AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

[shotgun09]

The additional charges of Assault from the two dudes makes me scratch my head. There was no assault, they both got away and jumped the fence back to Mexico. They were never touched, nor assaulted. Feeling like they were "hunted"??? That is their claim!
That's like " MOM!!! She's LOOKING at me..!!!!!"

You can't charge someone with assault, because of your own feelings. Nothing was done to them. MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

It's an AK47. This Army girl doubts a backpack is slowing it down.

GK shot the victim with what defense documents identify as a rifle. GK claims AK47's were pointed at him, thus he retrieved his rifle.​

‘Innocent’ Arizona rancher files full-throated defense after Mexican national shot dead on property

The Arizona husband, father, and grandfather who was charged with murdering a Mexican national on his ranch has filed a full-throated defense.

lawandcrime.com

 

[WingsOverTX]

Climbing over things or the suspect taking some sort of covered lower position could explain the wound, I'd not thought of that.

Though the prosecution and witnesses makes no mention of scrambling over obstacles, only of them running away.

Even with a low position, there is still that apparent sharply angled trajectory. That I think would still need a further explanation if he was as far away as stated when the bullets were fired. - I wonder, could it be that he fired at their feet rather than over their heads? A bullet deflecting off of something on the ground and up into the victim could also explain that angle. Also a far more reckless place to aim, so worth lying about.



There seems to be some confusion on exactly where he was. The LE all seem to agree the shots were fired from near his porch and travelled a ,80-100 yard distance through a wooded area. The witnesses mention him coming out of the bushes and being something like 10ft away.

So did they approach far closer to the house than it seems? Was he not by the porch when they first encountered him or when the bullets were fired? Did he take potshots at a distant group or did they get relatively close as he first stated? Did the victim continue to run some distance before he fell?

I would really love to see photos of this location and the relative positions of the people involved. There is far too much up in the air to draw any real conclusions.

Using Google Earth you can see the terrain is pretty open away from GK's home. Here's a screenshot.

 

[Telltale]

The additional charges of Assault from the two dudes makes me scratch my head. There was no assault, they both got away and jumped the fence back to Mexico. They were never touched, nor assaulted. Feeling like they were "hunted"??? That is their claim!
That's like " MOM!!! She's LOOKING at me..!!!!!"

You can't charge someone with assault, because of your own feelings. Nothing was done to them. MOO

I mean you absolutely can.

In many places, deliberately or recklessly putting someone in fear of immediate violence can count as an assault. Firing 'warning shots' in someone's direction (without sufficient justification like self defence) would more than qualify.

I've not looked into Arizona law in particular, but considering they added on those charges I'm going to guess they have a similar definition. Since it's the states position he had no justification for firing those shots, it makes sense for them to also charge him for the people he admits he fired towards - but missed.

 

[Telltale]

Using Google Earth you can see the terrain is pretty open away from GK's home. Here's a screenshot.
View attachment 405701

Ty for this, it does appear fairly open, but there are areas of trees and bush. Unfortunately (I am assuming) it can't be zoomed in anywhere near enough to see what ground level features would be in play in this situation.

Edit: found a few pictures here though that are supposed to be his ranch. If that is the covered porch to the front, I wonder if that wall is there and if they were beyond it?

Also it appears to me that the ranch is raised somewhat, which again goes back to that bullet angle. Though, of course we have no firm located of any of the parties involved.

 

[WingsOverTX]

Ty for this, it does appear fairly open, but there are areas of trees and bush. Unfortunately (I am assuming) it can't be zoomed in anywhere near enough to see what ground level features would be in play in this situation.

No street view but someone who knows how to research satellite images might be able to get 3D views. Earlier in the thread the spot on E Sagebrush Rd where the body was found was marked but I can't find it now. It's a fur piece from his porch.

MOO

 

[pentimento]

Ty for this, it does appear fairly open, but there are areas of trees and bush. Unfortunately (I am assuming) it can't be zoomed in anywhere near enough to see what ground level features would be in play in this situation.

This was posted earlier from Daily Mail. Actually, if the victims were running towards the border from a location on the left, it could explain the right-side entry of the bullet to the torso. One of the witnesses did say that they were a few yards from the road, and I'm presuming they meant that dirt road that veers to the left from the center of the image. JMO.

ETA: This terrain is not flat at this angle. There appears to be a slight incline, as you can see on the left portion of the road where the terrain dips slightly (like an intermittent stream) and then rises. If the victim was running towards the right on this image, and on an incline, it could explain the trajectory of the fatal bullet. JMO.

Arizona prosecutors say rancher 'hunted' Mexican migrants

George Alan Kelly returned to court today along with prosecutors in Santa Cruz County, Arizona, as prosecutors accused him of 'hunting' migrants with a rifle and lying to police.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[NeverPersonal]

Complicated:

Victim in Kino Springs shooting identified as Nogales, Sonora man

The Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office said Friday that it had tentatively identified the man who was shot and killed Monday in the Kino Springs area as Gabriel Cuen Buitimea,

www.nogalesinternational.com

Arizona statute justifies the use of deadly force on one’s own property if the individual believes it “immediately necessary” to prevent an act of trespassing. Several other statutes – known also as “stand your ground” laws – defend the use of physical or deadly force when the individual fears a threat and believes the force is warranted.

deputies returned and, at 6:24 p.m., located the body of a deceased adult Hispanic male on Kelly’s property, 100 to 150 yards from Kelly's home.

federal court records show that Cuen Butimea had a history of illegal border-crossings and deportations in and around Nogales, with the most recent documented case coming in 2016.


Deceased has a history of illegal border-crossing, apparently did not enter the USA legally this time, either.

Accused has a legal right to protect himself, his family, and his home.

imho The Daily Mail is far removed from border Arizona.

Waiting to see how this one plays out.

<modsnip>

Only have read 2 pages into this so I guess keep that in mind with my comments here bc I'm learning as I go! However... my gut says:

Unsure how protecting his home means shooting someone who is 100 - 150 yards from your home.
Sounds quite trigger happy to me.

Feeling sad for Gabriel and his family. RIP.

<modsnip - off topic>

 

[Telltale]

There are a few more photos of the house in this Daily Mail article - looks like the porch wraps around at least two sides of the house.

The New York Post has a view of the landscape. It doesn't mention exactly where it was taken, but it's probably safe to assume it's near-by. Looks like there would be a fair amount of cover, but open enough that you would not be climbing or scrambling over bushes or other obstacles while running away.

IMO taken together (and without knowing exact locations) the house appears raised above the surrounding bushland. Even without standing on the porch, it seems you would be firing from a somewhat raised position anywhere near the house.

I wonder if he took a defensive position behind the wall at the bottom of the garden? That might explain being lower than expected I suppose, though you would think at a detail like that would be mentioned, plus with trees/grass/scrub it would be a more difficult to see them.

With so many unknown variables it's certainly far from impossible he could have shot the victim, the full facts may even make it unarguable. I am interested in hearing more details on the mechanics of it though. How much ballistics can definitively prove? With the lack of a bullet and the gap between the shots and the body being found, (despite a police area search) the states case will get a hell of a lot harder if they have to also convince the jury it was even the suspect who shot him.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I suggested in an earlier post that it's possible one of the armed migrants accidentally fired the shot that struck the victim after Mr Kelly fired warning shots.

One of the group may have been directly behind C-B armed with a rifle, was startled by Mr Kelly's gunfire then stumbled with his finger on the trigger causing an accidental discharge with the gun being low and angled upward.

That may account for the the entry wound being low in the back and the exit wound being high in the chest. JMO.

Case of Nogales rancher charged with murder moves to trial after witness dramatically details shooting

Witness testimony revealed new details about the case of George Alan Kelly, the Nogales rancher accused of murder.

www.azcentral.com

 

[Cool Cats]

Only have read 2 pages into this so I guess keep that in mind with my comments here bc I'm learning as I go! However... my gut says:

Unsure how protecting his home means shooting someone who is 100 - 150 yards from your home.
Sounds quite trigger happy to me.

Feeling sad for Gabriel and his family. RIP.

<modsnip - off topic>

Right. Should be thought of in human terms only.

A man was walking on GK's property apparently unarmed. For the "crime" of trespassing, he was shot to death.

Take illegal immigrant out of the equation.

 

[Telltale]

There is also the question of the gunshot(s) that supposedly went off that triggered the suspect shooting in the first place

IMO looking at the timeline of calls Kelly made. I can't see much reason to disbelieve he did at the time of the first and second call, at least hear a gunshot. (Unless you want to go back to the 'hunting for sport' theory and every call to LE, including the one calling them out to look around, was covering things up.) He had lived out there for 30 years without shooting anyone and crossings were common. From what we know I don't think seeing a few migrants passing through would have prompted those frantic calls by themselves.

So one has to ask, if indeed he did hear a gunshot, and was mistaken about it being directed towards him, what did they shoot at?

 

[Charlot123]

Some of Kelly's changing stories

Charges downgraded for Arizona rancher who fatally shot migrant on his property

George Kelly’s lawyer, Brenna Larkin, entered a not-guilty plea on his behalf Friday after prosecutors downgraded his charges from first- to second-degree murder.

nypost.com

This is why, given his age, they need to do neurocognitive evaluation to understand how much he remembers and how good his reasoning is. MOO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

There is also the question of the gunshot(s) that supposedly went off that triggered the suspect shooting in the first place

IMO looking at the timeline of calls Kelly made. I can't see much reason to disbelieve he did at least think he heard gunshot(s) originally. (Unless you want to go back to the 'hunting for sport' theory and every call to LE, including the one calling them out to look around, was covering things up.)

So one has to ask, if indeed he did hear a gunshot. What did they shoot at?

I would want to know who "they" were that fired the shot. Another separate group of armed migrants? That would suggest a rival group shooting at another group of migrants.

JMO.

 

[Soulmagent]

I don't know much about this case, but aren't people allowed to protect their property from trespass? Stand your ground? Surprised he was even arrested.

Yes ,but only if your community/DA supports that mind set . Otherwise you get caught up in the system .
We judge people by civilized society , that IMO is great but most of your guys have never been hungry or cold or not had water for months . People on juries judge people by their experiences and a ton of people today really think that LE is coming to help .Like call the cops and they will save you . They dont and cant , they just dust off the dirt and pick up the bodies afterwards . In a real threat if you do not feel your life is more important than a violent criminals ,you could lose your life to one. Your choice, in the long run for now, in the US . However lots of people think my life is not worth protecting with a gun , people who have been trained to think only god and LE have the right to protect my life and i should be a silent victim . Anyhow I love our legal system and understand how it got here but our citizens lack solid foundations, .

 

[Deleted member 39678]

This is why, given his age, they need to do neurocognitive evaluation to understand how much he remembers and how good his reasoning is. MOO.

I want to hear and or view any recordings made by LE of their interactions with Mr Kelly.

Did they somehow cause him to be confused by the manner of their questioning? Did their questioning affect his responses or his memory of the events leading up to the death of C-B? JMO.

 

[Soulmagent]

The person who was killed was found unarmed, the 73 year old man admitted to shooting towards them at over 300ft away. The victim was shot in the back

There is no stand your ground here.

Hey so what if ,
That radio was like a scanner ,tuned into say the 911 dispatch ...and the other seven guys circled back to get a back pack ..and a 1700-5000 dollar gun . I am undocumented and guy is dead....I am not leaving money for immigration , I am taking dudes gun . Plus 8 people facing charges or I shoot CB in the back ,because I know the cops are coming and i got to slow them down.
<modsnip>

 

[Telltale]

I would want to know who "they" were that fired the shot. Another separate group of armed migrants? That would suggest a rival group shooting at another group of migrants.

JMO.

Or within the group themselves.

I really hate this argument because I know a bunch of people who think of migrants as less than people will make it.

This migrant group ran back across the boarder after all this went down. I am assuming that the way LE went looking for witnesses was to go and ask who crossed with the victim. I can't see there would be much of a way to varify who was telling the truth. I doubt the coyotes kept paperwork on it.

The victim/witness accounts, at least as reported, appear to have some significant inconsistencies with the forensic evidence. What's more, there probably are benefits to being a key witness in an important murder trial when the alternative is desperate boarder crossings to be exploited in the US - doubt the state will leave their witnesses in a dangerous boarder camp where they could inconveniently vanish. Added to that it probably is in the smugglers best interest, safety and business to have a man accused of shooting at their people be locked up for murder.

Saying this feels very right-wing conspiracy - a wild excuse to let a rich rancher off for killing this poor man. At the same time, it's not like the boarder snuggling buisness is run by altruistic fair minded folk just trying to help poor South Americans find a better life.

Tldr I can't help but think the people questioning witness credibility may, unfortunately, be raising valid points to be considered. Which will be yet another complication for the prosecution.

 

[Soulmagent]

I would want to know who "they" were that fired the shot. Another separate group of armed migrants? That would suggest a rival group shooting at another group of migrants.

JMO.

If he knows that ,his fraud is up , i think. I work so i power post.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

If he knows that ,his fraud is up , i think. I work so i power post.

Sorry but I don't understand your post. Who is "he" in your post? What fraud?