AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #11

[oceanblueeyes]

:seeya:

BBM: Yes ... an "adequate cover-up" in the "darkness of night" ... now how in the world" could a "stranger" -- get rid of any and all evidence, trace evidence, etc. ? ? ?


snipped from : http://www.kvoa.com/videos/police-say-whoever-did-this-did-an-adequate-job/

Here is the full quote from Lt. Fabian Pacheco :

"Whoever is involved did an adequate job of really covering a lot of things that we could possibly look at."


BBM: JMO and MOO, but my "interpretation" is that whoever did this, knew what they were doing as well as knew what to dispose of so that LE would NOT find it ...

JMO and :moo::moo::moo:

How did David Westerfield accomplish the same thing? He crept in the Van Dam home at night while the family was sleeping and he went upstairs to Danielle's room and took the sleeping child out of her home in order to rape and then murderer and toss her body away like trash.

And he did not leave any evidence that he was the one that had come in to that home either. Not one piece of his DNA left behind in the home including hair or fibers.

Couey and Duncan who were night crawler invaders too left no evidence in the home showing they were the ones who had destroyed these innocent children when they kidnapped them right out of their own homes with adults present and dogs.

IMO

 

[CinnamonGirl]

Lots of money being made in this case, fundraiser after fundraiser. Just saying.

 

[Pensfan]

:seeya:

BBM: Yes ... an "adequate cover-up" in the "darkness of night" ... now how in the world" could a "stranger" -- get rid of any and all evidence, trace evidence, etc. ? ? ?


snipped from : http://www.kvoa.com/videos/police-say-whoever-did-this-did-an-adequate-job/

Here is the full quote from Lt. Fabian Pacheco :

"Whoever is involved did an adequate job of really covering a lot of things that we could possibly look at."


BBM: JMO and MOO, but my "interpretation" is that whoever did this, knew what they were doing as well as knew what to dispose of so that LE would NOT find it ...

JMO and :moo::moo::moo:

The reasons why someone stages a crime scene:
-redirect the investigation away from the most logical suspect, or
-protect the victim or the victim’s family

 

[katydid23]

I am not sure.

I can easily find the county public records that show the Celis' bought their current home in 2006
here
http://www.recorder.pima.gov/

looks like they did it through a major bank

and in 2005 they had a reconveyance deed from what I assume is their previous house?

FROM EARLIER POST:

How did they buy their home with 3592 sq feet when their previous home was almost foreclosed a year before this purchase? Their previous home was listed on the foreclosed homes' list for Tucson.

After the real estate market crashed in 2008, if you don't have perfect credit it is difficult to get a mortgage. If you have a poor credit rating, you are required to pay a sizable cash down payment. The price of their home was $246,000.

A 20% down payment = $49,200 cash down payment. Dayummmmmmm. Where did they get this huge sum of cash when they bank almost took their last home (only a year earlier) and foreclosed on it for non-payment?
http://www.trulia.com/homes/Arizona/...ucson-AZ-85711
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/56.../8510144_zpid/
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #11

 

[Pensfan]

I am not sure.

I can easily find the county public records that show the Celis' bought their current home in 2006
here
http://www.recorder.pima.gov/

looks like they did it through a major bank

and in 2005 they had a reconveyance deed from what I assume is their previous house?

Did they own two homes?

 

[dog.gone.cute]

I don't think this was an abduction and certainly not by a stranger. Nope. I get the sense the house was staged to look one way to make it seem as if someone came in through the window, but really something else altogether happened.

:rocker: I totally agree ... well said, and "straight and to the point" ...

:rocker: JMO and MOO ...

 

[gitana1]

Watch the youtube video. See how tiny the house was and count the large number of people sleeping inside it that night. None of the story is logical, IMO. :notgood:

His grown children have posted here, and have complete faith in their Dad. I am going to believe what they saw and experienced over the years, and will support his version of the story because of that. JMO

Thanks katydid23. His children who post here were in the house that night. What is the alternative? That the parents suddenly decided to abuse their much adored sunset baby? After never abusing five older children? Or are we falling back on that recurring, "there was an accident and instead of calling 911 in the vain hopes of resuscitation, we are going to make things a million times worse and fake an abduction"? Or, is it a case of the father gifting the child to his affair?

No one in that house heard a thing. The siblings were teens and older. No yelling, no doors opening or closing, nothing. IMO, unless that whole family is on on some improbable cover-up, we must look at the more likely suspect, despite the "impossibility" of gaining access to Christopher (Emma Bradshaw):

Prime Suspect, Emma Manzanares Bradshaw.
Emma Bradshaw attempted to get a hold of Christophers Father the night of the disappearance calling numerous times up until midnight.
The front door was open when the family discovered Christopher missing.
Family had been receiving hang up calls for over 6 months before Christopher's disappearance. They stopped the day he disappeared and then resumed again several months after his disappearance. The CSPD traced the calls to Emma Bradshaw.
Christopher's family was being stalked. Phone records indicate she was even calling the victims Grandparents one month before his disappearance. Their number was unlisted and they had never met her.
Christopher was taken from his crib between 12:30 a.m. and 6:00 a.m.
Christopher's Parents had been seperated and were reconcilling. It was the first night that his Father spent the night back home.
This suspect, Emma Bradshaw has prior police reports of breaking and entering.
Emma Bradshaw has previous charges of stalking and harassing a married man who was trying to end his relationship with her. Per court documents, Emma Bradshaw entered the home of a family and took family photos off the wall and sat outside their childrens school.

http://www.findchristopher.com/index.html

I think the Abeyta case is a lesson for us when it comes to similar cases, like this one. We may have no idea of the facts of a case until years later. Christopher's case is a reminder to me that it IS possible to sneak in a home and take a child, even out from under it's parent's noses.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Did they own two homes?

They did own two homes at on time. IIRC, I saw where they sold it.

As far as having big down payments I have learned that is very common even by people much younger that the Celis family. I watch HGTV all the time and it is very common even when buying their first home that they put down a tremendous amount of money down when buy a home nowadays.

IMO

 

[DollyPardonMe]

I thought I heard NG talk about the clothes she was last seen wearing as a tank top and shorts, and NG thought it was strange for a child not to be in Pj's.

The temp in Tucson on April 20th was 94 degrees. I lived in Tucson for 10 years and shorts and a tank top were normal to sleep in when it was so hot, if that was indeed what she slept in that night. So, it wouldnt be that strange!

 

[Prof]

FROM EARLIER POST:

How did they buy their home with 3592 sq feet when their previous home was almost foreclosed a year before this purchase? Their previous home was listed on the foreclosed homes' list for Tucson.

After the real estate market crashed in 2008, if you don't have perfect credit it is difficult to get a mortgage. If you have a poor credit rating, you are required to pay a sizable cash down payment. The price of their home was $246,000.

A 20% down payment = $49,200 cash down payment. Dayummmmmmm. Where did they get this huge sum of cash when they bank almost took their last home (only a year earlier) and foreclosed on it for non-payment?
http://www.trulia.com/homes/Arizona/...ucson-AZ-85711
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/56.../8510144_zpid/
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #11

IDK Katy. Is this your post? I am not sure where this post gets the information.

The Celis home is not 3592 square feet. This post does not say when the Celis bought the home.

The records in Pima show the Celis bought the home in 2006. www.recorder.pima.gov
The records do show an almost foreclosure on that home just last year, but it was saved, and it was done through a prominent lawyer with 50 years in the Arizona bar.

I am not sure what you are asking, I guess... I apologize.

 

[Pensfan]

Respectfully @ Gitana:

The alternatives in the "Christopher" case are the same as in all missing children cases. Some possibilities are:
-accidental death and then a coverup because the parent(s) were afraid
-fatal abuse and then a coverup
-the disappearance was a passive aggressive action to punish the other spouse

The phone calls to the Abeyta home might have only been Gil's girlfriend looking for Gil or hoping he would pick up and not his wife.

How did the girlfriend get Gil's parent's unlisted phone number if he didn't give it to her?

Gil was still giving the girlfriend gifts after he reunited with his wife and their child had disappeared.

Read about how the mother told LE that her home was so disheveled on the night Gil came home to her (and baby disappeared) because the family dumped out all the drawers on the floors looking for the 7-month-old baby. A seven-month-old baby inside the drawers? Something was "unhealthy" in that home, IMO. Maybe Gil returned to his wife out of extreme worry.

 

[huckleberryhound]

:seeya:

BBM: Yes ... an "adequate cover-up" in the "darkness of night" ... now how in the world" could a "stranger" -- get rid of any and all evidence, trace evidence, etc. ? ? ?


snipped from : http://www.kvoa.com/videos/police-say-whoever-did-this-did-an-adequate-job/

Here is the full quote from Lt. Fabian Pacheco :

"Whoever is involved did an adequate job of really covering a lot of things that we could possibly look at."


BBM: JMO and MOO, but my "interpretation" is that whoever did this, knew what they were doing as well as knew what to dispose of so that LE would NOT find it ...

JMO and :moo::moo::moo:

When I read this quote from police, I thought about that maybe there were video surveillance cameras nearby the house that were obscured that night, thus preventing police from looking at them, but I'm sure there could also be less literal interpretations of this sentence.

 

[liz b.]

Well, I guess I can think of ONE scenario. not leaving any forensic evidence behind could possibly be the work of a person, or persons who are well versed in abductions and kidnapping...MOO Almost professional. MOO

What did Isabel's brother say to the storekeeper ? " She has been kidnapped " I am guessing that he heard this from SC. MOO

This is, IMO, what the "sensitive information " is all about...

Not good at all

 

[gitana1]

Respectfully @ Gitana:

The alternatives in the "Christopher" case are the same as in all missing children cases.
-accidental death and then a coverup because the parents were afraid
-fatal abuse and then a coverup

The phone calls to the Abeyta home might have only been Gil's girlfriend looking for Gil or hoping he would pick up and not his wife.

How did the girlfriend get Gil's parent's unlisted phone number if he didn't give it to her?

Gil was still giving the girlfriend gifts after he reunited with his wife and their child disappeared.

Just the "alternatives" I suggested. They both seem very improbable to me for the reasons I listed: The older children were home that night and heard nothing. So was this a case of "silent" abuse? So silent none of the other (adult) children in the home heard it? And why would this couple suddenly become abusive after never being abusive to the five older children? And decide to abuse a much adored sunset baby?

Then lets talk about the "accident" theory I keep hearing people suggest. I will try to quote the ME in Caylee's case. 100% of the time, (she said), parents report accidental deaths. Loving parents refuse to believe there is no hope. Even when the body is blue. Even when there is no heart beat, no breath and the body is cold to the touch.

Parents aren't thinking about, "Gee, I might go to jail for neglect." Yeah, Jose Baez would have us believe that this happens all the time. I think he's nuts.

I don't believe it in that case and I don't believe it in this case.

Oh, and where did you hear that Gil kept giving gifts to Emma after the disappearance of the child?

 

[katydid23]

IDK Katy. Is this your post? I am not sure where this post gets the information.

The Celis home is not 3592 square feet. This post does not say when the Celis bought the home.

The records in Pima show the Celis bought the home in 2006. www.recorder.pima.gov
The records do show an almost foreclosure on that home just last year, but it was saved, and it was done through a prominent lawyer with 50 years in the Arizona bar.

I am not sure what you are asking, I guess... I apologize.

That post was brought over from an earlier thread, and was originally posted by Pensfan. It was saying that their earlier home address was found on a list of foreclosed homes.

I think the confusion was how it was saved, if it was so close to foreclosure.
My only question, comes after their long speech about never needing any financial help or ever having to borrow money. How else would they get one home out of foreclosure and land so quickly into a new one, without help or borrowing some money? I guess it just seems odd, to be able to get a bank loan to buy a home after just being in foreclosure one year earlier.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Lots of money being made in this case, fundraiser after fundraiser. Just saying.

Ya got that right! It didn't take long for the merchandising to begin. Website set up when Isabel had only been missing for nine days! The parents said that they would never stop looking for their daughter. Sounds like they're in this for the long "haul" Cha-ching. :twocents:

Where is Isabel?

 

[AnaTeresa]

They did own two homes at on time. IIRC, I saw where they sold it.

As far as having big down payments I have learned that is very common even by people much younger that the Celis family. I watch HGTV all the time and it is very common even when buying their first home that they put down a tremendous amount of money down when buy a home nowadays.

IMO

Yeah, I really don't think that's an abnormally large down payment. Then again, I saved up $10,000 for a down payment on a car. I originally wanted to pay in full, but my older car died before I could get there. Lots of people do this - not everyone wants to have a large amount of debt hanging over their head. Lots of money management people preach about saving up larger down payments for big purchases. I don't consider that amount a large down payment from my perspective - I would term it large once it was over $100,000.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Well, I guess I can think of ONE scenario. not leaving any forensic evidence behind could possibly be the work of a person, or persons who are well versed in abductions and kidnapping...MOO Almost professional. MOO

What did Isabel's brother say to the storekeeper ? " She has been kidnapped " I am guessing that he heard this from SC. MOO

This is, IMO, what the "sensitive information " is all about...

Not good at all

What is odd about saying Isa had been kidnapped? He made that comment after the police had already been called and was on the scene looking for her too.

If I got up and my child was not there and a screen was off my window and the blinds askew then the first thing I would think of is someone has kidnapped my child and if I rushed around the neighborhood and couldnt find my child anywhere that would just confirm my fears that someone has kidnapped them.

IMO

 

[cluciano63]

I wonder if LE's words.."adequate job...covering up thing we could look at"...has anything to do with the camera not working and/or being faced upward? Just thinking of the words "look at."

 

[Prof]

CN2 Souls first discovered on thread 5 the error in floor plans in the county records for the Celis home. The Celis home does not have 1.5 stories.


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