AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #18

[white rabbit]

HTH is Hope That Helps/-ed

lmao! yep TH'd.

 

[emeraldeyes85]

It was my understanding that a kidnapping involved the napper asking for ransom while an abduction is not...but doesnt that depened upon jurisdiction too?


ETA...in all my criminal law classes, we never got into this topic in depth....so maybe im off in left field somewhere....and im not near any of my law books...

As noted the differences are subtle but different enough that one can read between the lines and make some pretty accurate assumptions based on which term LE uses, at least in this jurisdiction, I cant speak for others.

 

[Gardenlady]

Difference between kidnapping and abduction,
Kidnapping:The substantial interference with another person's liberty without consent or legally authority.

Abduction:the criminal act of capturing and carrying away by force a family member; if a man's wife is abducted it is a crime against the family relationship and against the wife.

1. Kidnapping from lawful guardianship is committed only in respect of a male under 16 years of age or a female minor under 18 years of age; As far as abduction is concerned, you can abduct any person of any age.
2. In kidnapping, the minor is just taken away. Force need not be use. However, in the case of abduction, force, compulsion, or deceitful means are used.
3. The consent of the victim is immaterial in kidnapping. In the case of abduction, the intention of the offender is not relevant.
4. The kidnapped person must be removed from the care of the lawful guardian. A child without a guardian cannot be kidnapped. Abduction has reference exclusively to the person abducted.
5. Kidnapping is a substantive offence; Abduction by itself is not a substantive offence.
Sources: http://india.smetoolkit.org/india/e...-difference-between-kidnapping-and-abduction-

This is from an Site in India though, just to clarify.

I think after all the reading, I'm just going to chalk the LE use of the word "abduction" up to their own jargon, meaning that Isa was taken in some unspecified manner, and that we really can't read anything ino their use of the word, at least as yet.

 

[Eileen730]

Yep 4/20 is a pot smoking "holiday" of sorts. Nothing bad happens, just... People toke up, lol. There have been gatherings, legalization meet ups, etc, on the date, but really there's nothing nefarious about it.

IMO, there's probably nothing LESS dangerous than pot smokers

LOL i agree pot heads sit home and smoke and eat snacks they are mellow.
Alcoholics on the other hand drive drunk Kill our kids with their cars beat their wives and at times are nasty!

Ban the booz legalize the pot!:rocker:

 

[Eileen730]

This is from an Site in India though, just to clarify.

I think after all the reading, I'm just going to chalk the LE use of the word "abduction" up to their own jargon, meaning that Isa was taken in some unspecified manner, and that we really can't read anything ino their use of the word, at least as yet.

LOL OHHHHHHHHHH so sorry! lol

 

[Curious Me]

Yep 4/20 is a pot smoking "holiday" of sorts. Nothing bad happens, just... People toke up, lol. There have been gatherings, legalization meet ups, etc, on the date, but really there's nothing nefarious about it.

IMO, there's probably nothing LESS dangerous than pot smokers

That's the day to play Bob Marley music!

 

[time]

Is this even close to being a correct assessment?

An abductor takes a victim for his own selfish purposes and tries to maintain a low or anonymous profile. A kidnapper eventually makes his abduction known, either to the media or strictly to the immediate family of his victim. He uses his captive as a bargaining tool, whereas the typical abductor keeps his captive as secret as possible.

LE (in the last news conference, I believe) gave their own, very simple definition of 'abducted'... not the exact words probably but they said it means someone took her out of the house, she did not leave the house or wander off on her own. I believe this was said very early on in the news conference to clarify their use of the term. To me, that says a 'kidnapping' is just a more specific incidence of an abduction? It would be good for someone to go and quote exactly what was said, I think.

 

[mamamia54]

This is from an Site in India though, just to clarify.

I think after all the reading, I'm just going to chalk the LE use of the word "abduction" up to their own jargon, meaning that Isa was taken in some unspecified manner, and that we really can't read anything ino their use of the word, at least as yet.

Oh I'm reading a lot into it now. Which as I've stated as the reason why none of the family haven't been ruled out yet. Like I said, "Whole New Ballgame", for me at least.

 

[prima.facie]

As noted the differences are subtle but different enough that one can read between the lines and make some pretty accurate assumptions based on which term LE uses, at least in this jurisdiction, I cant speak for others.

yeah i completely get what you are saying....

 

[Gardenlady]

As noted the differences are subtle but different enough that one can read between the lines and make some pretty accurate assumptions based on which term LE uses, at least in this jurisdiction, I cant speak for others.

Ee, do you know of any other cases locally where LE have used "abduction" or "kidnapping" in a specific manner? I'm too lazy to go hunting the news sites lol.

And it's not that I don't believe you, just would be interesting to see which cases and circumstances they might have used it under.

 

[mamamia54]

LE (in the last news conference, I believe) gave their own, very simple definition of 'abducted'... not the exact words probably but they said it means someone took her out of the house, she did not leave the house or wander off on her own. I believe this was said very early on in the news conference to clarify their use of the term. To me, that says a 'kidnapping' is just a more specific incidence of an abduction? It would be good for someone to go and quote exactly what was said, I think.

"There's no indication whatsoever that Isabel just got up and left the house on her own," said Tucson police spokeswoman Sgt. Maria Hawke. "She left through the power, through assistance, of someone else. Either somebody took her or inticed her out of the residence in some way, shape or form and so for that reason we cannot just say that she got up and walked out."
http://www.azfamily.com/news/Police-search-Tucson-wash-for-Isabel-Celis-151631445.html

 

[Gardenlady]

That's the day to play Bob Marley music!

You're gonna make me break out iTunes and queue up some BM now lol...

 

[GutFeeling!]

:floorlaugh: for some reason that made me burst out laughing lol

lmao! yep TH'd.

 

[Innocent Bystander]

Here is a link for Websleuths Lingo.

NEW Websleuths Lingo - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Eileen730]

Kidnapping!
Under federal and state law, kidnapping is commonly defined as the taking of a person from one place to another against his or her will, or the confining of a person to a controlled space. Some kidnapping laws require that the taking or confining be for an unlawful purpose, such as extortion or the facilitation of a crime. A parent without legal custody rights may be charged with kidnapping for taking his or her own child, in certain circumstances.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/kidnapping.html

 

[mamamia54]

Here is a link for Websleuths Lingo.

NEW Websleuths Lingo - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Someone hurry, do a look up for BBM cause what I picture when I see that is something NO ONE else wants to think about lol.

BBM= Bolded By Me

Ohh thank you lol.

 

[Kat]

IMO a kidnapping would first involve an abduction. A kidnapping is one form of abduction. Another form would be a parental abduction. A kidnapping is not called a kidnapping until the abductor makes some kind of demand. Until then, a kidnapping is called an abduction. JMO

IMO LE cannot call this a kidnapping until someone has made some kind of demand, be it for custody or money, or revenge.

That is why this case is under the larger umbrella of abuduction...IMO

LE has clearly stated in every presser that they are investigating both internal and external possibilities for Isa's dissappearance.

I'm with you on this Prof. And, an abduction IMHO means she was removed from the house by someone and did not leave on her own. They haven't called it a kidnapping because they don't know the who, what and why she was removed. So JMHO but I think the broad term of abduction is being used by LE to say they don't believe she left of her own accord.

(on another topic)

JMHO----LE saying they don't have any proof she's not alive, or something to that effect. Word play, double speak but not intended to deceive, it's intended not to answer the question directly. JMHO but I've seen these kind of answers with military and public officials. They aren't lying but they aren't saying what they know. KWIM? It means they don't have proof that she's alive, they dont' have proof she's dead IMHO. Just my take on it, I could always be wrong.

 

[Innocent Bystander]

Someone hurry, do a look up for BBM cause what I picture when I see that is something NO ONE else wants to think about lol.

LOL! :what:

 

[prima.facie]

Someone hurry, do a look up for BBM cause what I picture when I see that is something NO ONE else wants to think about lol.

Oh trust me...I thought the same thing when I first saw it...

....just sayn' :floorlaugh:

ETA....im hoping it is the same thing....haha maybe not? :floorlaugh:

 

[mamamia54]

Oh trust me...I thought the same thing when I first saw it...

....just sayn' :floorlaugh:

ETA....im hoping it is the same thing....haha maybe not? :floorlaugh:

Oh seriously dudes and dudettes I was soooo confused on that one. LOL