AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #19

[nursebeeme]

Peeps everyone is entitled to their opinion and their theory on this case. Back and forth over opinions is to be expected when there is more than one theory. Let's leave the snark and back and forth out of our posting. Thanks everyone.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Couple questions for any locals who may know.. Paul Birmingham is a local journalist/reporter who has really been used quite a bit as a local source for the national media reporting on Isa's case.. I know he states e has lived in the community his entire life.. what are locals opinion of him? I know some reporters are known for their accurate reporting where as some othrs are quite well known for their sensationalism.

Ikeep thinking about his claim about that according to him LE is very secure in what they know to have happened nd why to Isa.. he has stated numerous times LE are 90% certain but want to be that solid 100% in order to be certain the prosecution is successful. That along with that he believes there to be trafficking of narcotics or even humans that is at the heart of the case.

Those IMO are very very strong statements to make multiple times on national.. prime time news outlets..that LE IS 90% CERTAIN..

what do you all know about Paul Birmingham as well as his very strong statements attributed to LE?

TiA to anyone who has any local knowledge or opinion on PB and his statements.

 

[luvmydogs]

IMO if these parents are sincerly interested in getting thier little girl back they need to get more involved with reaching out to the media and less of the fundraiser campaining. The fundraiser skeem just doe's not sit well with me... They have raised enough money by now to get the flyers and banners done, they need to be out on the media where thier childs capture can see them, where they can get into the heart of this person and lure them into feeling guilty and getting Isa back to them.

Yes I find it so odd that they don't reach out to the media. I understand not feeling comfortable but why all is this dodging of the cameras. It just bothers me.

The Celis' would not speak on camera today.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Good post. This whole case is puzzling. I don't put a lot of stock into a cartel connection, but I put some into it.

I don't think, as I have said several times, this has to be a kidnapping for ransom or about selling drugs either. People posted about cartel kidnappings because someone asked if there EVER had been one. There is also abducting a child to sell them for illegal adoption or sex trafficking/child - probably a lot of these are never solved and the perp is not known, I don't know. I hate to think about that at all, but it happens and it's worth $$. It might have been easy to see pictures of Isa or see her at the ballpark and figure out where she lived too (so cartel or not).

There are a lot of various reason some organized crime element could be involved. I've even thought it could be someone knows or saw something and Isa was abducted to secure their secrecy (a couple others on here mentioned that also).

Yes, these could all seem like far fetched ideas, but this case also seems a bit weird. I don't know why Sergio and Rebecca seem so hinky, but for those who want to think they are innocent of hurting Isa it could be because there is some more twisted something or the other going on.

I think a lot of suspicion about Sergio comes from his demeanor on the 911 call. He did not meet most people's expectations on how he should have acted.

The same thing happened to this mother, Judy Smith, when she found her son murdered with his head severed in his bathroom. His head was found in another room.

Here is a link to an excerpt of her 911 call. When she is telling the 911 operator her son's head is missing she even laughs and she had nothing whatsoever to do with his murder.

The people of North Canton severely criticized Ms. Judy Smith for her reaction on the 911 call that was released through the media. While we can certainly empathize with Ms. Smith and think we know how we might react, we really don’t understand at all because we are not in her shoes.

http://unforgottenangels.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/brett-w-smith-a-horrific-crime-in-ohio/

 

[pieper4]

Couple questions for any locals who may know.. Paul Birmingham is a local journalist/reporter who has really been used quite a bit as a local source for the national media reporting on Isa's case.. I know he states e has lived in the community his entire life.. what are locals opinion of him? I know some reporters are known for their accurate reporting where as some othrs are quite well known for their sensationalism.

Ikeep thinking about his claim about that according to him LE is very secure in what they know to have happened nd why to Isa.. he has stated numerous times LE are 90% certain but want to be that solid 100% in order to be certain the prosecution is successful. That along with that he believes there to be trafficking of narcotics or even humans that is at the heart of the case.

Those IMO are very very strong statements to make multiple times on national.. prime time news outlets..that LE IS 90% CERTAIN..

what do you all know about Paul Birmingham as well as his very strong statements attributed to LE?

TiA to anyone who has any local knowledge or opinion on PB and his statements.

Personally, I never heard of him until that piece aired. Admittedly, I don't follow radio shows of any sort. He's got a talk show on the radio (both AM and FM) in the mornings. He cites his "#1 site for show prep" is the Drudge Report, so, yeah...

 

[liz b.]

Really great question. I hope that video reveals something.

This is gonna sound odd and maybe unpopular, but when I heard about that surveillance, I immediately wondered - could a perp have gotten knowledge of the Celis' activities by watching them? I'm not quite sure what vantage point those cameras had. I do hope it had a good one so LE can see who else came and went before she was abducted if not the night of her abduction - could lead to a suspect.

The cameras would show vehicles too ? I think they have led to a suspect(s) already...JMO

 

[johnQpublic]

Yes I find it so odd that they don't reach out to the media. I understand not feeling comfortable but why all is this dodging of the cameras. It just bothers me.

The Celis' would not speak on camera today.

IDK, being dodgy of the media and being unwilling to seek media sure doe's more harm than good in convincing the public eye that your not somewhat involved. Furthermore.... one could also wonder, IF there is some sort of capture out there that they must be thinking that this little girls parents don't care about thier daughter enought to deserve her back. That's ASSUMING there even is an abductor. Unfortunately I feel that if this indeed is a case of a third party abduction this couple will very likely never get her back. These parents need to do more. LE has made it very clear to the public that LE has never at any point said to them to refrain from media contact nor have they told them not to discuss the case. It is overwhelmingly blatently apparent these folks know more about what happened here and they are just stringing the local public along in whatever morally corrupt agenda they may have. I hope they just have her whisked away somewhere and she is still alive. If they truely don't have anything to hide as RC has said then they need to get up there and invite the media into this case and spill thier heart out, give exposure to everything they know of thats been investigated. Who Cares about the prosecution of the case, what matters here is getting Isabel back, prosecution should be the least of thier worries... First get your kid back, let the DA worry about making thier case against the person who did it and by all means if your not guilty, quit acting like you got something to hide.

 

[HannibalTLC]

I am not sure the perp even cleaned up. Honestly I cant see John Couey have the brains to remove all evidence he was even in the Lunsford home. And Joe Duncan didnt leave a piece of evidence in the Greone home connecting him to the murders and kidnappings. Heck LE in Idaho didnt even have a clue who he was until he brought Shasta back to her hometown. Now Westerfield may have had the intelligence needed to cover his tracks when he came into the Van Dam home when he went all the way up the stairs to Danielle's bedroom and took her out of the home leaving no evidence behind. Neither did Mitchell when he took Elizabeth out of the Smarts home.

I just think sometimes these scumbags get lucky.

IMO

At the risk of jumping in and being eaten alive as a newbie, I have to say I concur with your points of the above cases about each particular perp not leaving evidence behind (or identified by LE as the case may be).

As I looked at the statement made by LE, I took the operative word *adequate* in the sentence to mean that perhaps the clean up could have been better (like being told your dissertation is "adequate" rather than exceptional?). If something is adequate, it is OK, but could have been better (which means they maybe they have identified room for improvement), which begs the question...how could the perp have improved his or her technique in tackling his or her breadcrumbs?

Just a thought and only my opinion...

 

[time]

I think a lot of suspicion about Sergio comes from his demeanor on the 911 call. He did not meet most people's expectations on how he should have acted.

The same thing happened to this mother, Judy Smith, when she found her son murdered with his head severed in his bathroom. His head was found in another room.

Here is a link to an excerpt of her 911 call. When she is telling the 911 operator her son's head is missing she even laughs and she had nothing whatsoever to do with his murder.

The people of North Canton severely criticized Ms. Judy Smith for her reaction on the 911 call that was released through the media. While we can certainly empathize with Ms. Smith and think we know how we might react, we really don’t understand at all because we are not in her shoes.

http://unforgottenangels.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/brett-w-smith-a-horrific-crime-in-ohio/

I agree about the 911 call - not sure I found it nearly as hinky as others. I know I've said this, but I found RC to be at least as hinky. I still don't know if I think they are guilty. Wish we knew more about the CPS stuff or anything for that matter!

Per 911 calls, I'm of the mind is is not calmness or nervous laughter that is bothersome. I think hinky 911 calls are either overly dramatic or the person is flat sounding. I think there are some clues in them sometimes like if it's more about the person calling than the person dying/murdered/missing. As far as Sergio's 911 call, it could be possible he just really thought they were going to find Isa somewhere or it all just hadn't had time to sink in. I don't know, it's not clear to me one way or the other concerning his call.

I think the Celis' could be guilty, but on the other not guilty at this point and they just are acting strange because they don't want their personal lives to be examined (regardless of what RC said). :waitasec:

 

[johnQpublic]

There is probably a better chance of finding the truth about JFK than there is about figuring out what happened in this case... It's sad, frustraiting and upsetting.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

IDK, being dodgy of the media and being unwilling to seek media sure doe's more harm than good in convincing the public eye that your not somewhat involved. Furthermore.... one could also wonder, IF there is some sort of capture out there that they must be thinking that this little girls parents don't care about thier daughter enought to deserve her back. That's ASSUMING there even is an abductor. Unfortunately I feel that if this indeed is a case of a third party abduction this couple will very likely never get her back. These parents need to do more. LE has made it very clear to the public that LE has never at any point said to them to refrain from media contact nor have they told them not to discuss the case. It is overwhelmingly blatently apparent these folks know more about what happened here and they are just stringing the local public along in whatever morally corrupt agenda they may have. I hope they just have her whisked away somewhere and she is still alive. If they truely don't have anything to hide as RC has said then they need to get up there and invite the media into this case and spill thier heart out, give exposure to everything they know of thats been investigated. Who Cares about the prosecution of the case, what matters here is getting Isabel back, prosecution should be the least of thier worries... First get your kid back, let the DA worry about making thier case against the person who did it and by all means if your not guilty, quit acting like you got something to hide.

I do understand what you are saying.

But I have never seen LE say they wanted Isa's parents to discuss the case. IMO, that would be very usual because LE wants to keep the details of the case close to their vests.

Just like Marlene Lamar would not talk about the particulars of her daughters case when asked certain questions because she said she did not want to impede the investigation. I am sure LE told her not to reveal any details such as confirming those were the actual clothes she was wearing that morning and other things we had to speculate about for almost two months because Sierra's family would not divulge detail information.

I think LE wasnts Isa's parents to come out and plead for Isa's return hoping to keep the tips coming in. JMO.

IMO

 

[johnQpublic]

Personally.. JMO of course but if I knew information that could help get my child back... I really wouldn't care at all what LE told me about what they prefer me not to talk about. We live in a country of Free Speech and if I felt pleading to the media everything I could to contribute to finding the kid, I would.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree about the 911 call - not sure I found it nearly as hinky as others. I know I've said this, but I found RC to be at least as hinky. I still don't know if I think they are guilty. Wish we knew more about the CPS stuff or anything for that matter!

Per 911 calls, I'm of the mind is is not calmness or nervous laughter that is bothersome. I think hinky 911 calls are either overly dramatic or the person is flat sounding. I think there are some clues in them sometimes like if it's more about the person calling than the person dying/murdered/missing. As far as Sergio's 911 call, it could be possible he just really thought they were going to find Isa somewhere or it all just hadn't had time to sink in. I don't know, it's not clear to me one way or the other concerning his call.

I think the Celis' could be guilty, but on the other not guilty at this point and they just are acting strange because they don't want their personal lives to be examined (regardless of what RC said). :waitasec:

It really is hard to judge someone while not even knowing them before this all happened.

Everyone is so individual that it is impossible to project our own expectations on to them, imo.

I get my hinky meter way up when 911 calls are filled with way over the top dramatics. Reminds me of Susan 'crocodile tears" Smith and Guy Heinz Jr who slaughtered his entire family. Those are the ones that are chilling to me.

Just like Mrs. Smith.......I cant comprehend as a mother of five children finding one of my children beheaded. God bless that poor woman who had to witness such a thing. I think I would have a heart attack right there and die with them but thank God I have never had to walk in those shoes and hope I never do.

IMO

 

[Prof]

At the risk of jumping in and being eaten alive as a newbie, I have to say I concur with your points of the above cases about each particular perp not leaving evidence behind (or identified by LE as the case may be).

As I looked at the statement made by LE, I took the operative word *adequate* in the sentence to mean that perhaps the clean up could have been better (like being told your dissertation is "adequate" rather than exceptional?). If something is adequate, it is OK, but could have been better (which means they maybe they have identified room for improvement), which begs the question...how could the perp have improved his or her technique in tackling his or her breadcrumbs?

Just a thought and only my opinion...

Welcome, Hannibal.
Your first sentence struck me funny in relation to your s/n!
IMO If we focus on the posts rather than the posters, usually we all will keep our body parts lol

I agree with your point about the word "adequate."
You have made the point I tried to make when that statement first came out in one of the LE Pressers...
A reporter asked the officer how a perp could have done such an excellent job to stump TPD, FBI etc....
That's when LE stated qualified the answer with the word "adequate."
I think I can find the link if anyone is interested in reviewing that presser.

ETA I think this was one of the pressers that never got uploaded on any station's website.
So I only have the transcribing I did of live presser May 5 at 11:00 am on Isa' thread 11.
It was difficult to hear reporters' questions as usual.
It starts with post 302 on the thread, page 13.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171121&page=12

 

[johnQpublic]

I still like to know if there was FB posts of any importance that may have existed between 4/8 and 4/26 on RC's FB Page. Just seems odd she has had a sort of regular posting history and then for some reason there is a gap.

 

[spoiledmom]

Couple questions for any locals who may know.. Paul Birmingham is a local journalist/reporter who has really been used quite a bit as a local source for the national media reporting on Isa's case.. I know he states e has lived in the community his entire life.. what are locals opinion of him? I know some reporters are known for their accurate reporting where as some othrs are quite well known for their sensationalism.

Ikeep thinking about his claim about that according to him LE is very secure in what they know to have happened nd why to Isa.. he has stated numerous times LE are 90% certain but want to be that solid 100% in order to be certain the prosecution is successful. That along with that he believes there to be trafficking of narcotics or even humans that is at the heart of the case.

Those IMO are very very strong statements to make multiple times on national.. prime time news outlets..that LE IS 90% CERTAIN..

what do you all know about Paul Birmingham as well as his very strong statements attributed to LE?

TiA to anyone who has any local knowledge or opinion on PB and his statements.

I do not know him as a person so I couldn't say what my opinion is of him. However, I heard the same information and it wasn't from the media. It was from someone that was actually working on the case. This was a couple weeks ago. I do not know if anything has changed and I don't know what evidence LE has to make them believe this. I literally got this information the day before the boys were taken away. So this is why I have a hard time taking the cartel option off the table. I don't know if it has been ruled out so it is still a possibility in my opinion. I don't believe that if the Celis family is involved in drugs, that they were millionaires. I think he may have family that lives in Mexico that is involved in the cartel. He may have dabbled in it in hopes to get rich. He may of spent money he made from selling drugs to pay off debt he owed. Who knows? He could have been working with a family member and screwed up a deal. I don't know why or how this idea came about. But I think most of the theories listed are all possibilities. Whatever happened to Isa, I believe that SC was involved and he wasn't a victim. I believe this is why his sons were taken from him. I think he is being watched closely but he is aware of this so he is being careful. I don't know why or how kidnapping a child would benefit a cartel if everything is done so secretly. I am confused and trying to think about other theories myself. Either way, I always go back to SC being involved in some way.

 

[Taminator]

Welcome, Hannibal.
Your first sentence struck me funny in relation to your s/n!
IMO If we focus on the posts rather than the posters, usually we all will keep our body parts lol

I agree with your point about the word "adequate."
You have made the point I tried to make when that statement first came out in one of the LE Pressers...
A reporter asked the officer how a perp could have done such an excellent job to stump TPD, FBI etc....
That's when LE stated qualified the answer with the word "adequate."
I think I can find the link if anyone is interested in reviewing that presser.

Lt. Pacheco really "searched" for that word during the presser, IIRC. It stuck out in my mind because he looked up, bobbed his head back and forth a couple times, and then decided on using the word "adequate".

IMO, "adequate" could simply mean the perp used gloves or didn't stay long enough to leave anything obvious.

 

[Prof]

Lt. Pacheco really "searched" for that word during the presser, IIRC. It stuck out in my mind because he looked up, bobbed his head back and forth a couple times, and then decided on using the word "adequate".

IMO, "adequate" could simply mean the perp used gloves or didn't stay long enough to leave anything obvious.

Yes, he did...he took his time.
I did find a clip of him making the statement...it just does not include the reporter's question he was answering.
@about 1:39 in the tape
http://www.kvoa.com/videos/police-say-whoever-did-this-did-an-adequate-job/

 

[time]

I do not know him as a person so I couldn't say what my opinion is of him. However, I heard the same information and it wasn't from the media. It was from someone that was actually working on the case. This was a couple weeks ago. I do not know if anything has changed and I don't know what evidence LE has to make them believe this. I literally got this information the day before the boys were taken away. So this is why I have a hard time taking the cartel option off the table. I don't know if it has been ruled out so it is still a possibility in my opinion. I don't believe that if the Celis family is involved in drugs, that they were millionaires. I think he may have family that lives in Mexico that is involved in the cartel. He may have dabbled in it in hopes to get rich. He may of spent money he made from selling drugs to pay off debt he owed. Who knows? He could have been working with a family member and screwed up a deal. I don't know why or how this idea came about. But I think most of the theories listed are all possibilities. Whatever happened to Isa, I believe that SC was involved and he wasn't a victim. I believe this is why his sons were taken from him. I think he is being watched closely but he is aware of this so he is being careful. I don't know why or how kidnapping a child would benefit a cartel if everything is done so secretly. I am confused and trying to think about other theories myself. Either way, I always go back to SC being involved in some way.

Suspecting that is a good possibility if there is a cartel connection.

 

[HannibalTLC]

Welcome, Hannibal.
Your first sentence struck me funny in relation to your s/n!
IMO If we focus on the posts rather than the posters, usually we all will keep our body parts lol

I agree with your point about the word "adequate."
You have made the point I tried to make when that statement first came out in one of the LE Pressers...
A reporter asked the officer how a perp could have done such an excellent job to stump TPD, FBI etc....
That's when LE stated qualified the answer with the word "adequate."
I think I can find the link if anyone is interested in reviewing that presser.

Thanks Prof...I do have a tendency to be a bit *punny* at peculiar (and unfortunately inappropriate) times. Debating is much like scrabble, you can rearrange words amongst each other creating new ideas that you would not have been able to form unilaterally. Despite the minor frustration of someone using your triple word score on occasion (or pointing out your terrible theory of Alien Abductions in this case), the ability to perpetuate creativity and knowledge with one another is profound...even at the risk of a limb...

I did find the link where LE stated "Whoever is involved did an adequate job of really covering a lot of things that we could possibly look at."
I know it is old as it is from May 5.

http://www.kvoa.com/videos/police-say-whoever-did-this-did-an-adequate-job/
If we look at the word adequate, as in OK, could be better, could be worse...
The word *covering* could be concealing OR
The word *covering* could be a within a range or territory
The word *covering* could be to travel or traverse over
The use of the word *could* bugs me since it is a past tense form of the word can.
(You can verify meanings on Dictionary.com, however, I did leave out about 20 uses of the word covering)

I am writing it out as such because I am wondering if it was intended to say, "The perp didn't do a great job, but did better than fair in concealing a lot of EVIDENCE we CAN'T LOOK AT BECAUSE OF ________fill in blank"

OR

"The perp traveled over a good distance leaving an adequate (read, OK) trail of evidence that we could possibly (past tense, maybe? Noncommittal? Seriously? If this was my boyfriend, I would DUMP HIM!?! Sorry, I digress). Can evaluate.

Adequate seems to be the word to describe the case. Adequately Puzzling.