Found Deceased AZ - Isabella Grogan-Cannella, 8, Bullhead City, 2 September 2014 - #3

[ChuckMaureen]

IMO The children not hurt by this type of lifestyle are very few,very rare and extremely lucky.

Agreed .. but I know of a few who were not 'hurt', both in the immediate and long terms.

 

[tier]

I'll ignore the seeming /sarcasm in that post ;-)

My point is, different people grieve in differing ways. There are commonalities, there is uniqueness. Sometimes, that uniqueness might seem very odd or even macabre or there may be underlying psychological or even mental disorder aspects. I am not excusing her behavior. I simply am not judging it at this point. Too many truly unknowns at this point and making a judgement on that behavior does not, IMO, advance the case against JJR ..nor at this moment does it advance a potential case against TG.

In time....

Thank you for ignoring it. I didn't realize when this case started it would have that big of a trigger as her specific comment subject had for me. I'm usually good at compartmentalizing my personal history with cases here and there are a few big ones with very similar abuses. I suppose this one aspect was just too soon and wasn't triggering me as the victim but my beloved granddaughter instead.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I can barely eat and certainly cannot sleep knowing that my oldest child will be leaving to live abroad in 5 days . I'm overcome with grief and he's not even gone yet ! Can't stop crying today for some reason . Sigh.... Parents take for granted the joy children bring to the world . It's a tragedy that TG is more concerned with her own well being than admit she was a pathetic excuse for a mother . Sorry , I wasn't going to be negative today but all the excusing of putting kids in harms way because that's the life she knew is making more than I can stand .

I am not excusing it. I do try to view situations from their perspective, to hopefully gain understanding of how it might play out in their world view ..why does it seem 'normal' to them, why do they not recognize their failures and what might help them understand the reality.

Should we simply crush-and-flush human beings who seem not to be aware of themselves and the result of their action and inaction or, do we attempt to help them correct themselves so that they may truly feel the pain of knowing they might be responsible for causing fatal harm to come to their very own flesh and blood? I'd rather we attempt to get ahead of the occurrences .. and provide help before the hurt occurs.

IMO, perpetual bashing of the person in a forum where everyone in the forum agrees the person's behavior is 'wrong' or 'not acceptable' in our society is a waste of resources, unless 'feel-good' anger is justifiable for some, 'personal satisfaction' and all that.

 

[tier]

I am not excusing it. I do try to view situations from their perspective, to hopefully gain understanding of how it might play out in their world view ..why does it seem 'normal' to them, why do they not recognize their failures and what might help them understand the reality.

Should we simply crush-and-flush human beings who seem not to be aware of themselves and the result of their action and inaction or, do we attempt to help them correct themselves so that they may truly feel the pain of knowing they might be responsible for causing fatal harm to come to their very own flesh and blood? I'd rather we attempt to get ahead of the occurrences .. and provide help before the hurt occurs.

IMO, perpetual bashing of the person in a forum where everyone in the forum agrees the person's behavior is 'wrong' or 'not acceptable' in our society is a waste of resources, unless 'feel-good' anger is justifiable for some, 'personal satisfaction' and all that.

In my experience, many people with these lifestyles know right from wrong. They know they are putting their children in potentially dangerous situations and have been warned, pleaded with and just don't want to stop their own fun. Period. Do they know for sure their child will die whether by another's murderous hand or even reckless but non-malicious actions behaviors? No. But many know it is a possibility. Many know personally a friend/acquaintance whose children got hurt/killed by the their lifestyle. Take the bio fathers other baby mama.. maybe TG didn't know about that maybe she did. But odds are she knows a few other parents with similar outcomes. Many are given too many warnings/chances/real life horror stories to understand the possible consequences to their actions/non-actions. Not too few.

 

[pukasonqo2]

i think that the anger with bella's mum comes from her putting her children in harm's way. she didn't kill her daughter but he allowed dangerous people to have easy access to those kids. is similar with cherish perrywinkle's mother, this two women failed in their duty of care towards their kids

as for the perp, most of us know the hell he is going to experience in jail (unless he is placed in protective custody), he was a crime waiting to happen, unfortunately bella was the victim, luckily for others he will be locked away for a very long time.

with cherish and bella i am angry at the perps, yes. but i am also frustrated at the adults who are meant to care for these children and instead made them into easy targets and victims of these twisted individuals


lupus est homini , non , non quom qualis sit novit

 

[vasportsmom]

I am not excusing it. I do try to view situations from their perspective, to hopefully gain understanding of how it might play out in their world view ..why does it seem 'normal' to them, why do they not recognize their failures and what might help them understand the reality.

Should we simply crush-and-flush human beings who seem not to be aware of themselves and the result of their action and inaction or, do we attempt to help them correct themselves so that they may truly feel the pain of knowing they might be responsible for causing fatal harm to come to their very own flesh and blood? I'd rather we attempt to get ahead of the occurrences .. and provide help before the hurt occurs.

IMO, perpetual bashing of the person in a forum where everyone in the forum agrees the person's behavior is 'wrong' or 'not acceptable' in our society is a waste of resources, unless 'feel-good' anger is justifiable for some, 'personal satisfaction' and all that.

This discussion is clearly personal for a lot of us and I wish there was a way to put that aside. Not all of us are able to put ourselves in TG's shoes and that makes it difficult to communicate without dissent.

It is not my intent to hurt fellow posters and I hope that my response can be read in that spirit. IMO, when a parent (or guardian) fails to take responsibility for their child and harm comes to that child then it needs to be openly discussed and dealt with. Silence does not serve anyone, least of all the child or their remaining siblings. What some that sympathize with TG sees as bashing many others see as discussion because TG, and sadly many others, are still in the media talking about their parenting skills. Change can not come until we begin to hold parents responsible.


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[Ontario Mom]

Change can not come until we begin to hold parents responsible.

This, this, this and a million times THIS. Our society has consumed the kool-ade with all the excuses and labels and psycho-babble and what ticks me off even more than that, is the way that those folks with legit mental illness or recovering addicts (or whatever other situation or category they happen to fall into) who DO own their disadvantages, take charge of their lives and put their kids FIRST just sort of get lumped into the nasty-mess when people make excuses for people like TG.

It's not fair to them, and it's just enabling to people who know someone's going to make yet another excuse for them. I know this forum is victim-friendly and I very much appreciate that, but in this particular case I honestly do not see TG as a victim. No one forced her against her will to associate with known felons, no one threatened her to consume drugs, and no one made her expose her children to a dangerous, high-risk lifestyle. She chose that of her own volition and her daughter paid for it.

Just MOO.

 

[vasportsmom]

This, this, this and a million times THIS. Our society has consumed the kool-ade with all the excuses and labels and psycho-babble and what ticks me off even more than that, is the way that those folks with legit mental illness or recovering addicts (or whatever other situation or category they happen to fall into) who DO own their disadvantages, take charge of their lives and put their kids FIRST just sort of get lumped into the nasty-mess when people make excuses for people like TG.

It's not fair to them, and it's just enabling to people who know someone's going to make yet another excuse for them. I know this forum is victim-friendly and I very much appreciate that, but in this particular case I honestly do not see TG as a victim. No one forced her against her will to associate with known felons, no one threatened her to consume drugs, and no one made her expose her children to a dangerous, high-risk lifestyle. She chose that of her own volition and her daughter paid for it.

Just MOO.

This is all perfect. It is time that we quit enabling and making excuses for these people. If your husband molested your daughter you should not birth more victims for him. If the creepy man at the Dollar Store offers you a gift card and a cheeseburger you don't send your daughter off with him. If you knowingly move a felon into your home then you accept responsibility when your baby ends up dead. These little girls should not have to keep ending dying before their village realizes there is an idiot and a monster amongst them. It is way past time to quit excusing these parents. If you fail a child you are responsible for that and you shouldn't get a second chance.


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[ChuckMaureen]

In my experience, many people with these lifestyles know right from wrong. They know they are putting their children in potentially dangerous situations and have been warned, pleaded with and just don't want to stop their own fun. Period. Do they know for sure their child will die whether by another's murderous hand or even reckless but non-malicious actions behaviors? No. But many know it is a possibility. Many know personally a friend/acquaintance whose children got hurt/killed by the their lifestyle. Take the bio fathers other baby mama.. maybe TG didn't know about that maybe she did. But odds are she knows a few other parents with similar outcomes. Many are given too many warnings/chances/real life horror stories to understand the possible consequences to their actions/non-actions. Not too few.

...and do we know the *why*?

Yes. Self-indulgent, addictive personality, a huge lack of empathy and a smorgasbord of unmanageable internal conflict, pressure, and stress.

 

[blefuscu]

This, this, this and a million times THIS. Our society has consumed the kool-ade with all the excuses and labels and psycho-babble and what ticks me off even more than that, is the way that those folks with legit mental illness or recovering addicts (or whatever other situation or category they happen to fall into) who DO own their disadvantages, take charge of their lives and put their kids FIRST just sort of get lumped into the nasty-mess when people make excuses for people like TG.

It's not fair to them, and it's just enabling to people who know someone's going to make yet another excuse for them. I know this forum is victim-friendly and I very much appreciate that, but in this particular case I honestly do not see TG as a victim. No one forced her against her will to associate with known felons, no one threatened her to consume drugs, and no one made her expose her children to a dangerous, high-risk lifestyle. She chose that of her own volition and her daughter paid for it.

Just MOO.

Can only agree with this. Cases such as Jenise Wright, the 5 Jones children, Cherish Perrywinkle, Amora Carson, Willow Long and Caylee Anthony (to name just a handful) all have parents who put their own needs before their children's. I honestly think that some parents have no thought before they have children. They don't realise that going out to bars, lying in bed til noon, hanging out until midnight with whoever and drug taking aren't conducive to raising children.

While the children in most of the cases above were murdered by people who weren't their parents, they were let down by the people who should be focusing solely on giving a good, stable, loving home to them. Allowing your kids to wander around unsupervised, to stay up until the middle of the night, to go off with whomever, or just to neglect their basic needs is inexcusable.

 

[Knox]

Agreed .. but I know of a few who were not 'hurt', both in the immediate and long terms.

All this back and forth seems quite futile. There are exceptions to every rule, circumstance and reality in life. We all know this simple premise ... the scrolling & rolling in this thread leads to reading one post of every ten. :gaah:

 

[news.talk]

This is all perfect. It is time that we quit enabling and making excuses for these people. If your husband molested your daughter you should not birth more victims for him. If the creepy man at the Dollar Store offers you a gift card and a cheeseburger you don't send your daughter off with him. If you knowingly move a felon into your home then you accept responsibility when your baby ends up dead. These little girls should not have to keep ending dying before their village realizes there is an idiot and a monster amongst them. It is way past time to quit excusing these parents. If you fail a child you are responsible for that and you shouldn't get a second chance.


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I completely agree. If I may add... again...

Every member of society needs to take the blinders off and stop saying, "it's none of my business" when children are potentially at risk.

How many people, including teachers, LE, neighbours, friends and family, knew that this child, as are MANY others, were/are in a potentially dangerous living situation?

It has become an epidemic of apathy!

Why is it that we continue to see the same type of situation of poor parenting leading to the death of children? Why is it so easy to disect what went wrong, after the fact, yet it keeps happening?

I understand that there are no easy answers but at the very least, I hope that Bella and the other children that are forced to live in these types of environments, can serve as a wake up call to everyone - They do not have a voice and depend on a just society to speak for them.

When tragedies occur, aren't we supposed to learn from them and do better?

 

[news.talk]

Agreed .. but I know of a few who were not 'hurt', both in the immediate and long terms.

Sadly, that is the exception, not the rule. Just because these children may survive being murdered, doesn't mean they don't pay a heavy price. Most of them grow up repeating the poor choices their parent's made.

Just because they survived doesn't mean they aren't affected significantly.

Is simply surviving the *test* for excusing and ignoring children at risk? What percentage is acceptable for growing up unscathed?

 

[ChuckMaureen]

bbm

This discussion is clearly personal for a lot of us and I wish there was a way to put that aside. Not all of us are able to put ourselves in TG's shoes and that makes it difficult to communicate without dissent.

It is not my intent to hurt fellow posters and I hope that my response can be read in that spirit. IMO, when a parent (or guardian) fails to take responsibility for their child and harm comes to that child then it needs to be openly discussed and dealt with. Silence does not serve anyone, least of all the child or their remaining siblings. What some that sympathize with TG sees as bashing many others see as discussion because TG, and sadly many others, are still in the media talking about their parenting skills. Change can not come until we begin to hold parents responsible.

I agree! .. but in multiple posts it seemed what was being 'discussed' was simply a picking apart of every single thing TG was doing. Going out to eat, smiling, defending herself in boisterous demeanor, etc. Calling out such behavior by posters in a forum to which TG is not a member and probably not reading, amounts to nothing more than, uhm, a form of self-indulgent behavior? ....:cheers: .. just a bit of kidding, but this is my point:

Imagine, when this case first came to be, that a select group of Websleuths members collaborated to reach out to one Tania Grogan, mother of the missing / murdered child, to invite her to join Websleuths to participate in "sleuthing" discussions, etc. Think of the potential information that could have been garnered? Lies? Some, perhaps but not necessarily every little tidbit.

Anger toward such a mother might seem natural, but it does not assist in gathering information and possibly gaining insight to the who / what / when / why of the case. I wish it had gone that way. It is possible there are folks who might proclaim, "I wouldn't want to discuss anything with that _______!" And those folks would have lost out on a perhaps unique opportunity.

Worst case? She might simply have declined.

 

[Native Pride]

is there a link for the services live feed please n ty appreciate

 

[news.talk]

bbm



I agree! .. but in multiple posts it seemed what was being 'discussed' was simply a picking apart of every single thing TG was doing. Going out to eat, smiling, defending herself in boisterous demeanor, etc. Calling out such behavior by posters in a forum to which TG is not a member and probably not reading, amounts to nothing more than, uhm, a form of self-indulgent behavior? ....:cheers: .. just a bit of kidding, but this is my point:

Imagine, when this case first came to be, that a select group of Websleuths members collaborated to reach out to one Tania Grogan, mother of the missing / murdered child, to invite her to join Websleuths to participate in "sleuthing" discussions, etc. Think of the potential information that could have been garnered? Lies? Some, perhaps but not necessarily every little tidbit.

Anger toward such a mother might seem natural, but it does not assist in gathering information and possibly gaining insight to the who / what / when / why of the case. I wish it had gone that way. It is possible there are folks who might proclaim, "I wouldn't want to discuss anything with that _______!" And those folks would have lost out on a perhaps unique opportunity.

Worst case? She might simply have declined.

Sadly, TG is not an anomaly; she may be the focus of the issue at large, but she is still an example of the larger problem.

Why do we as society, need to find excuses for such blatant dangerous parenting? Biology makes her a parent but it in no way makes her a mother.

I feel that it is highly dangerous to ignore the mistakes TG made and even moreso to excuse them - in any way.

 

[Native Pride]

found one starting in a few rip sweet angel bella ............http://www.azfamily.com/home/related/Watch-LIVE-3TV-News-201709481.html

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Sadly, TG is not an anomaly; she may be the focus of the issue at large, but she is still an example of the larger problem.

Why do we as society, need to find excuses for such blatant dangerous parenting? Biology makes her a parent but it in no way makes her a mother.

I feel that it is highly dangerous to ignore the mistakes TG made and even moreso to excuse them - in any way.

Respectfully:

To invite and engage with TG for to discuss what type of child was "Bella" and Isabella's sister, how Isabella's sister is handling the situation, what Isabella's sister said during the phone call and later, to discuss what circumstances led for to JJR need a place to stay, what was his demeanor that evening, when did he (really) leave, etc.

If the above idea is perceived as a method to "find excuses" and to "ignore the mistakes TG made" then I would have to say the take-away entirely misses the point and the value of developing such an opportunity.

In fact, I believe the idea would result in perhaps valuable and useful information (applicable to many such cases I would expect) than would simply labeling TG a dangerous parent, pointing out her weight problem and how (some in SM) make note of how often she's been eating out and about since the tragic event and letting those jabs simply float throughout the ether for the next millennium.

 

[Seajay]

If it's on schedule, Bella's memorial service should have started. Maybe we should all have a moment of silence for this baby girl. RIP Bella.

 

[winterrose]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/bhcbellastrong/ Some photos of the Memorial...