GUILTY AZ - Isabella Grogan-Cannella, 8, Bullhead City, 2 September 2014 - #4

[Solitaryone]

Well, I have zero sympathy for TG. She has lied repeatedly, and more importantly she has repeatedly lied about JJR. I think RF is just as bad. Why no mention by either of them about JJR? It's left to K to say something about JJR. Why was TG allegedly too "distraught" to make the call to 911 to report Bella missing? Why was TG too "distraught" to get on the line with 911 after RF called them? Why was TG too "distraught" that she allegedly was "upstairs" instead of right next to RF during the 911 call? The timeline and info do not add up, IMO. I think Bella was murdered in the home, and I think TG/Rf know exactly what happened to her. I hope these two will be arrested soon. All IMO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Thank you......giving some ''wiggle room'' to the accused, I was curious if there was even a remote possibility that there was a ''blackout'' effect that reasonably could explain that he was not ''capable'' of accounting for his actions before being picked up by LE....perhaps by the time he was doing his switcheroo at Walmart the effects were wearing off KWIM...he could explain that part but not what he had been doing earlier? due to heavy intoxication.

MOO -- just spec on my part

I wish to preface my answers with re: use from personal experience (having been briefly exposed to the lifestyle and seeing those in it who were long term users) but also couch those answers in the disclaimer that there is no such thing as an "across the boards" meth side effects reaction. i.e., I had an associate at one time that while OFF meth was what anyone would call hyper-active, but while on meth was what anyone would call quite chill and layed back. He actually discovered meth to be a cheap and easy treatment for his very expensive prescription meds. It really does effect different people in different ways.

That being said, however... "blackouts" that might be associated with being intoxicated with alcohol or other drugs are not generally associated with meth use, in my subjective experience. Folks doing meth remember things but just remember them differently than others do who may have also been there while they were using.

 

[vasportsmom]

Well, I have zero sympathy for TG. She has lied repeatedly, and more importantly she has repeatedly lied about JJR. I think RF is just as bad. Why no mention by either of them about JJR? It's left to K to say something about JJR. Why was TG allegedly too "distraught" to make the call to 911 to report Bella missing? Why was TG too "distraught" to get on the line with 911 after RF called them? Why was TG too "distraught" that she allegedly was "upstairs" instead of right next to RF during the 911 call? The timeline and info do not add up, IMO. I think Bella was murdered in the home, and I think TG/Rf know exactly what happened to her. I hope these two will be arrested soon. All IMO.

That "too distraught" keeps getting me. Several weekends ago my son was involved in a wreck that totaled my car. As soon as J's name popped up on my phone I *knew* what had happened. I froze up briefly and then reach the phone to my husband but I never left his side. I had to hear everything that was said and ask a billion questions (mainly "are you sure you are okay" over and over). I can't imagine completely removing myself from the situation and just hanging out upstairs until someone decided to come clue me in about what 911 said. Who does that?

*my son was fine, the wreck wasn't his fault and I love my new car so all is well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mymadori]

I personally don't feel like it's necessary to have proof they were doing drugs that evening. It seems to be a rather rampant belief that the place was known to be a flop house. If this information was ONLY coming from SM, I wouldn't automatically believe it. However when you combine this "rumor" from many different people on SM, plus you add TF and RF's criminal history, plus the unwillingness of TG to simply let LE search the house without a warrant when they were trying to find HER daughter, plus JR now claiming he was there smoking meth all day...well...if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Do I know there is some slim chance that they were NOT partaking in drugs? Sure. That said, I don't have to base my opinion on "beyond a shadow of a doubt" logic, because I'm not on the jury. I am simply coming to my own conclusion based on what I've read, seen and heard.

Also, I don't feel it's necessary to prove there were drugs there that particular night to make my point. Out of this group of adults that were there that night, I've personally seen the criminal records of FOUR. TG, RF, JR and a woman whose name was just posted on the court docs today. Every single one of them have drug convictions and/or felonies. Heck, RF was just recently arrested for a burglary ring?

Whether she believed JR could/would do this to her daughter or not, she put that poor child in danger.

Typically, I'd find it in my heart to feel sympathy for her. Maybe, just maybe, I've had a quick moment or two where I have. But I have to say, it would sure go a long long way if she'd just come out and say something along the lines of "I never should have trusted him. I never should have let people like that into my home. I should have protected her."... ANYTHING to take even the smallest amount of responsibility.

For now, I'm really on the fence about her level of involvement. The whole "I won't do bad anymore. They've got Bella." comment leads me to believe that at least early on she believed Bella to have been taken as a direct result of something she'd done. So for now, my theory (and it's just that- a theory) is that she angered Justin over something and that something is IMHO, drugs, and she intentionally has not been forthcoming with that information to the police.

I pray that JR is punished to the fullest extent of the law. I also pray that everyone else who has ANY culpability whatsoever is as well.

 

[newone]

I wish to preface my answers with re: use from personal experience (having been briefly exposed to the lifestyle and seeing those in it who were long term users) but also couch those answers in the disclaimer that there is no such thing as an "across the boards" meth side effects reaction. i.e., I had an associate at one time that while OFF meth was what anyone would call hyper-active, but while on meth was what anyone would call quite chill and layed back. He actually discovered meth to be a cheap and easy treatment for his very expensive prescription meds. It really does effect different people in different ways.

That being said, however... "blackouts" that might be associated with being intoxicated with alcohol or other drugs are not generally associated with meth use, in my subjective experience. Folks doing meth remember things but just remember them differently than others do who may have also been there while they were using.

I really appreciate your feedback. I too have heard that some ADHD folks have found ''relief'' when they don't have access to their regular meds. IF there was multiple substance abuse that day, say alcohol etc, that may possibly have contributed to ''blackout'' but there is no evidence of that from what I have read. Saying that then, no blackout defense in the case of JR that night MOO.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I completely understand what you're saying. I will go one step further and say that YES, TG is not directly (from what we know, anyway) responsible for the death of Bella. She is however, 100% indirectly responsible for surrounding & exposing those innocent & defenseless children to people she knew explicitly were violent, perverted, liars, con-men/women, frauds, drug users, drug dealers, etc. She upped the risk-factor by her lifestyle choice, and Bella paid the ultimate price for it.

Public, criminal records (hers and those she associated with) prove this beyond any shadow of a doubt.

And so is the (non-criminal type) parent who let her 3 year old child play in the front yard unsupervised "for five minutes" 100% indirectly responsible for her child having disappeared from the yard.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-nearby-forest-hope-finding-alive-fades.html

What are the differences; similarities? Criminal history? Community staples? Comfort factor in each case? Most of how we interpret our experiences is based on perspective. TG no more felt her children were "at risk" than this mother who left her 3 year old child unsupervised for five minutes. Yet, both were at risk (perhaps the risk levels are different, but are they, really? We are talking about children after all and we should not be gauging risk, should we? We should simply *do*) ...but will the 3 year old's mother catch the same grief? Probably not, even though she could be judged as equally indirectly responsible for her child's disappearance.

 

[kshultz06082]

But if the initial reports are correct, and there was no SA, perhaps that is what they wanted LE to believe? It certainly helps throw suspicion off of the parent's and onto JJR.

I think he *attempted* to SA her and when she fought back, he killed her.

Jumping off your post....

I know nothing about meth, but can it effect... ahem... libido...? As in, it was meant to be an SA but it couldnt be due to the all day meth binge causing "technical difficulties"? Anyone know?

 

[newone]

Jumping off your post....

I know nothing about meth, but can it effect... ahem... libido...? As in, it was meant to be an SA but it couldnt be due to the all day meth binge causing "technical difficulties"? Anyone know?

I was doing a lot of reading on that last night and there's initially a hypersexuality component for both male and female users who are driven to ''marathon'' sessions but apparently with long term use the opposite effect takes place and performance issues ensue.....

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I personally don't feel like it's necessary to have proof they were doing drugs that evening. It seems to be a rather rampant belief that the place was known to be a flop house. If this information was ONLY coming from SM, I wouldn't automatically believe it. However when you combine this "rumor" from many different people on SM, plus you add TF and RF's criminal history, plus the unwillingness of TG to simply let LE search the house without a warrant when they were trying to find HER daughter, plus JR now claiming he was there smoking meth all day...well...if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Do I know there is some slim chance that they were NOT partaking in drugs? Sure. That said, I don't have to base my opinion on "beyond a shadow of a doubt" logic, because I'm not on the jury. I am simply coming to my own conclusion based on what I've read, seen and heard.

Also, I don't feel it's necessary to prove there were drugs there that particular night to make my point. Out of this group of adults that were there that night, I've personally seen the criminal records of FOUR. TG, RF, JR and a woman whose name was just posted on the court docs today. Every single one of them have drug convictions and/or felonies. Heck, RF was just recently arrested for a burglary ring?

Whether she believed JR could/would do this to her daughter or not, she put that poor child in danger.

Typically, I'd find it in my heart to feel sympathy for her. Maybe, just maybe, I've had a quick moment or two where I have. But I have to say, it would sure go a long long way if she'd just come out and say something along the lines of "I never should have trusted him. I never should have let people like that into my home. I should have protected her."... ANYTHING to take even the smallest amount of responsibility.

For now, I'm really on the fence about her level of involvement. The whole "I won't do bad anymore. They've got Bella." comment leads me to believe that at least early on she believed Bella to have been taken as a direct result of something she'd done. So for now, my theory (and it's just that- a theory) is that she angered Justin over something and that something is IMHO, drugs, and she intentionally has not been forthcoming with that information to the police.

I pray that JR is punished to the fullest extent of the law. I also pray that everyone else who has ANY culpability whatsoever is as well.

I only needed to know if LE had presented drug evidence beyond JJR's attributed statement ..and based on your reply, I have not missed it. Thank you for the thoughtful response! Much appreciated.

 

[kshultz06082]

Operative phrase: "has LE discovered and reported *evidence* of drug use attributed to TG, RF, GM and / or the other adults in the house that evening?".

Any evidence as of yet?

If not, the only reason is because the 2 hours that Bella was being killed and 911 was not being called, they were cleaning the drugs out of the house.

 

[3blue1pink]

And so is the (non-criminal type) parent who let her 3 year old child play in the front yard unsupervised "for five minutes" 100% indirectly responsible for her child having disappeared from the yard.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-nearby-forest-hope-finding-alive-fades.html

What are the differences; similarities? Criminal history? Community staples? Comfort factor in each case? Most of how we interpret our experiences is based on perspective. TG no more felt her children were "at risk" than this mother who left her 3 year old child unsupervised for five minutes. Yet, both were at risk (perhaps the risk levels are different, but are they, really? We are talking about children after all and we should not be gauging risk, should we? We should simply *do*) ...but will the 3 year old's mother catch the same grief? Probably not, even though she could be judged as equally indirectly responsible for her child's disappearance.

Five minutes is a long time to leave a toddler alone especially in the front yard. I have a three and four year old and there is no way I'd leave them by themselves in the front yard unsupervised for 5 seconds let alone minutes . So this argument doesn't fly with me .

Furthermore, TG has a history ( she's said she's left her kids alone with JJR SEVERAL times) . She's chronically testing fate and now Bella has paid the price of her poor judgement.

Did the mom who left her baby alone for five minutes make a bad decision . Without a doubt . But do we know if she has habitually. shirked her supervisory duties ? To me it doesn't matter . When you're charged with the care of those whom can't care for themselves and you fail due to neglect , then you are at fault . Period.

 

[3blue1pink]

Wow , I've missed a lot . Been busy with my own life ... Lol... Can anyone recap what happened today in court ?

 

[ChuckMaureen]

If not, the only reason is because the 2 hours that Bella was being killed and 911 was not being called, they were cleaning the drugs out of the house.

A very real possibility, but I would prefer a tighter timeline. As of yet it is loosely-defined to the point of being useless.

....wondering what, if anything, Isabella's sister would have to say about that evening regarding "cleaning" that might have occurred? Would she remain silent, or is she simply not privy to perhaps behind-closed-doors activities, or there was no (reason for) cleaning and there is nothing to be said?

In light of JJR's 'admission', will LE further pursue potential drug use by others that evening and potentially what role it might have played in Isabella's eventual kidnapping and murder? Or is that door forever closed, with no lead-in evidence suggesting success with that pursuit?

If there is a *there*, there IMO it likely would need to be revealed by Isabella's sister.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Five minutes is a long time to leave a toddler alone especially in the front yard. I have a three and four year old and there is no way I'd leave them by themselves in the front yard unsupervised for 5 seconds let alone minutes . So this argument doesn't fly with me .

Furthermore, TG has a history ( she's said she's left her kids alone with JJR SEVERAL times) . She's chronically testing fate and now Bella has paid the price of her poor judgement.

Did the mom who left her baby alone for five minutes make a bad decision . Without a doubt . But do we know if she has habitually. shirked her supervisory duties ? To me it doesn't matter . When you're charged with the care of those whom can't care for themselves and you fail due to neglect , then you are at fault . Period.

You seem, then, to be agreeing with my point, that both parents are indirectly responsible although you might not agree with to what degree?

 

[3blue1pink]

You seem, then, to be agreeing with my point, that both parents are indirectly responsible although you might not agree with to what degree?

We do agree that both parents are responsible. However, TG blatantly and regularly neglected her children to satisfy her own desires . Her own word as well as many documented circumstances prove this . We do not know if the mother that left her 3 year old was a chronic child neglector .

Assuming that the mom of the 3 year old had only one lapse in judgment . One could assume that her own grief would be punishment enough and that she would learn from her mistake. With the case of TG her past history proves she cannot or will not learn from her mistakes . As society we must ask ourselves would it be responsible to let TG et al. Get off Scott free ? Let her care for other children ? Any sane person would say no.

Let me ask you this . Would you let TG babysit your kids?

 

[jojo87]

Jumping off your post....

I know nothing about meth, but can it effect... ahem... libido...? As in, it was meant to be an SA but it couldnt be due to the all day meth binge causing "technical difficulties"? Anyone know?

Yes that can happen. Don't quite know how to put it delicately but it goes up and down like a yoyo and once down frustration sets in until umm revival.

 

[jojo87]

I was going to comment on this earlier but got sidetracked. The side effects of meth are totally different than any other drug. Unlike booze or pot which make you kind of chill and layed back (the way RF sounded in that phone call to 911) meth makes you all chatty-cathy and super confident & argumentative (because you know it all, you see). Unless, of course, you're coming down (tweaking) then it makes you sound like a paranoid psycho.

So this is sort of confusing to me. RF doesn't sound in that 911 call anything like the average meth user. MOO.

JMO but I believe RF was more sober than the rest of the household that evening.

 

[newone]

JMO but I believe RF was more sober than the rest of the household that evening.

Until Bella went missing the biggest thing on his mind would have been his arraignment hearing that day.....so you do make an excellent point. (MOO)

 

[claudicici]

....the "SM" is private now......

 

[Ontario Mom]

I was doing a lot of reading on that last night and there's initially a hypersexuality component for both male and female users who are driven to ''marathon'' sessions but apparently with long term use the opposite effect takes place and performance issues ensue.....

100% correct.