GUILTY AZ - Six killed, 13 injured in shooting at Gabrielle Giffords event, 8 Jan 2011 - #1

[Nova]

I remember fighting for "mental health parity" here in Oregon ten years ago. We still don't have it. It's more like "mental health parody".

The conundrum is that the mentally ill don't choose to be ill, they often won't take their meds or accept treatment, and they are at high risk of harming themselves or others. It's not evilness. It's illness. Punitive measures ie a prison cell never cure a sick person. We've closed most publicly funded treatment facilities. These very sick and extremely volatile people are walking our streets, dazed and confused. WS is filled with literally thousands of threads which literally scream "mental illness". Isn't it time we start taking a much closer look at these tremendously ill people? Hockeymom is right. We run to help the physically sick but run from the mentally sick. Why?

IMO, it's back to the drawing board concerning laws, restrictions, and services. We've failed. Miserably.

I am quoting Missizzy's post NOT because I disagree with her, but just to provide context for what I am going to say. In fact, Missizzy has been incredibly informative and moving on the subject of our laws and how they fail to deal with the mentally ill.

THAT BEING SAID, it was only a few decades ago when people could be committed for life on the mere say so of their relatives.

This was especially true if a male (usually a husband or father, but sometimes even a brother) claimed that his female relative was "not normal." Once in the system, people diagnosed as mentally ill found themselves victimized by all sorts of invasive procedures (lobotomies, electric shock, harsh drugs) and sometimes trapped for life.

Some of these treatments may have been necessary, but a perfectly normal person might well be tortured simply for being non-conformist. Tennessee Williams' sister was lobotomized because she was outspoken and said things that embarrassed their mother. The sister required institutional care for the next 50+ years.

So it may be true that we have swung too far in the opposite way, to the point where desperately (and dangerously) ill people aren't getting the help they deserve. But we should also keep in mind the abuses of the past.

 

[Missizzy]

Answered my own question:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loughner-money-trail-familys-lifestyle-aided-monkey/story?id=12587114

"The message was signed, "The Loughner Family," and was handed out by two members of the public defenders' office...."

and

"...one former close friend of Loughner's said he went from a stable high school student to a violent, self-medicated "monster" after his girlfriend dumped him during his junior year of high school...."

 

[Nova]

Just heard this on tv and found this link that is similar to the laws of AZ. We heard there are 4 state including AZ that do this.


• What happens when a defendant is found incompetent to stand trial?

snip
A finding of incompetence merely signals a hiatus in the criminal proceedings. In the majority of cases, a mentally ill defendant deemed incompetent receives treatment until he is deemed "restored to competence," and returns to court.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html

BBM: I believe all states have some sort of law regarding competence to stand trial. They have to, because the right to be "competent" when on trial is guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, according to the U.S. Supreme Court.

But how competence is defined, and how it is determined, probably varies from state to state.

 

[Nancy2441]

New threat note found in Tucson shooting:

The suspect in Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' shooting wrote the words "Die, b****" on a note found in his home, a sheriff's official said Tuesday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41021843/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

 

[Missizzy]

Oh, this sounds very much like frontal lobe damage. Is everyone certain that he wasn't an adopted child or one exposed prenatally to substances or who suffered from a birth injury? This is SO telling to me:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...fV7I6g?docId=9f0066934a454659a2e5b977cb295733

".....A year ago, he [Jared] volunteered walking adoptable dogs at the county animal shelter, said KJ, manager of the Pima Animal Care Center. He liked dogs; neighbors remember him as the kid they would see walking his own.

At the shelter, staff became concerned: He was allowing dogs to play in an area that was being disinfected after one had contracted a potentially deadly disease, the parvovirus. "He didn't think the disease was that threatening and when we tried to explain how dangerous some of the diseases are. He didn't get it," KJ said.

He wouldn't agree to keep dogs from the restricted area, and was asked to come back when he would. He never returned....."

more at link

As an example: the home we raised our 14 children in was very nice...a lovely 5000 sq. ft. historical home. I cannot overemphasize how many times (1000s?) that I reminded a certain child that he could NOT bounce his basketball on the dining room ceiling next to the vintage light fixtures. His response was always, "Oh, sorry." Ten minutes later he'd be back at it again. Seventeen years of that.......

Sheriffs within our state have paid out of their own pocket to have this son move on to another county now that he's in his twenties. He is exceptionally friendly and polite (when he's not cussing you out, stalking you, or flattening you) but absolutely unclear on boundaries. He once kissed a street mission pastor's wife straight on the lips and called her Mommy as he fondled her. A minute later he was saying "Yes, sir", to the men who confronted him. He also tried repeatedly to join the military but was turned away. He's been charged three times with stalking and twice with assault. And yes, he's totally unmedicated and walking the streets of Oregon. With a mother like me!!!!!!

FWIW, our son was the third son born to a mother abusing meth.

 

[Nova]

Might be related, but maybe not. What I found chilling were the comments on the article. "Log Cabin Republican' infers he was gay. Overall I found them disturbing. I wonder what is going on in Arizona? Could this have been a right wing militia hit?

I think that was supposed to be a joke. (Not a very funny one under the circumstances.)

It's a reference to this, activist gay group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bash_Back!




The poster was joking that maybe Bash Back! has started assassinating people. (AFAIK, it has not.)

There's nothing else on that page that suggests either the victim or shooter were gay.

 

[gitana1]

One thing that I hope results from this tragedy is a change in the college classrooms. I just saw an interview with Linda Sorensen, who was a classmate of Jared's this last summer. She was frightened of him from day one and sat by a window with her purse in her hand ready to escape if he became a threat and she has emails to friends describing her fear that he would show up with a gun and kill everybody. Jared was kicked out of class on the first day but returned for a couple more weeks before he was finally removed permanently from the class. I know from another interview on CNN.com that he was able to return again in the Fall and disrupt more classes before he was finally expelled with a requirement that he get counseling.

As a professor, I find that our colleges/universities are increasingly held prisoner by students with mental health problems. Here is a recent article that describes the issue:
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpps/hea...h-college-students-dpgoh-20101221-fc_11160158 excerpt:
But 44 percent in (college) counseling have severe psychological disorders, up from 16 percent in 2000, and 24 percent are on psychiatric medication, up from 17 percent a decade ago.
The most common disorders today: depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, alcohol abuse, attention disorders, self-injury and eating disorders, the study reported.

Every college professor that I know has stories about students who are disruptive in class and have no business being there. Many professors have been threatened and intimidated. Many college students have stories about classmates who frighten them. The college's have their hands ties because the student has paid for the courses and, therefore, has the right to attend. Even if the student is failing the class and has no chance to pass, I cannot prevent him/her from continuing to attend.

I commend Pima College for acting relatively quickly (it could have been faster) and for requiring Loughner to get counseling and demonstrate his mental health competence before returning to their campus. All colleges should follow suit.

An LA Times article today about Loughner proves your point. He was babbling nonsense in classes and everyone just thought he was on drugs. Most didn't think he was dangerous but one girl quit their poetry class because she felt uneasy. But, the article kind of made it seem that it took a while before Loughner was made to leave the school. Scary. We've seen what happened at Virginia Tech. He could have just as easily mowed down college kids instead of people at a political event. It's a scary world and more so when sitting in class trying to get an education can become a risky venture. Luckily, it seems these kinds of things are still very rare but it still scares me. I've tried to keep myself aware for years when in crowded public places, I was taught always to look for the exit first thing and know how to get to it in a hurry.

 

[gitana1]

As soon as I saw this guy's Youtube ramblings, I immediately thought, this kid has schizophrenia. I'm not a psychiatrist but I have taken psych classes and he is at the age where it usually hits. His thoughts are disorganized. Most schizophrenics are not violent but the ones who are usually are following commands of auditory hallucinations. Maybe he is just an angry irrational guy but my gut says schizophrenia. I wonder if his parents sought help for him? It must have been obvious to them...I know a wonderful family whose son became schizophrenic very early, in his middle teens. When he was 23 he hanged himself...suicide is usually a result of commands as well. So so sad.

I thought the same thing ans experts seem to agree. From what witnesses said, it looks like it may have been a fairly recent manifestation. Also, his family seemed very isolated and private so who knows what they saw or knew. http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-arizona-shooting-loughner-20110111,0,4635891.story?track=rss

 

[Missizzy]

Nova--Don't worry, you and I are on the same page. I am well aware of "female hysteria" and am sort of an asylum history buff. Remember, I've had a child who did two separate year long stints at the old Oregon State Hospital. The subject fascinates me as I've lived/live it. However, I happen to believe that we've swung too far in the opposite direction. It's fabulous to save public funds and to feel evolved about allowing the disabled/intellectually challenged/mentally ill to choose their own path. It's quite another to put society or the individual at great risk, all in the name of "progress".

I happen to be the mother of a young woman with a 50 IQ who cannot get Depo shots as she doesn't quite understand their purpose and thus cannot sign consent. And this is a young lady who has suffered from a horrific rape and who hasn't a clue about handling her menstruation. She's 22, the size of a 10 year old, and with the mind of a 7 year old. There's no way she could survive a pregnancy. We shadow her 24 hours a day but live in fear that something will happen beyond our supervision. We thank God everyday that she's compliant.

As for our son who has numerous mental health challenges (who I mentioned above), we have no idea where he is. That absolutely rattles me to the core. I follow him by checking out the inmate list of our county jail.

I need to know more about this family before I point fingers.

 

[fran]

Might be related, but maybe not. What I found chilling were the comments on the article. "Log Cabin Republican' infers he was gay. Overall I found them disturbing. I wonder what is going on in Arizona? Could this have been a right wing militia hit?

FWIW, read further into this man's demise, {google} is your friend.

This person's death was not a right wing militia hit. He had problems and his family has been up-front about it. He had MANY years of accomplishments and one year of..................self destruciton.

My thoughts and prayers are with his family, as well as all the people personally touched by this past weekend's crime, and yes, tragedy.

JMHO
fran

 

[Padua]

Nova--Don't worry, you and I are on the same page. I am well aware of "female hysteria" and am sort of an asylum history buff. Remember, I've had a child who did two separate year long stints at the old Oregon State Hospital. The subject fascinates me as I've lived/live it. However, I happen to believe that we've swung too far in the opposite direction. It's fabulous to save public funds and to feel evolved about allowing the disabled/intellectually challenged/mentally ill to choose their own path. It's quite another to put society or the individual at great risk, all in the name of "progress".

I happen to be the mother of a young woman with a 50 IQ who cannot get Depo shots as she doesn't quite understand their purpose and thus cannot sign consent. And this is a young lady who has suffered from a horrific rape and who hasn't a clue about handling her menstruation. She's 22, the size of a 10 year old, and with the mind of a 7 year old. There's no way she could survive a pregnancy. We shadow her 24 hours a day but live in fear that something will happen beyond our supervision. We thank God everyday that she's compliant.

As for our son who has numerous mental health challenges (who I mentioned above), we have no idea where he is. That absolutely rattles me to the core. I follow him by checking out the inmate list of our county jail.

I need to know more about this family before I point fingers.

Why can't you sign consent? Anyone with an IQ of that level has a power of attorney which would be a parent.

 

[gitana1]

My point is when we start saying people that have never been convicted of a crime, no involuntary committed.....so when do we decide who should have children and who shouldn't!
My husband has a front lobe injury, with his medication's he does well but without them yes he could be violent, and because his behavior is odd sometime's, people get nervous with him!
This shooting is so near to my heart, it is almost like reliving what happened to us....I don't want to give the shooter any rights but in the same breath, I want to protect the right to own a gun!

I don't see the direct connection between trying to limit certain people's access to dangerous weapons and laws that determine who can and can't have kids. Although limiting the ability of crazy people or criminals to have kids may not be such a bad thing. In any event, I think the right to own a gun should be limited to those who are not criminals and do not have diagnosed mental issues. I don't think either of those would have protected the people that got shot by Loughner, though. He was not really a criminal (except petty vandalism) and it doesn't look like he'd been diagnosed yet.

Reading the posts by Songline, Hockeymom, Missizzy and Nova, one can really see the dilemma. Do we allow for involuntary treatment or assessments based on the say so of relatives, or some sort of authority like college admins etc.? Do we allow for involuntary long-term lock-up of persistently mentally ill people who won't stay on their medications? What about all the abuses that occurred when such was allowed? How husbands and fathers used the laws to control women? How certain people seen as non-conformist were subjugated by such laws? And yet, I hear of so many horror stories from people watching their loved one suffer or suffering as a result of uncontrolled nuts that are free to harass them.

My roommate's mom and step-dad moved into a house in NV that had been inhabited by a clearly crazy women, before they bought it. They were not told prior to the purchase (I think it was either foreclosed on or sold and she was evicted). After they moved in, the crazy lady started showing up demanding that they leave her house, coming to get her mail, tossing theirs, etc. Then she started breaking in. They came home from a vacation once to find all their frozen meat (step-dad's a hunter, so there was a ton), all over the living room and she was in there, in the back bedroom, hiding by the bed with a knife.

This couple have gone to several commitment hearings to beg that this scary woman be locked up long-term. Most of the time she is released after 72 hours. Sometimes she's not committed at all. She had a mother that disappeared once after a drive with her daughter in the desert. Daughter had her purse, IIRC. Mom has never been seen since. And yet this couple are powerless to totally protect themselves from this woman. That's just wrong.

 

[Padua]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYY-a0_Bb9Y&feature=fvst[/ame]

can't say anymore than this....It is a mad world.

 

[Missizzy]

Padua--"Signing" for birth control for a mentally disabled adult is simply not permissible in Oregon. We also have a young adult special needs daughter with an IQ of 63. She is trafficked as a prostitute in Sacramento. The FBI and the Sacramento Sheriff's dept. knows where she is but she's an adult. She has rights to do as she wishes. If either of our daughters became pregnant via a rape we would not have a say in what happened. Can our ID (Intellectually Disabled, the new correct term per Rosa's Law) citizens give consent to a sexual relationship? I honestly don't know. I've read the law a hundred times, consulted our DA, and even the AG and can't get a clear answer. Trust me, I study this issue day in and day out.

We cannot take away the sexual and reproductive rights of citizens. Simple as that. If we did, we'd be returning to the days of "One Flies Over the Cuckoo's Nest" and forced sterilizations. I spent three years attempting to gain power of attorney for my mother who has Alzheimer's and was never successful.

What if we suddenly decided that women over 38 shouldn't have children as they have a higher rate of difficulties or that men who have ever been sexually abused should never father a child? It's all fine and good until it gets a little too close for comfort. Everyone has a vastly different ideas as to where the "line" is.

Moving on.....I noted that neighbors say that "things changed" at the Loughner house about 15 years ago. Jared was not allowed to leave the house and watched children playing from the window. That does not sound like self-imposed isolation but rather parental control. Possibly his pre-school behaviors frightened his parents and they isolated him, possibly he was being abused...who knows? I still wonder about the verbal outbursts and nonsensical speech. Where are his grade school teachers?

It's mentioned that he volunteered at the animal shelter. I wanted to point out that in many areas, work at the animal shelter is a community service activity to satisfy a court order. Neighbors say that he frequently walked his dog. Where is that dog? It's not at the shrine or in the black bag, is it?

I also wanted to say that I am sick to death of hearing about the pot smoking. I am not a pot smoker but I've researched it's use and abuse. I think it is far more pertinent to look at these facts:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loug...tion-tucson-shooting/story?id=12587114&page=2

Loughner consumed marijuana, cocaine, psilocybin mushrooms and the hallucigenic salvia.

From everything I've read, the mushrooms are the most worrisome. We have many many threads on horrid crimes committed by those under the influence of mushrooms. They can also permanently change the chemistry of the brain and can exacerbate psychosis. I didn't see huffing mentioned but it wouldn't surprise me and would certainly fit the profile. Very very scary, IMO.

Adnoid, my heart goes out to you. I've been there, more than once, and it changes your life forever. Such a conundrum. A seriously mentally ill person's reality is quite simply not our reality.

 

[Padua]

Padua--" She is trafficked as a prostitute in Sacramento. The FBI and the Sacramento Sheriff's dept. knows where she is but she's an adult. She has rights to do as she wishes. If either of our daughters became pregnant via a rape we would not have a say in what happened. Can our ID (Intellectually Disabled, the new correct term per Rosa's Law) citizens give consent to a sexual relationship? I honestly don't know. I've read the law a hundred times, consulted our DA, and even the AG and can't get a clear answer. Trust me, I study this issue day in and day out.

We cannot take away the sexual and reproductive rights of citizens. Simple as that. If we did, we'd be returning to the days of "One Flies Over the Cuckoo's Nest" and forced sterilizations. I spent three years attempting to gain power of attorney for my mother who has Alzheimer's and was never successful.

What if we suddenly decided that women over 38 shouldn't have children as they have a higher rate of difficulties or that men who have ever been sexually abused should never father a child? It's all fine and good until it gets a little too close for comfort. Everyone has a vastly different ideas as to where the "line" is.

Moving on.....I noted that neighbors say that "things changed" at the Loughner house about 15 years ago. Jared was not allowed to leave the house and watched children playing from the window. That does not sound like self-imposed isolation but rather parental control. Possibly his pre-school behaviors frightened his parents and they isolated him, possibly he was being abused...who knows? I still wonder about the verbal outbursts and nonsensical speech. Where are his grade school teachers?

It's mentioned that he volunteered at the animal shelter. I wanted to point out that in many areas, work at the animal shelter is a community service activity to satisfy a court order. Neighbors say that he frequently walked his dog. Where is that dog? It's not at the shrine or in the black bag, is it?

I also wanted to say that I am sick to death of hearing about the pot smoking. I am not a pot smoker but I've researched it's use and abuse. I think it is far more pertinent to look at these facts:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loug...tion-tucson-shooting/story?id=12587114&page=2

Loughner consumed marijuana, cocaine, psilocybin mushrooms and the hallucigenic salvia.

From everything I've read, the mushrooms are the most worrisome. We have many many threads on horrid crimes committed by those under the influence of mushrooms. They can also permanently change the chemistry of the brain and can exacerbate psychosis. I didn't see huffing mentioned but it wouldn't surprise me and would certainly fit the profile. Very very scary, IMO.

Adnoid, my heart goes out to you. I've been there, more than once, and it changes your life forever. Such a conundrum. A seriously mentally ill person's reality is quite simply not our reality.

Signing" for birth control for a mentally disabled adult is simply not permissible in Oregon. We also have a young adult special needs daughter with an IQ of 63.


you said IQ of 50. how many special needs kids do you have?

 

[Padua]

it is a mad world.

 

[Missizzy]

Padua--I am the mother of fourteen children. Three born to my husband and me. Two adopted in infancy from Korea. And nine adopted domestically--all with myriad special needs. All but one are adults. My entire adult life has been dedicated to the issues of the prenatally substance exposed child, special education, adoption issues, post adoption supports and services, treatment for the sexually abused child, the eradication of child , crimes victims rights, and mental health care for children and the disabled. I'm an advocate, writer and a former lobbyist. I have a strong interest in the societal implications of crime and what leads a young person to commit a crime. I also happen to be a pacifist.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Missizzy]

I know fixations can be on absolutely anything. But the subject of grammar coming from a 22 year old is surprising. Grammar, per se, isn't really taught as a subject past 3rd-4th grade. It's been tossed into the same bin as elocution and cursive writing. The word is rarely used anymore. You might hear form or format or composition, but not grammar. I noticed that Loughner was photographed at some sort of a book event but he doesn't seem fixated on books, just grammar. And from the little I've seen of his writing, he didn't excel in the subject.

http://www.myfoxchattanooga.com/dpp...oughner-Dems-Target-Political-Speech_38958756

The Scary World of Jared Loughner; Dems Target Political Speech
Grammar Fixation Drove Shooting Suspect

"How do you know words mean anything?”


-- Question asked by Jared Loughner of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., at their first meeting at a 2007 “Congress on Your Corner” event. Loughner’s high-school friend AM told the Wall Street Journal that Loughner became “aggravated” because she ignored his question...."

and

"....Loughner’s rants, recorded online and by friends and classmates, have to do with some things that might be associated with the right, like his call for a return to the gold standard, some things that might be associated with the left, like his anger over the dissemination of Bibles by the U.S. Army, and some things that are not associated with anything, like his grammar obsession and a mathematical tic that seems to involve prime numbers..."

more at link



I have a feeling that the formal rules of grammar and prime numbers are merely a way to hang onto reality. A professional man I know who has Asperger's carries small calendars wherever he goes. He doesn't merely keep them in his pocket or hold them. No, he must hold them up across his eyes when he speaks to you. His eyes rarely leave those regimented dates. He must hold onto them to maintain control.


Also, an odd thing that I keep encountering. Has anyone else seen this header on google~

Jared Loughner Money Trail: Family's Lifestyle Aided By Settlement ...

"Much of the money accused Tucson shooter Jared Loughner and his family had apparently came from a settlement with his elementary school..."

When you open the different articles with that header that subject is not covered. It's even on the abc site. I'm curious, what settlement? And was it from one of these schools as listed by Jared, himself:

"Schools: I attended school: Thornydale elementary,Tortolita Middle School, Mountain View Highschool, Northwest Aztec Middle College, and Pima Community College."

I hate to tell him this but he made a couple of errors in grammar.

 

[Missizzy]

Here's another header from Google. This one shows up as being on the Huffington Post. What am I missing? You open it and this phrase does not exist in the article. Is it being squelched, for some reason?

"ABC Exclusive: jared loughner's family money came from a settlement after he fell off the......"

Fell of the what? What settlement? Are we dealing with a young man with a serious head injury from childhood? According to Jared, he went on to attend other Tucson schools. If he'd been physically harmed on school property and even awarded a settlement, those schools would have made darn sure his needs were met, IMO.

The neighbors say that things changed at the Loughner house about 15 years ago. Well, Jared would have been in 1st or 2nd grade. Was he injured?

Can anyone help explain this? Just so I don't think I've lost my marbles in the morning:

From Google~
Jared Loughner Money Trail: Family's Lifestyle Aided By Settlement ...
Jan 11, 2011 ... Much of the money accused Tucson shooter Jared Loughner and his family had apparently came from a settlement with his elementary school ...
abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loughner-money-trail-familys.../story?id...

and

Jared Loughner Money Trail: Family's Lifestyle Aided By Settlement ...
Jan 11, 2011 ... Jared Lee Loughner's Family Sued School Over Playground Fall ... Friend Says Loughners Lived Off Settlement When Jared Fell From Playset ... had apparently came from a settlement with his elementary school after Loughner ...
abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loughner-money-trail-familys.../story?id...


Possibly it's a breaking story that has a headline but isn't quite ready for print yet. That's what happens when I stay up 'til 1:30 am.

 

[Allusonz]

Why can't you sign consent? Anyone with an IQ of that level has a power of attorney which would be a parent.

In my case although it was my mother from a stroke, a family member objected. In order for me to maintain control it required going to court. Not often as cut and dried as it would seem and this was my experience only.