GUILTY AZ - Six killed, 13 injured in shooting at Gabrielle Giffords event, 8 Jan 2011 - #2

[i.b.nora]

Videos show Tucson shooting in detail, sources say

By David Nakamura and Sari Horwitz
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, January 18, 2011; 5:02 PM

"TUCSON - Safeway store surveillance videos clearly show Rep. Gabrielle Giffords being shot in the face above the left eye from about two to three feet away by accused gunman Jared Loughner, who moments later killed U.S. District Judge John Roll as he tried to take cover under a table, two sources who have viewed the footage said Tuesday.

Roll appears to be also trying to help Ron Barber, who was wounded in the attack, as Roll is seen on the video pushing Barber to the ground and getting on top of him, the sources said."

and

"Authorities have recovered nearly two dozen surveillance videos from inside and outside the Tucson grocery store ... ."

"Investigators believe Loughner entered the store bathroom to put on earplugs minutes before the rampage. He is seen on video talking to a clerk while pointing toward his own ears."

and

"... investigators also have interviewed a friend of Loughner's who told them that sometime between Christmas and New Year's Day, Loughner showed the friend his gun. When the friend asked why he needed a firearm, Loughner responded, "For protection around the house," the sources said."

The article goes on to talk in greater detail about what was in the store surveillance videos.

And this snippet, which I thought was interesting: "Also, sources provided more details about photographs that Loughner dropped off at a Walgreens store and picked up the morning of the shooting. The pictures included one of the gun and others of him holding the gun and wearing a red G-string. The sources said that Walgreens policy is to make copies of suspicious-looking photos, which the store clerks did with Loughner's pictures."

More ...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

With all due respect, if the shooter's beef were merely personal and his aim merely revenge, he would have shot the congresswoman and left it at that.

Instead, he chose to shoot 18 other people, most of them presumably her supporters.

THAT is political.

I don't agree. They ran from him and some rushed toward him..............THEN he saw them all as the enemy in his insane mind.

IMO, in his insanity he knew he held the power to kill at will. I no more think he came to kill others but when he had the opportunity he took it. 18 more wouldn't make a difference to him after he had already shot Gabbie. He knew if he killed Gabbie he was going to prison forever anyway.

In his paranoia he probably thought they were all going to rush him.



IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I disagree. I don't think this was political at all. It was the product of mental illness, delusions, disorganized thinking, and paranoia.

I totally agree. Once he shot Gabbie he would have shot anyone who was around even if they had not even been part of her group even if they were just walking by.

IMO

 

[Steely Dan]

With all due respect, if the shooter's beef were merely personal and his aim merely revenge, he would have shot the congresswoman and left it at that.

Instead, he chose to shoot 18 other people, most of them presumably her supporters.

THAT is political.

I disagree, I think this was more that he felt dissed by her than anything else. She could have been a college professor that dissed him. Anyway, until we know more we can't say for sure.

 

[gitana1]

I meant to post this earlier but I was looking for a longer version of the AP article and haven't found one yet.

Loughner's friend called 911 after shooting

Article talks about a 911 call that was made after the shooting by {mod snip} BT, a friend of Jared's, who told the dispatcher that the "shooter was someone that I knew" and that Loughner left a message on his phone at 2 a.m. on the day of the shooting.

Pima Sheriff has released at least 4 of the 911 calls for anyone who is interested. http://pimasheriff.org

These were the most intense calls I have heard since 911. Wow. The first call, the dispatcher seemed to become so shaken up. Her voice almost seemed like she was trying to hold back tears. So was I.

 

[i.b.nora]

Wall Street Journal Corrections & Amplifications

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703954004576090101169490590.html

On Jan. 8 Jared Loughner allegedly shot 19 people in Tucson, Ariz., killing six and wounding 13. One additional person was injured in the shooting but wasn't shot. Several articles since the shooting incorrectly stated that 20 people were shot.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Hi there, limited time but here is a good article for you to read about that defense, I will comment in a bit:

http://www.astcweb.org/public/publi...notated-bibliography-of-the-GBMI-&-NGRI-pleas

Great link.. here's another from the frontline special.http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html#gbmi

People get so outraged at the thought of the insanity defense but what they don't seem to realize is that the insanity defense is not easily obtained. My problem with this guy is that he seems to have been able to plan this out. This just doesn't seem like spur of the moment to me. I have a psychotic disorder (Bipolar with psychotic features) and know that while psychotic it's very difficult to plan- to be able to think straight enough to plan. Goal directed behavior is pretty much impossible while in such a state IMO. So.. while I agree he's clearly mentally ill, I'd love to know more about his actions before hand to make up my mind as to how severly mentally ill he is (not that my opinion matters LOL but I'm just so curious as to how this was missed for so long and how he was able to plan this so well if he was so sick.)

Anyway, as to the insanity defense.. even if a person is "insane" at the time of a crime if the crime was not directly related to the illness it can't be used as a defense. An example- If I am psychotic and I steal from a store because I'm out of smokes or I steal a car because I have no ride..my mental illness has no direct influence on my crime. If I stole the car to get away from the dudes who implanted devices in my brain or stole tinfoil from the store to make myself a lil' hat to keep 'em from spying on my thoughts, perhaps then I could use an insanity defense but even that would be difficult (I know the insanity defense can't be used for such minor crimes, I'm just using these as examples of how the crime has nothing to do with the illness). The other thing about the insanity defense is often times when a person is found NGBRI they can (and often do) spend more time locked up in the state hospital then they would have had they went to prison. Jurors (and regular ol' members of society) aren't told this and are often under the impression that they will be set "free" after found NGBRI (I realize you know all this already and don't need me telling you it.. I'm just using your post as a jumping off point).

I have not been to prison but I have been to jail and I have been commited to psych hospitals (maximum security and non) and I am here to tell you- I'd rather spend my time in jail. Jail has bars keeping the murderers and the rapists and the child molesters locked up away from the non-violent offenders. The child molesters are kept safe from the people who want to snuff out their lives.. the other people are kept reasonably safe from being molested by the molesters. In a psych hospital you roam freely- mixed together with only hospital staff to keep you safe.. not to mention the hospital staff must keep themselves safe as well from these insane murderers/rapists/etc who have shown in a court of law that they do not know right from wrong and have a history of not being able to control their psychotic impulses. The only weapons in a maximum security psych hospital are drugs and losing privledges.. after awhile their drugs are no longer a threat because you come to welcome the numbness they provide. I'm not trying to say there is all kinds of violence in these places because there isn't but it is not comfortable living with constant "insanity".. even when you yourself are "insane". Insanity breeds insanity. When a person "gets off" on NGBRI trust me, they are not "getting off" or "getting away" with anything.

Back to this kid and this crime.. I do question psychosis simply because of his apparent ability to plan this rampage. I wish we knew more about him.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I disagree. I don't think this was political at all. It was the product of mental illness, delusions, disorganized thinking, and paranoia.

His thinking couldn't have been that disorganized if he planned this and from what I have read he planned to kill her.

 

[Steely Dan]

Great link.. here's another from the frontline special.http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html#gbmi

People get so outraged at the thought of the insanity defense but what they don't seem to realize is that the insanity defense is not easily obtained. My problem with this guy is that he seems to have been able to plan this out. This just doesn't seem like spur of the moment to me. I have a psychotic disorder (Bipolar with psychotic features) and know that while psychotic it's very difficult to plan- to be able to think straight enough to plan. Goal directed behavior is pretty much impossible while in such a state IMO. So.. while I agree he's clearly mentally ill, I'd love to know more about his actions before hand to make up my mind as to how severly mentally ill he is (not that my opinion matters LOL but I'm just so curious as to how this was missed for so long and how he was able to plan this so well if he was so sick.)

Anyway, as to the insanity defense.. even if a person is "insane" at the time of a crime if the crime was not directly related to the illness it can't be used as a defense. An example- If I am psychotic and I steal from a store because I'm out of smokes or I steal a car because I have no ride..my mental illness has no direct influence on my crime. If I stole the car to get away from the dudes who implanted devices in my brain or stole tinfoil from the store to make myself a lil' hat to keep 'em from spying on my thoughts, perhaps then I could use an insanity defense but even that would be difficult (I know the insanity defense can't be used for such minor crimes, I'm just using these as examples of how the crime has nothing to do with the illness). The other thing about the insanity defense is often times when a person is found NGBRI they can (and often do) spend more time locked up in the state hospital then they would have had they went to prison. Jurors (and regular ol' members of society) aren't told this and are often under the impression that they will be set "free" after found NGBRI (I realize you know all this already and don't need me telling you it.. I'm just using your post as a jumping off point).

I have not been to prison but I have been to jail and I have been commited to psych hospitals (maximum security and non) and I am here to tell you- I'd rather spend my time in jail. Jail has bars keeping the murderers and the rapists and the child molesters locked up away from the non-violent offenders. The child molesters are kept safe from the people who want to snuff out their lives.. the other people are kept reasonably safe from being molested by the molesters. In a psych hospital you roam freely- mixed together with only hospital staff to keep you safe.. not to mention the hospital staff must keep themselves safe as well from these insane murderers/rapists/etc who have shown in a court of law that they do not know right from wrong and have a history of not being able to control their psychotic impulses. The only weapons in a maximum security psych hospital are drugs and losing privledges.. after awhile their drugs are no longer a threat because you come to welcome the numbness they provide. I'm not trying to say there is all kinds of violence in these places because there isn't but it is not comfortable living with constant "insanity".. even when you yourself are "insane". Insanity breeds insanity. When a person "gets off" on NGBRI trust me, they are not "getting off" or "getting away" with anything.

Back to this kid and this crime.. I do question psychosis simply because of his apparent ability to plan this rampage. I wish we knew more about him.

I think what sunk him is the piece of paper saying "I planned this". That should stop the insanity defense cold in it's tracks. JMO

The stuff they give to unruly patients, at least when I was a pharmacy tech, is called Haldol. It was code named vitamin H.

 

[Cypros]

Great link.. here's another from the frontline special.http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html#gbmi

People get so outraged at the thought of the insanity defense but what they don't seem to realize is that the insanity defense is not easily obtained. My problem with this guy is that he seems to have been able to plan this out. This just doesn't seem like spur of the moment to me. I have a psychotic disorder (Bipolar with psychotic features) and know that while psychotic it's very difficult to plan- to be able to think straight enough to plan. Goal directed behavior is pretty much impossible while in such a state IMO. So.. while I agree he's clearly mentally ill, I'd love to know more about his actions before hand to make up my mind as to how severly mentally ill he is (not that my opinion matters LOL but I'm just so curious as to how this was missed for so long and how he was able to plan this so well if he was so sick.)

Anyway, as to the insanity defense.. even if a person is "insane" at the time of a crime if the crime was not directly related to the illness it can't be used as a defense. An example- If I am psychotic and I steal from a store because I'm out of smokes or I steal a car because I have no ride..my mental illness has no direct influence on my crime. If I stole the car to get away from the dudes who implanted devices in my brain or stole tinfoil from the store to make myself a lil' hat to keep 'em from spying on my thoughts, perhaps then I could use an insanity defense but even that would be difficult (I know the insanity defense can't be used for such minor crimes, I'm just using these as examples of how the crime has nothing to do with the illness). The other thing about the insanity defense is often times when a person is found NGBRI they can (and often do) spend more time locked up in the state hospital then they would have had they went to prison. Jurors (and regular ol' members of society) aren't told this and are often under the impression that they will be set "free" after found NGBRI (I realize you know all this already and don't need me telling you it.. I'm just using your post as a jumping off point).

I have not been to prison but I have been to jail and I have been commited to psych hospitals (maximum security and non) and I am here to tell you- I'd rather spend my time in jail. Jail has bars keeping the murderers and the rapists and the child molesters locked up away from the non-violent offenders. The child molesters are kept safe from the people who want to snuff out their lives.. the other people are kept reasonably safe from being molested by the molesters. In a psych hospital you roam freely- mixed together with only hospital staff to keep you safe.. not to mention the hospital staff must keep themselves safe as well from these insane murderers/rapists/etc who have shown in a court of law that they do not know right from wrong and have a history of not being able to control their psychotic impulses. The only weapons in a maximum security psych hospital are drugs and losing privledges.. after awhile their drugs are no longer a threat because you come to welcome the numbness they provide. I'm not trying to say there is all kinds of violence in these places because there isn't but it is not comfortable living with constant "insanity".. even when you yourself are "insane". Insanity breeds insanity. When a person "gets off" on NGBRI trust me, they are not "getting off" or "getting away" with anything.

Back to this kid and this crime.. I do question psychosis simply because of his apparent ability to plan this rampage. I wish we knew more about him.

Thank you for your insights, OneLostGirl. I also think that the planning and forethought that is apparent from the evidence reported, works against insanity. I will not be surprised if much of the seemingly psychotic behavior proves to be intentional.

I have known students in class who are intentionally disruptive or inappropriate because they don't want to be there and this is the way they entertain themselves or because they just enjoy getting a rise out of the teacher or annoying and shocking the other students.

 

[Nancy2441]

Giffords feared being shot:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/19/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T2

 

[Steely Dan]

Giffords feared being shot:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/19/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T2

From the article;

..."She loves southern Arizona more than anything," he told CNN affiliate KGUN. "She's here every week, doing stuff like 'Congress on your Corner' and I'm sure the first thing she's gonna do, when she's ready, is a 'Congress on your Corner' at that Safeway" where the shooting occurred.

The outpouring of support has been tremendous, Kelly said, including an elementary school student who sent his $2.85 in lunch money to Giffords with a card.

"I sealed it back up and we're gonna give it back to him," Kelly said. "It almost made me cry just standing there in the room, just to see the kid put his lunch money in the envelope for her."'

Gloria Giffords wrote in the e-mail that her daughter has hard work ahead of her. She has been moving her limbs on command, according to the e-mail, and doctors have had her sitting up in a chair....



BBM

:getwell::sunshine::bow::tears::blowkiss:

 

[songline]

Giffords feared being shot:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/19/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T2

thanks Nancy, great article. good read.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Gabrielle Gifford's husband won my heart after watching him last night on tv. What a man, so confident on her recovery and his love for Gabrielle. An amazing couple.

 

[redsky]

In terms of this being a product of mental illness: he could have developed an obsession with her and due to a MI he was unable to rationally eliminate those thoughts. That doesn't mean that he can state he was insane at that time. The planning was far too thorough for that.
Just because someone has a MI doesn't mean they are able to claim they are insane to evade criminal charges.
Just my few cents this afternoon.

 

[LinasK]

Posted at 2:20 PM ET, 01/19/2011 By Dana Hedgpeth and David Nakamura
Rep. Gabrielle Giffords could be released from Tucson's University Medical Center as early as Friday and moved to a rehabilitation facility, one of her doctors said.
In a brief interview with The Washington Post late Tuesday, medical director Dr. Peter Rhee said: "Things are going as well as could be and she hasn't taken any steps backward."
Asked when she might leave the hospital to transfer to a rehabilitation center, Rhee said, "as early as Friday or as long as it takes for us to resolve whatever acute problems that may arise."
He said Giffords is still at risk for such set-backs as infection or pneumonia.
Giffords is one of two shooting victims of the Jan. 8 rampage that killed six and left 13 injured who remains hospitalized.<snip>The Giffords family has reportedly been eyeing three rehabilitation centers: in Phoenix, Houston and Washington's Walter Reed Army Medical Center. News reports Wednesday, citing a letter from Giffords's mother, said that the family has possibly settled on the Memorial Hermann Hospital Texas Institute of Rehabilitation and Research. more at link: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/gabrielle-giffords-could-be-re.html

 

[Dr. Know?]

Since our local news said Congresswoman Gifford's would be moved Friday to a rehab in Texas, then reports saying she was not, here's an article with Mark Kelly's statement.


Giffords' family confirms expected move to Houston hospital

http://www.kvoa.com/news/giffords-f...pital/?utm_source=KVOA.com&utm_medium=twitter

 

[songline]

Gabrielle Gifford's husband won my heart after watching him last night on tv. What a man, so confident on her recovery and his love for Gabrielle. An amazing couple.

I did not see it,
but when I watched the presidents speech I can sense her husbands strength and love...Don'T ask me how. 6th sense maybe.

 

[LinasK]

Since our local news said Congresswoman Gifford's would be moved Friday to a rehab in Texas, then reports saying she was not, here's an article with Mark Kelly's statement.


Giffords' family confirms expected move to Houston hospital

http://www.kvoa.com/news/giffords-f...pital/?utm_source=KVOA.com&utm_medium=twitter

My guess is because it's for security reasons they don't want it known where she is going...

 

[i.b.nora]

Federal grand jury indicts Loughner in Giffords shooting

by Yvonne Wingett and Michael Kiefer - Jan. 19, 2011 05:36 PM
The Arizona Republic

"A federal grand jury in Tucson today handed up a first round of indictments against suspected Tucson shooter Jared Loughner, charging him with the attempted assassination of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the attempted murders of her aides Ron Barber and Pam Simon."

and

"Superseding indictments are expected within the next 60 days in the murders of U.S. District Judge John Roll and Giffords' aide Gabe Zimmerman. Sources indicated that the indictments would be done piecemeal in order to meet constitutional requirements."

and

""This case also involves potential death-penalty charges, and (Justice) Department rules require us to pursue a deliberate and thorough process," Burke said. "Today's charges are just the beginning of our legal action. We are working diligently to ensure that our investigation is thorough and that justice is done for the victims and their families."

By federal law, defendants in felony cases must be indicted within 30 days in order to hold them in custody."

more...