GUILTY AZ - Six killed, 13 injured in shooting at Gabrielle Giffords event, 8 Jan 2011 - #2

[arielilane]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loughners-alleged-rampage-caught-tape-fbi-reviews/story?id=12644306
Video at link

Jared Loughner's Alleged Rampage Caught on Tape: FBI Reviews Surveillance Video


Cameras Capture Deadly Shooting, Hero Federal Judge's Attempt to Save Another Man

The FBI is reviewing a chilling surveillance video of the Tucson shooting rampage that shows the horrific scene in clear detail, and acts of heroism including federal Judge John Roll being gunned down as he tries to help another man.

The shooting left six people dead and at least 13 others wounded including Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords at a Tucson shopping center.
On the surveillance video, according to people who have seen the tape, Roll, 63, pushes Giffords staffer Ron Barber to the ground in an attempt to get him out of the line of fire. Both men hit the ground. Barber survived his wounds, but Roll, who was shot in the back, did not.
The tapes are in the custody of the FBI and won't likely be released until trial but they vividly show the sequence of events that unfolded the morning of Jan. 8.

Judge Roll clearly was a hero!

 

[panthera]

My guess is because it's for security reasons they don't want it known where she is going...

This article, however, states exactly where she would be going. :waitasec:

"KVOA in Tucson first reported the news about Giffords standing up. Earlier, in a statement released by Giffords' congressional office, Giffords' husband, astronaut Mark Kelly, said his wife will be moved — likely Friday barring medical issues — to TIRR Memorial Hermann Rehabilitation Hospital in Houston. Doctors say the exact timing of the move will depend on Giffords' health."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41151832/ns/us_news-life

 

[LinasK]

This article, however, states exactly where she would be going. :waitasec:

"KVOA in Tucson first reported the news about Giffords standing up. Earlier, in a statement released by Giffords' congressional office, Giffords' husband, astronaut Mark Kelly, said his wife will be moved — likely Friday barring medical issues — to TIRR Memorial Hermann Rehabilitation Hospital in Houston. Doctors say the exact timing of the move will depend on Giffords' health."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41151832/ns/us_news-life

I did read that this hospital is/are specialists in Traumatic Brain Injury, so she's going to get the best of care there!

 

[i.b.nora]

When the first reports came out that Gabrielle Giffords would possibly be released from the hospital on Friday, it was also reported that the family was considering rehab centers in Washington, New York, Chicago and Houston.

Later in the day, it was reported that they had settled on Houston.

 

[Steely Dan]

I did read that this hospital is/are specialists in Traumatic Brain Injury, so she's going to get the best of care there!

IIRC, that's where they sent Kevin Everett, I pretty sure it's the best in the US.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Department of Justice Press Release

Jared Lee Loughner Indicted

http://phoenix.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel11/px011911.htm

 

[panthera]

When the first reports came out that Gabrielle Giffords would possibly be released from the hospital on Friday, it was also reported that the family was considering rehab centers in Washington, New York, Chicago and Houston.

Later in the day, it was reported that they had settled on Houston.

Thanks - the first report I saw apparently was after they'd made the decision. It seems to be one of the best places for her, and she'll be close to where her husband is and family.

 

[gitana1]

Great link.. here's another from the frontline special.http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html#gbmi

People get so outraged at the thought of the insanity defense but what they don't seem to realize is that the insanity defense is not easily obtained. My problem with this guy is that he seems to have been able to plan this out. This just doesn't seem like spur of the moment to me. I have a psychotic disorder (Bipolar with psychotic features) and know that while psychotic it's very difficult to plan- to be able to think straight enough to plan. Goal directed behavior is pretty much impossible while in such a state IMO. So.. while I agree he's clearly mentally ill, I'd love to know more about his actions before hand to make up my mind as to how severly mentally ill he is (not that my opinion matters LOL but I'm just so curious as to how this was missed for so long and how he was able to plan this so well if he was so sick.)

Anyway, as to the insanity defense.. even if a person is "insane" at the time of a crime if the crime was not directly related to the illness it can't be used as a defense. An example- If I am psychotic and I steal from a store because I'm out of smokes or I steal a car because I have no ride..my mental illness has no direct influence on my crime. If I stole the car to get away from the dudes who implanted devices in my brain or stole tinfoil from the store to make myself a lil' hat to keep 'em from spying on my thoughts, perhaps then I could use an insanity defense but even that would be difficult (I know the insanity defense can't be used for such minor crimes, I'm just using these as examples of how the crime has nothing to do with the illness). The other thing about the insanity defense is often times when a person is found NGBRI they can (and often do) spend more time locked up in the state hospital then they would have had they went to prison. Jurors (and regular ol' members of society) aren't told this and are often under the impression that they will be set "free" after found NGBRI (I realize you know all this already and don't need me telling you it.. I'm just using your post as a jumping off point).

I have not been to prison but I have been to jail and I have been commited to psych hospitals (maximum security and non) and I am here to tell you- I'd rather spend my time in jail. Jail has bars keeping the murderers and the rapists and the child molesters locked up away from the non-violent offenders. The child molesters are kept safe from the people who want to snuff out their lives.. the other people are kept reasonably safe from being molested by the molesters. In a psych hospital you roam freely- mixed together with only hospital staff to keep you safe.. not to mention the hospital staff must keep themselves safe as well from these insane murderers/rapists/etc who have shown in a court of law that they do not know right from wrong and have a history of not being able to control their psychotic impulses. The only weapons in a maximum security psych hospital are drugs and losing privledges.. after awhile their drugs are no longer a threat because you come to welcome the numbness they provide. I'm not trying to say there is all kinds of violence in these places because there isn't but it is not comfortable living with constant "insanity".. even when you yourself are "insane". Insanity breeds insanity. When a person "gets off" on NGBRI trust me, they are not "getting off" or "getting away" with anything.

Back to this kid and this crime.. I do question psychosis simply because of his apparent ability to plan this rampage. I wish we knew more about him.

I think this kid is insane. I think he had paranoid delusions and some sort of psychosis, possibly at different times. However, I think he knew that what he was doing was wrong (because he worked to conceal his plan), he had the ability to plan it, he worked to conceal his plan until it could be effectuated and he did not believe that he was doing something different from what he actually did. In other words, I don't think he would pass the McNaughton insanity defense test. But, I'm not sure. Your explanation of psychosis and the ability to plan was very informative. I'll be thinking about all of this. Thanks!

 

[Dr. Know?]

This is only a suspicion and nothing more but thought I'd put it out there. I am a local Tucsonan. I have a theory about Fuller who was arrested for making threats to the tea party member. He was supposedly the 20th person shot and was hit in the leg and a bullet grazed his back.

We saw him on local news the day after the shootings and he said he drove himself to the hospital. At the time I wondered how that would have been possible to even get out of the parking lot in that madhouse. And if you've been shot wouldn't you have some level of shock and not be calmly driving yourself to the hospital? There are two exits in that parking lot. Both you can not turn left. The hospital he drove himself to would have been a long way around but no doubt he did it, I can envision his route.

I have a feeling he shot himself. He is obviously an angry man, maybe looking for his 15 mins of fame?

Tonight on the news they showed police using night vision goggles to search the backyard of his house. What are they looking for? Of course they won’t say yet. And my apologies if I am incorrect, just a hunch because something is not right with this man.

Thank you. I don't want to accuse the man either, I keep seeing 19 victims in the news but Dupnik said the Sunday after the shootings, there were 20 because one had driven themselves to the hospital which would be Fuller driving to NW Hospital. Still our local news outlets say 19 not 20, or are overlooking it for a reason.

I brought this up a few days ago about the number of victims and this was also my first thought. I'll see if any of the news stations will answer me.

Hi Deborah!

 

[Dr. Know?]

Video of Jared playing the sax when he was younger. He was very talented. Things happen to change people/children, you may not know them in 6 months. I've seen it first hand. Such a shame if not treated.

The video is on the top right hand side of the page.

http://www.kgun9.com/global/story.asp?s=13874126

 

[Dr. Know?]

Sheriff's Dept. amends timeline of events surrounding shootings

snip

The Pima County Sheriff's Department amended its timeline of events surrounding the Jan. 8 shooting spree that killed six people and wounded U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and 12 others.

more at link

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/cri...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


Sheriff's Department has the number at 19. gah!

 

[Salem]

Hi guys - just a reminder that there is a thread in the PP for everyone's political views regarding this case. It is located here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5983227#post5983227"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


I have removed several posts that would have been better placed in the PP.

Salem

 

[LinasK]

By Brad Poole
TUCSON, Arizona | Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:10pm EST

TUCSON, Arizona (Reuters) - Representative Gabrielle Giffords is beginning to stand up and is scrolling through an iPad as she makes cognitive gains in her recovery, her doctor said on Thursday.
"She is beginning to stand with assistance, she is scrolling through an iPad -- these are all fantastic advances for her. They do show higher cognitive function," Dr. Michael Lemole, chief of neurology at University Medical Center in Tucson, told a news conference.
"But I do want to caution ... that she has a long road ahead of her," he added.
Doctors plan to move the 40-year-old congresswoman on Friday from the Tucson hospital to a rehabilitation center in Houston, Texas, to start the next phase of her recovery.
<snip>Kelly said he believes his wife already has tried to speak but remains unable to talk due to a breathing tube inserted into her windpipe through her neck.
"I feel she's made some attempts," he said.
"She has a tracheostomy. Intellectually, she knows that's there, She knows what that means. In my mind, she's made some attempts." more at link: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70I0E520110120

 

[arizona]

I think this kid is insane. I think he had paranoid delusions and some sort of psychosis, possibly at different times. However, I think he knew that what he was doing was wrong (because he worked to conceal his plan), he had the ability to plan it, he worked to conceal his plan until it could be effectuated and he did not believe that he was doing something different from what he actually did. In other words, I don't think he would pass the McNaughton insanity defense test. But, I'm not sure. Your explanation of psychosis and the ability to plan was very informative. I'll be thinking about all of this. Thanks!

I view this case the same way as you.

But, there are some interesting points to consider. For example, the discussion about Loughner's level of organization and premeditation could just as well apply to a defendant who believed he had no choice but to commit a murder because God commanded him to do so. That particular scenario has many precedents in the history of criminal law. If proven (and that is a big "if"), the law has no choice but to recognize that premediation and organization alone by such a defendant are simply insufficient to negate an insanity defense. Of COURSE the defendant was organized. God told him to kill his wife, after all, so he set about doing it. The more important question remains: if he truly believed this was what God was telling him to do, did he have an appreciation of the difference between right and wrong?

I don't see evidence of a God defense here though, to be clear. Nothing like that has come up in the evidence published by law enforcement so far. It appears more likely that it wasn't God that told him to act, but rather a paranoid and delusional (but sincere) belief that Gabby Giffords was part of an evil government conspiracy to control his mind. She probably became his target because she failed to answer his gibberish question that he asked when he originally met her in 2007. If he believed the conspiracy theory was true, and that belief was sincere, did he appreciate the difference between right and wrong when he decided to shoot her?

A jury will decide.

 

[Nancy2441]

Giffords husband, "She's a fighter":

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/20/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T2

 

[fran]

Just a friendly reminder. This thread is about Congresswoman Gifford and her surviving an assassination attempt. There have been some other developments that pertain to this incident and those too, may be discussed here. However, if there is any other information that has been gathered about any of the other victims and their past legal predicaments, they do not belong on this thread.

We've removed a few posts that dealt with one of the victims. There are some possible legal questions with regard to this other victim, but it is OFF TOPIC to discuss it on this thread.

IF you want to carry on a discussion about Fuller, please start a new thread in Crimes in the News. HOWEVER - if the majority of the discussion is anticipated to be about political viewpoints, then please start the thread in the Political Pavillion. Please remember, no matter where you start the thread, TOS will apply.

If you have any further questions, feel free to pm me or any of the other mods.

Thank you,
fran

 

[Nova]

I think this kid is insane. I think he had paranoid delusions and some sort of psychosis, possibly at different times. However, I think he knew that what he was doing was wrong (because he worked to conceal his plan), he had the ability to plan it, he worked to conceal his plan until it could be effectuated and he did not believe that he was doing something different from what he actually did. In other words, I don't think he would pass the McNaughton insanity defense test. But, I'm not sure. Your explanation of psychosis and the ability to plan was very informative. I'll be thinking about all of this. Thanks!

He took steps to conceal his crime, yes, but he also stopped to go into Safeway with the cab driver to get change, as if he somehow thought he'd be walking away after murdering a congresswoman and her supporters.

I think we have very odd ways of measuring "sanity" in this country, particularly when it comes to legal insanity.

 

[arizona]

He took steps to conceal his crime, yes, but he also stopped to go into Safeway with the cab driver to get change, as if he somehow thought he'd be walking away after murdering a congresswoman and her supporters.

I think we have very odd ways of measuring "sanity" in this country, particularly when it comes to legal insanity.

Maybe he was just stalling for more time, by getting change?

 

[LinasK]

She probably became his target because she failed to answer his gibberish question that he asked when he originally met her in 2007.

From what I've read, I think you're right about this.

 

[GoBrewers]

I have been reading on Jared Loughner since the night of the shooting, have read countless Erad3 (3ared) blogs and his youtube videos...all i can say is it has been clear for over a year he has been out of touch with reality. I, for one, believe it would have been clear enough for friends or family, probably a lot more so for the latter. I have friends who are off base, or a brother of one of my good friends feels he has witnessed a murder in person, but is just off medicine. When i see him, i am on guard but only because i have lost pity because of his lack of care for himself, i used to feel horrible for him. Jared has blog entries ranging from "prove you arent a slave: go" to "the ultimate currency" and it is easy to tell he is as lost from reality in january as he is in december. I honestly find it extremely hard to believe he could have done it alone, or just with the voice in his head running the show (i believe he was the listener in the youtube videos...long confusing story where it appears to me he types to himself...but i feel he is convincing himself rather than the original belief that he is just showing different ways to make himself feel correct, as in he types the first part as his feelings, and the 2nd and 3rd are voices from another...person or voice..calling him "listener")

I will say to me its odd that growing up all the massive government murders i can remember, and mostly used for serial killers, is the full name usage. When he was the original suspect no one involved the Lee, i first noticed it on Fox news 2 days after the shooting, he was "suspect in custody Jared Lee Lougner, for his youtube videos" sorry no link

I do find it hard to believe he would be able to accomplish all this on his own, or would be alone constantly enough not to have simple conversations. I say this because people talk about interests and his were extreme in the form of athiesm, anti-space, and of course his quest to gain new currency and the one language, unless he never said anything to his parents?

Sorry, off topic from Mrs. Gifford. God bless and its great to read how your recovery is going, all the best!