GUILTY AZ - Three die in sweat lodge during spiritual retreat, Yavapai County, 8 Oct 2009

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  • #61
Danaya said:
I was in a sweat lodge five years ago with native 'elders' and almost felt like I was going to suffocate. It was very hot and scary, I was only 16. They didn't let me leave and I made it until the end, afterwards I felt refreshed but would not do one again. I would stick to a sauna but I hate being overheated as it makes me sick.
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I hope I'm not asking too personal of a question, but was there a reason you were in a sweat lodge? (Health reasons, tribal beliefs, or ?) I can't imagine the terror of what you felt.
 
  • #62
  • #63
Boyz_Mum said:
I hope I'm not asking too personal of a question, but was there a reason you were in a sweat lodge? (Health reasons, tribal beliefs, or ?) I can't imagine the terror of what you felt.
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Sure, I was in a drug and alcohol rehabilitation center for 30 days and we had the opportunity to do sweats and smudgings. I really enjoyed the smudging and the sweat was an experience but I didn't know what it entailed. I am sensitive to heat and only stay in a sauna for 5 minutes and I was in this sweat for nearly an hour. They passed around grapes, used a horn like instrument, did native singing and talked to spirits. The elder held my head in her lap when I started to feel faint.
 
  • #64
Danaya said:
Sure, I was in a drug and alcohol rehabilitation center for 30 days and we had the opportunity to do sweats and smudgings. I really enjoyed the smudging and the sweat was an experience but I didn't know what it entailed. I am sensitive to heat and only stay in a sauna for 5 minutes and I was in this sweat for nearly an hour. They passed around grapes, used a horn like instrument, did native singing and talked to spirits. The elder held my head in her lap when I started to feel faint.
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Thanks for answering. The practice is kind of fascinating, IMO. I hadn't thought of the possibility they could be used for cleansing of drug/alcohol from the system. Do you feel as though it was a good addition to the program (aside from your experience)?

I didn't know what a sweat lodge was until this thread. Sorry for asking so many questions!
 
  • #65
Danaya said:
Sure, I was in a drug and alcohol rehabilitation center for 30 days and we had the opportunity to do sweats and smudgings. I really enjoyed the smudging and the sweat was an experience but I didn't know what it entailed. I am sensitive to heat and only stay in a sauna for 5 minutes and I was in this sweat for nearly an hour. They passed around grapes, used a horn like instrument, did native singing and talked to spirits. The elder held my head in her lap when I started to feel faint.
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Danaya-- I am glad that the elder took care of you. My late husband used to do sweats to help people with addictions. A number of years ago he worked in a program in Canada where First Nations people were put through 2 to 4 sweats a day for a week to help get the alcohol and drug toxins out of their bodies. It can be very intense -- even more so for a 16 year old who has had no experience in a sweat lodge.
 
  • #66
Boyz_Mum said:
Thanks for answering. The practice is kind of fascinating, IMO. I hadn't thought of the possibility they could be used for cleansing of drug/alcohol from the system. Do you feel as though it was a good addition to the program (aside from your experience)?

I didn't know what a sweat lodge was until this thread. Sorry for asking so many questions!
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Yes, it was. I liked experiencing another culture and we also had the opportunity to go to church. Reclaiming your spirituality is so important.
 
  • #67
SuziQ said:
This program sounds pretty extreme, IMO. And almost 10K? Holy......

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/10/09/20091009sweatlodgedeaths.html

(snips)
The victims were attending a five-day program called "Spiritual Warrior," hosted by self-help guru and inspirational speaker James Arthur Ray.
Ray, a frequent guest on TV talk shows, calls himself "a personal success strategist," and his Web site details a sampler of international spiritual philosophies that he has fused into his program.

The Angel Valley Spiritual Resort Web site says that Ray has held the workshop there since 2003. And Ray's Web site lists the cost for next year's program at "only $9,695 per person."
The program brochure promises that the participants will push themselves past their "self-imposed and conditioned borders" and "learn (and apply) the awesome power of 'integrity of action.'" It describes the sweat lodge as "a ceremonial sauna involving tight, enclosed spaces and intense temperatures."
Participants in the Ray program also could practice Holotropic Breathwork, a trancelike state brought on by breath control, and Vision Quest, a multi-day stay in the outdoors without food or water, according to the James Ray International literature.
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All I can think after reading this....what a RACKET! 10K to sweat & roast in a big plastic bag............. real luxurious accommodations too! The desert with a sleeping bag.....NO food or WATER.

I read how much money he made last year....just proves to me a sucker is born every minute!

If I am gonna spend 10K on feeling "renewed" ...you'll find my butt on the beach in Hawaii!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
  • #68
PTC said:
The loss of life is tragic. Other than recognizing him from the movie "The Secret", I know nothing of Ray or his organization. But in light of Ms Neuman's passing, I found the following interesting:

From the above link: "Neuman was among Ray's earliest followers and had attended dozens of his events.

According to Ray's Web site, Neuman was the leader of the Minneapolis-area "Journey Expansion Team." The teams, developed by Ray's friends and followers around the country, meet to exchange ideas on his principles.

It sounds as though Ms Neuman was very well acquainted with Ray and his methods, and seems quite likely that she had attended several similar sweat lodges under his direction in the past. In fact, it would appear that she was deeply involved with Ray's organization and, had she not passed away, she may well have faced homicide charges along with Ray.

Now her family plans to sue Ray?

Classy.

Many people don't like this Ray character. I've heard it said that he charges too much, and that he's a fake. While that may be true, does that make him a murderer? Why? Because he conducted a sweat lodge without being an Indian? News flash: A sweat lodge is nothing more than a rudimentary sauna, and similar structures have been built and used by different peoples all over the world for thousands of years.

American Indians have no patent on the concept.

There is nothing inherently dangerous about sweat lodges. I've attended several myself that were run by highly esteemed Apache elders. At times we had as many as 40 people packed into inipis that were much smaller than those used by Ray's group. And those I attended were also covered by plastic tarps and blankets- just like the one in question.

Thousands of sweats are conducted every year without incident, AND without "permits". Something went horribly wrong in that lodge, and I doubt seriously that Ray or any of his team were at fault.

It wasn't that long ago that people still believed in the idea that accidents can happen, and when they did, they provided one another with sympathy, compassion, love and support. These days everyone wants vengeance, blood, and if possible, $$$$$$$.

I don't know about the others, but Neuman clearly knew what to expect as well as Ray did. She was a player, and her family would be every bit as justified in suing her corpse as in suing Ray.
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I kinda wish we still had that thumbs down button-thingy right about now...

I'd say actively blocking other participants (according to witness accounts) from administering CPR to some of the victims as criminally negligent conduct by Ray and his staff, for starters...

You really should read some of the witness reports before pronouncing the family a bunch a bloodsuckers. Why isn't the esteemed Mr. Ray stepping forward to explain himself?
 
  • #69
  • #70
From the last link:

Diesel went on to say that Neuman's family, "…wanted to respond to his recent statement that he did contact the injured. That just isn't true, as regards to Liz. She was admitted to Flagstaff Medical Center as a Jane Doe. Some news agency was able to help my clients find their mother, it was not from anything done by the Ray group or by his staff or by him personally. When they found out that she was the Jane Doe admitted to Flagstaff Medical Center, they came out here and were with her for the partially eight days before she died."

When Neuman was first admitted into the hospital, she was in a semi-conscious state. Had her family been notified she was in the hospital, they might have been able to say their last goodbyes.

"...She has been to two other retreats in the past, and trusted him, and felt comfortable with him regarding his teachings, and believed in his promise that if you follow my teachings your life will be more healthier, both physically and spiritually. She certainly didn't expect to die."

Just for this (not notifying the family and then lying about it) I would be :furious::furious::furious:!

Also, she had been to 2 other retreats. Not dozens. And when 20 of 30 people are sick enough to need a hospital visit, I don't think that's a fluke.
 
  • #71
Linda7NJ said:
All I can think after reading this....what a RACKET! 10K to sweat & roast in a big plastic bag............. real luxurious accommodations too! The desert with a sleeping bag.....NO food or WATER.

I read how much money he made last year....just proves to me a sucker is born every minute!

If I am gonna spend 10K on feeling "renewed" ...you'll find my butt on the beach in Hawaii!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Yes I read his web site and could not believe people would sign up for this. A lot of big words strung together that mean nothing, psychobabble in the extreme. The huge con artist flags should be waving.
 
  • #72
Real Native Americans are appalled, and rightfully so!

way more at link:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/10/22/20091022fakesweatlodge1021.html

structure to the fact that people paid to be there.

"If you ask just about any Native American out there, they will be appalled by this," said Freddie Johnson, language and culture specialist at the Phoenix Indian Center. "It's disturbing to hear that there were three deaths from this so-called sweat lodge."

About 60 people were crowded into a makeshift sweat lodge in the incident earlier this month, authorities said, as part of a spiritual retreat led by self-improvement guru James Arthur Ray. Participants paid $9,000 or more for the series of exercises and seminars.
Johnson said no more than a dozen people, and probably many fewer, should be in a single sweat-lodge ceremony because the experience is supposed to encourage personal interaction.
He said the notion of charging for the experience would be similar to charging admission to a church
. He said a donation of something like tobacco would be appropriate if made afterward.
 
  • #73
I guess Ray fled the area so fast that he or no one on his staff gave the hospitals information on the ones would couldn't speak for themselves. I find it hard to believe that they took their money without their personal information. Wouldn't they have wanted to contact these people to participate (part with their money) in the future?

My understanding is that the participants were not aware of participating in a sweat lodge ceremony until minutes before. Ray says he had a surprise for them. Sounds like he didn't give participants any info or opportunity for these people to make a decision to participate or not.

From descriptions of Ray's behavior inside the sweatlogde, it appears he's grown such a god complex that common sense, empathy and care was the last thing on his mind.
 
  • #74
By not giving the hospital the identities of those who were unable to identify themselves, isn't that enough to charge Ray with something?

I don't know how this man can wake up with himself in the morning. All the money in the world shouldn't be enough to erase a person's conscience. JMO.
 
  • #75
  • #76
  • #77
An Arizona woman who survived James Arthur Ray’s sweat lodge is suing the self-help guru.
Sidney Spencer, 59, said she nearly died from kidney and liver failure after sitting in the Sedona, Ariz., makeshift sweat lodge tent for almost two hours. Her attorney, Ted Schmidt, called the sweat lodge a “death trap.”
"When she came to, she was spitting up blood, she had double vision, she was in intensive care for four and a half days," said Schmidt, according to MyFoxPhoenix.

More at link:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569589,00.html
 
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