GUILTY AZ - Three die in sweat lodge during spiritual retreat, Yavapai County, 8 Oct 2009

[Blondie in Spokane]

Sweat lodge witness: 'I asked the angels to help me'

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03/03/arizona.sweat.lodge.deaths/index.html?hpt=C2

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

'Sweat lodge' survivor says Ray dismissed plea, didn't check victim"

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03/04/arizona.sweat.lodge.deaths/index.html?hpt=Sbin

 

[fran]

Trial in Arizona sweat lodge death case resumes

<<<<<<<<<<<<<article at link>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/regio...ial-in-arizona-sweat-lodge-death-case-resumes

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03/08/arizona.sweat.lodge.trial/index.html?hpt=T2

"Volunteer recalls chaotic scene at sweat lodge". This sounds absolutely horrific.

 

[costalpilot]

Truc Do is a machine gun litigator. She rapid fire questions at yesterdays witness and used what seemed to me linguistic slight of hand to trip up the witness, and not in a productive way. If I'm the opposing atty. I object and interupt her x big time. Now she's trying to bs the judge. Amazing.

 

[logbump]

I agree, Pilot. I did enjoy watching her in Spector trial.

 

[LyndyLoo]

Did I just hear this witness say "You never go against James"....??? It sure sounds like this man demanded total compliance....Isnt she a witness for the defense?...

Sorry, I have missed alot of this trial..so have no clue how its going for either side..

 

[costalpilot]

Good re direct where Haley points out how a woman agreeiing to have her head shaved changes a persons perspective. I found Haley an effective witness for the prosecution and I reacted negatively to TD's style. If I were a juror I would be Leary of her she seems like she is trying to trick the witness rather than find the truth.

 

[costalpilot]

Haley is a witness for the state. Yes she said you didn't go against James and I believe her. I've done sweat lodges and they are nothing like this one. You were NEVER encouraged to stay if you were uncomfortable. Quite the opposite. This was not a typicAl sweat lodge but James Rays ego gone wild, IMO.

 

[costalpilot]

I agree, Pilot. I did enjoy watching her in Spector trial.

Yeah I'll bet. I would love to see her on the side of truth, trying to discover truth. I didn't get to see that. But when she's trying to confuse and denigrate a witness that is trying to be truthful her style is off putting to me.

 

[costalpilot]

Wow a dr. Who was in the sl ( sweat lodge) on the stand,

 

[costalpilot]

Lakotas I've done SL with don't stress how very hot it's going to be. The focus is not endurance, with THEM.

They tell it's going to be hot but its nothing like JR's focus.

 

[costalpilot]

Nice " nurse". Let's a burned man return to the SL. Unreal. I'd like to hear the nurse explain that. Judge admonishes it's not appropriate to set up a straw man. I don't know what that means but I'm betting it's an admonishment to TD who was playing lawyer tricks on Haley. I'm glad the judge warns against that but it bothers me the state didn't object. It was obvious td was just trying to confuse Haley and impeach her that way.

 

[LyndyLoo]

Haley is a witness for the state. Yes she said you didn't go against James and I believe her. I've done sweat lodges and they are nothing like this one. You were NEVER encouraged to stay if you were uncomfortable. Quite the opposite. This was not a typicAl sweat lodge but James Rays ego gone wild, IMO.

TY so much for clearifying..as I said I am so far behind..workin to catchup :banghead:

Is it just me, when a leader of any group pressures, or demeans anyone who counters "Their Wishes" are..Isnt that alone inculpating alone as to intimidating those involved to ignore their individual fears..and endure whatever pains they are suffering? Also, from Ms Haley, it appears many followers had paid alot of money's upfront to "gain internal peace" or whatever this guy preaches..so felt they had to continue in "The program".

Wonder what kind of waivers these "Followers" had to sign before joining this "Cult Like Group"???

 

[LinasK]

TY so much for clearifying..as I said I am so far behind..workin to catchup :banghead:

Is it just me, when a leader of any group pressures, or demeans anyone who counters "Their Wishes" are..Isnt that alone inculpating alone as to intimidating those involved to ignore their individual fears..and endure whatever pains they are suffering? Also, from Ms Haley, it appears many followers had paid alot of money's upfront to "gain internal peace" or whatever this guy preaches..so felt they had to continue in "The program".

Wonder what kind of waivers these "Followers" had to sign before joining this "Cult Like Group"???

I heard the commentators discussing the other day that they didn't think he had gotten medical waivers from the group. What if they had Diabetes or other medical issues???

 

[LinasK]

Nice " nurse". Let's a burned man return to the SL. Unreal. I'd like to hear the nurse explain that. Judge admonishes it's not appropriate to set up a straw man. I don't know what that means but I'm betting it's an admonishment to TD who was playing lawyer tricks on Haley. I'm glad the judge warns against that but it bothers me the state didn't object. It was obvious td was just trying to confuse Haley and impeach her that way.

I heard that she had nursing training, but was not there in that capacity, i.e. James Ray may have been relying on her, but she wasn't being paid to be on staff on hand for medical emergencies.

 

[LyndyLoo]

I heard that she had nursing training, but was not there in that capacity, i.e. James Ray may have been relying on her, but she wasn't being paid to be on staff on hand for medical emergencies.

Ohhh My then, this women was NOT in Staff capacity:waitasec:..then I would have to assume she too was intimidated to do James Ray's biddings too.. Themore I hear in this case, the more I have to conclude James is indeed culpable in these deaths...HE should have known the dangers, and had adequate assistance available...Sorry, CPR just isnt enough credentialing to asist anybody who collapses..Yikes!!

 

[LyndyLoo]

WOW..This witness is actually a Doctor...

I cannot believe this women wouldnt question the facilities, and available HC to anyone who had issues with such extremes the "Followers" were being exposed to..Yikes even Spa's who have Sauna's have to have certain things inplace for their customers..:maddening:

What really amazes me is this Leader (use the term loosely) has done these rituals before..Not the first time at the rodeo so to speak..so HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN the dangers...where were his lawyers prior to setingup such extremes and give him liability advise???

 

[costalpilot]

I heard that she had nursing training, but was not there in that capacity, i.e. James Ray may have been relying on her, but she wasn't being paid to be on staff on hand for medical emergencies.

Really? Well, that's instructive, since he said that "the nurse" would take care of the burn victim to the Dr. who expressed concern and was sitting next to him. Also if I got it right, most of the "dreamteam" were not only unpaid but members who had paid in addition to operating as "staff."

The psychologist who was featured on IS wrote the forward to a book about the case, and I thought she nailed Ray, so I am going to get and read the book.


I haven't been paying attention to the case, till it came on In Session, but I'm going to now. The IS Talking heads seemed to feel the state over charged, but since there is a lesser included, maybe thats what they are going for.

I loved it that the judge gave the short admonishment to the lawyers about creating a "straw man" situation, and I hope I read it right that it was aimed at TD, cause I got the feeling that she was playing verbal lawyer tricks on Haley to attack her credibility.

 

[costalpilot]

WOW..This witness is actually a Doctor...

I cannot believe this women wouldnt question the facilities, and available HC to anyone who had issues with such extremes the "Followers" were being exposed to..Yikes even Spa's who have Sauna's have to have certain things inplace for their customers..:maddening:

What really amazes me is this Leader (use the term loosely) has done these rituals before..Not the first time at the rodeo so to speak..so HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN the dangers...where were his lawyers prior to setingup such extremes and give him liability advise???

Yeah she's a gynecologist (sp) from Alaska. It will be interesting to follow her testimony. All I can get is InSession coverage, so I didnt get the afternoon coverage.

I've done sweat lodges b4 and they didnt have medical facilities or supplies that I knew about, but they were REAL sweat lodges. This wasn't. Make no mistake. This guy was doing his own thing, with an entirely different goal and mo than a normal sweat lodge. In a normal sweat lodge, safety IS as important a goal as the process, and I believe that the Native American community has tried to point this out.

yeah, ck out thiis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Arthur_Ray#Native_American_perspective

IMO