GUILTY AZ - Three die in sweat lodge during spiritual retreat, Yavapai County, 8 Oct 2009

  • #141
I'd be very surprised if any of the DT was indicted. They were even paying themselves. I think I heard that there are as mNy as 50 potential witnesses and I figure most of them were at the retreat.
The IS th's were all about the d. Making a good argument that the pupils(I'll call them) were free to leAve at any time and thAt is a point but they are acting like it's an overridding pt.
WhAt do you think?It seems to me the management in any kind of situAtion has a larger responsibility that includes a minimum at least awarness of the dangers inherent in whatever activety they offer, regardless of the participants free will. Those releases they were making such a big deal about didn't prevent Dennis, at least, from suing and settling with J!

So somebody in the legal system must have decided that free will didn't trump responsi ility. I wonder if the awards are public record? No doubt doubt they are contributing to J'S debt problem.

My biggest thing is I dont believe any of these people had FREE WILL in the true sense of the word..They all Trusted James Ray to a fault..and tho things were mentioned on how they would feel etc..None of these followers had any idea why they would feel that way.....When exposing anyone to conditions such as these..Its simple logic, anyone who indulges in such things have to work up to it..slowly so that the body can adapt and adjust..You see there is the Hypothalamus in the brain that is responsible for body temps, and compensates..however extremes makes it impossible to respond appropriately!

Anyway, James Ray seems to have brainwashed these peeps,and all them tho told they could ask questions..yet NONE did, and they allfelt they had to go FULL ON!! IF ya didnt....YOU WERE A FAILURE!!..

IS TH's arenot even grasping that these people actually were fully entrenched in James Ray's world..and felt they could NOT go against JR wishes!! Its men like this that really scare the liven pageebis out of me :maddening:
 
  • #142
Sorry, I didnt catch this lat witnesses name ( Dr. of Dentistry)..she did well, and the cross for me wasnt so impressive..Yes, 2 Waivers were signed..but they arent worth the paper they are printed on when true negligence can be shown...Also, as a Medical person..Conscents are termed Informed Conscents..which mens it HAS TO BE explained to the signer..so when Risks was typed into this form..there was NO ONE there to explain anything:waitasec:

Just thought I would point that wee point out :twocents:
 
  • #143
excellent link~~ TY..however these happen to be issues I am very aware of ( Medical Professional)...I am amazed just how this guy claims no harm no foul attitudes..Yikes...

I am willing to bet there were no thermometers to check temps of people..and no Hydration ability (IV Infusions)..and to boot..Health Issues of individual participants was never even thought about//NOW that alone leads me to believe he is culpable ( He Ruled dont ya know)...

Mr. James Ray best feel lucky I am NOT on that jury..and even tho I havent heard ALL testimonies..I have heard enough to realize this guy was an accident waiting to happen :loser:

Manslaughter is more than a fair charge..and yepper..He is guilty as charged!!
Course JMOO

It's obvious to me James Ray took on something more than he could handle. You just don't cram 55 or so people in a sweat lodge. I doubt he knew anything about the process when it came to medical care of the participants or the hazards of the sweat lodge environment. The bottom line for Ray was this: the more people you can put in the sweat lodge, the more money he could make.

My belief is this lodge was build so tightly, using man-made materials instead of natural fibers, to keep the heat in, that the amount of oxygen needed in an exchange for that many people just began to run out.
Guilty! jmo
 
  • #144
Sorry, I didnt catch this lat witnesses name ( Dr. of Dentistry)..she did well, and the cross for me wasnt so impressive..Yes, 2 Waivers were signed..but they arent worth the paper they are printed on when true negligence can be shown...Also, as a Medical person..Conscents are termed Informed Conscents..which mens it HAS TO BE explained to the signer..so when Risks was typed into this form..there was NO ONE there to explain anything:waitasec:

Just thought I would point that wee point out :twocents:

good pt. In the first place those forms don't mean anything as evidenced by the fact that jr has already settled a civil suit brought by pupil Dennis for one and probably others. Dream team member Haley, who passed the forms out didn't even read them, as she testified.
 
  • #145
LL.... You've got it right. I can't figure out why these th's don't get it. I sort of understand they may have overcharged him, but surely he's guilty as sin of the manslaughter charge. IS had a defense lawyer saying the sweat lodge was like every other activety, such as Ice hockey, but here's the thing---Ray didn't know what he was doing. He was negligent. Sweatodges are Inherently dangerous due to the extreme conditions, so they MUST be approached with respect and caution . No sweat lodge done correctly IS treated as an endurance test. NONE.

I don't think it should take an Einstein to demonstrate that people in that kind of situation aren't relying on their independent judgement the way they normally.

IS had a defense atty on and he was making the pt that JR only needs one juror. Well, maybe so but the LEGAL dream team won't be back if he's re charged and if I was an Az. Citizen I would definitely want him re charged if need be.

Hopefully they'll get him the first time around though.
 
  • #146
It's obvious to me James Ray took on something more than he could handle. You just don't cram 55 or so people in a sweat lodge. I doubt he knew anything about the process when it came to medical care of the participants or the hazards of the sweat lodge environment. The bottom line for Ray was this: the more people you can put in the sweat lodge, the more money he could make. I totally agree!

My belief is this lodge was build so tightly, using man-made materials instead of natural fibers, to keep the heat in, that the amount of oxygen needed in an exchange for that many people just began to run out.
Guilty! jmo
Oh I know, just by looking at pictures of it that InSession showed, you could see how easily it would get hot with all those plastic tarps tightly wrapped...
 
  • #147
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03/11/arizona.sweat.lodge.trial/index.html?hpt=Sbin


Bunn, however, testified Friday that over the course of the five-day retreat Ray instilled a directive among the participants: "Play full on."

"You learn through the course of the week that you don't question Mr. Ray on anything," Bunn testified. "You know what the rules are -- things are not optional.

"As you go through the week you learn that there's consequences or reprimand for you to be called out ... if you question Mr. Ray or don't play full on."
 
  • #148
What scares me is how many mind numbed robots are out there!!
 
  • #149
mind numbed: yes

robots: no

they Were intelligent, bright people who died because they believed in a charlatan with a runAway ego.


IMO
 
  • #150
As it turns out, very bright, successfull people are not immune to large errors in judgement. Bernie Madoff comes to mind. No doubt, Many more examples exist. I personally don't see the "brainwashing" and "cult" arguments the state is trotting out, but I don't really know what their basis is for those theories either.

But "brainwashing" in the true sense of the concept to me includes replacing most if not all of ones beliefs with new beliefs authored by an outside entity. That's just my idea of it. But in that sense, a truly brainwashed person would do things under the new, outside implanted belief system that they would not have done formerly. For instance, Germans in 1939 would shoot and torture women and children which they would not have done in 1926 or, even, in 1918. Jim jones followers would murder others and kill themselves and their children at the End but not at the beggining.




That's cultism and brainwashing to me.

But submitting onesself to the rigors and demands of a false prophet like James Ray, and ending up dead or near dead as a result falls far short of that. The man was considered to have insights that were valuable to folks seeking to better themselves in a time when traditional sources of moral authority and guidance are widely discredited and distrusted: the church and state.

They placed their faith in a charlatan who possessed great persuasive powers, but who sadly lacked compassion and concern for others. By the end of their ordeal they did in fact enter into a dangerous personal situation and undoubtedly pushed their personal boundaries beyond what was prudent but they did so as a result of mental and physical exhaustion more than re programming and true brainwashing.

Thousands of folks go into sweat lodges monthly, I
IMO and they emerge safely in no small part because their mentors prepare the
m correctly because they understand the purpose of the experience and more importantly because those leaders and mentors care about people.

These unfortunates ran into a wolf in sheeps clotjhing, to their great detriment. But they aren't idiots, fools or robots. They would't have killed their children or Jews or anybody else at James rays bidding. But they would have stayed in a dangerous situation because they believed a evil man they had misidentified as a virtuous leader. So when he told them they might feel like they were dying but really were not, they substituted a flawed judgement for their own.

He should pay. They already have, even the lucky survivors. The attractive and exceedingly bright orthodontist who testified friday hung her head in humiliation at the most emotional ments of her testimony. My heart went out to her.
 
  • #151
Ok so I understand the legal dream team is going to blame rodents or pesticides or evils in the wood that fired thr rocks ( maybe they should consider aliens from alpha centari).

But in the wildest chance that one of these culprits was making people sick, even IF, Ray was in charge, people were getting sick, people were becoming unhinged, falling into the fire hot rocks, and Ray just telling people they could keep it up. A woman had reporetdy stopped breathing, Ray said " shut the door. We'll take care of that at the end of the round,"


So what does it matter whether it was aliens or bad dirt, when people started getting sick it would have been the responsibility of Ray to assure their safety.
 
  • #152
Im watching on delay and a female defense attty just said what I said above. She. Also said the releases aren't worth the paper they are written on do to the extreme nature of what happened. So the LDT (legal dream team) is making a big deal about the releases just to sway the jurors, not because they mean anything.

She also pointed out that having free will to walk out isn't worth anything if your passed out.
 
  • #153
Not too many objections when this witness is being examined. I really hope to see her cross. She's smart and adept and they (LDT)had better handle her with kid gloves.
 
  • #154
Wow. Friend of James shore:

James shore truly believed it was a death trap and I can't believe James Ray just stood there and didn't help in any way. I truly believe it was murder."
 
  • #155
Omg Beth thinks James Ray thought people in the act of dying was just them experiencing growth? I like Beth but she's bending over backwards to potray JR as an innocent.

I mean they were getting CPR and Beth thinks Ray didn't get it that they were in trouble?

Now Beth is making a big deal of the waiver. She gives the defenses argument that the waiver informed them of the dangers and that they were put on notice right after she admits they weren't read in the first place.
 
  • #156
So sunny says what matters in understanding Rays inaction when people were unconscious IS what he was thinking: if he was thinking they were merely experiencing an altered state, his doing nothing to help them makes sense, cause he didn't think they were in danger.

I say, if a person is not breathing and receiving CPR and if there are several people in the sAme state, it's ridiculous to suggest Anyone could misinterpret that.

Struggling for lifes breath is a very apparent thing and it's not something a normal person mistakes for anything else. I was a medic in the armed forces. I saw people die. There's no misunderstanding.
 
  • #157
SA asks: did Kirby "play full on"....objection....sustained.

the judge didn't say why the SA could not use JR's own words (I'm guessing its too true---uh, prejudicial).

But Dr Dunn then responded that "Kirby went all out,"

later.."As you go thru the week you learn not to question mister Ray."
 
  • #158
wow DA starts by making the pt. that Dr Beverly Bond was upset by the tragedy....wow...the un-said accusation: your mad at JR.

2nd pt...the 6 hour testimony you've given here in court is MUCH more detailed than the two interviews you gave to the detectives...this after establishing that she read things about the case online....the un-said accusation....you've embellished your testimony here in court with things you read online. (what a shock that six hours of questioning in court elicits more info than a detectives interview...wow, just imagine).
 
  • #159
3rd pt. Waivers. she's already said she didn't read them, like the other participants who have testified.

da: pts out waiver, correct? correct.

and that document you had some 3 months to read,,now the DA goes into the doc. reads it,

defense atty pts out that she uses them in her work and expects that her patients read and sign her waivers...yes she says.

more waiver regurgitation...

and more.........................

da reads the doc again...........

I wish she would just say, I didn't think a release apply's to criminal activity.
 
  • #160
wow, Dr Dunn hiked the grand canyon and she knew you could die doing that. good pt. by the defense atty. (sarcasm)


"just like the hike into the canyon you made the free choice to go to the spiritual warrior" yes.

she did the breathing exercise...free will...right? yes.

well your educated...,you made the decision to do yoga? It wasn't an option she says.

d atty stresses that she was exercising her free choice in participating in the exercises.

now he is talking about other self help courses in general. now hes trying to say other entities use the samuri game and that she knew that. she just says JR told her that.

defense atty is just trying to make the whole thing sound innocuous.

(xecpt that three people died. i note.)

back to the grand canyon and heat stroke and classic signs of dehydration. does she know an elevated body temp is a sign of heat stroke? yes.

free will into the canyon, right?

if somebody in her party had got heat stroke in the canyon, you would have helped them, right? Correct.

(man I dont get that? why would he emphasis her state of mind in an unstressed condition vs the stressed scene in the lodge?).

wow shes good. datty blabs on and on, making little or no sense to the pt. and she gives a chilling: "thats correct",. I mean chilling.


datty says...you decided to cut your hair on the 4th day, correct? Correct ,she whispers.
"So that would mean you decided not to cut your hair before that, correct."

and her response is a chilling , "Correct"...which sounded to me like

"Are you fffin kidding me."
 

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