GUILTY AZ - Three die in sweat lodge during spiritual retreat, Yavapai County, 8 Oct 2009

  • #321
no ziggie, not in a million years.

debbie mercer, today, chews up and spits out tom kelly. if I'm JUROR i feel like getting up and punching tom kelly in the face, just to let him know what I think of his treatment of this unassuming, intelligent lady.

james ray deserves this legal team. I'm sure they are going to enjoy spending his misbegotten money.

Right costal, you've got to like Debbie's common sense approach. And, I agree she held her own. And gave enough discouraged looks to make the jury feel sorry for her having to be questioned by the defense.

However, I am not as sure as I was when this trial started that Ray will be found guilty.

He's a bum without an ounce of care for the people he brought into his seminars. And, he didn't know the first thing about the purpose or the proper use of a sweat lodge. To him it was just another gimmick. A deadly one at that.
jmo
 
  • #322
Right costal, you've got to like Debbie's common sense approach. And, I agree she held her own. And gave enough discouraged looks to make the jury feel sorry for her having to be questioned by the defense.

However, I am not as sure as I was when this trial started that Ray will be found guilty.

He's a bum without an ounce of care for the people he brought into his seminars. And, he didn't know the first thing about the purpose or the proper use of a sweat lodge. To him it was just another gimmick. A deadly one at that.
jmo

funny how ones opinion might wax and wane in a trial, or maybe totally understandable, given whatever new info one learns. as for me, the more I hear the more I think he is going to be found guilty. course I didn't like him from the get go.
and his legal team is just making it worse, imo.

I wouldn't trust them in anything, at this point.
 
  • #323
its interesting how ones opinions impact ones judgement.

IS talking heads started out their coverage analysis pretty much agreed that Ray was overcharged at best and completely innocent at worst. as witnesses brought info, the TH's showed some flexibility, as they reflected consideration of the new evidence.

Course, with the mistrial motion, and its denial, they have returned to their "we love these high profile defense atty's and their client" position. Course, I'm exaggerating a bit.

I have not liked either James Ray or his atty's from the get go. And as this case has progressed, that judgement has only grown.

So, yesterday, Truc Do crosses Michael Hamilton, who owned the Angel Valley retreat. I watched on cnn.com/live and interacted with the twitter #jamesray participants, who follow the trial closely.

They mostly don't like the DT (as they call the defense team). So, as Truc Do proceeded, their was much uncomplimentary comment about it.

As as example, Do spent at least 45 minutes sparing with Hamilton as to when pictures of rat poison were made, why and so on. By the time she was finished with that cross, no one who had followed it had the slightest idea what her point was or why it might have been important, although I will concede that she did get Hamilton to say that the picture should be meaningless to the jury---which sounds good because hamilton was offering that the picture was a true representation of how the rat poison was presented to the rats, and the DT wants you to believe the rat poison was somehow spread out on the tarps so much so that the heat in the lodge sucked the rat poison out of the tarps into the air and poisoned the people.

However, having said all that, the 45 mins was devoted to when the pics were taken, despite the elicited opinion that it shouldn't be useful to the jury. Afterwards, when Truc mercifully ended her machine gun cross, the prosecutor, in two minutes, clearly established by way of dates on the photos when they were taken.

Heres the pt. I get it that a DA isn't after the truth, but seeks to obscure the facts to create doubt, so that their client goes free. I got it.

But In Session talking heads looked at Truc Doe's obscuration and lawyer tricks, which served strictly to avoid the truth, as good stuff, excellent litigating, and very well done.

while onlookers, who are cynical to begin with, see it as sleazzy, immoral, and, most importantly, as not helpful to their client.

Because its all seen as lawyer tricks. The twitter folks made many many jokes about how ineffective and even harmful the DT'c cross was, while the IS TH's thought it was great.

strange huh?
 
  • #324
Watching today's proceedings with the owner of Angel Valley on the stand, I know he has to try and save his standings in this case. He has to make it appear his retreat was safe and concerned about the people who attended the facility.
Especially if there are law suits filed against him and his wife as owners.

But, his testimony has made me believe that James Ray had absolutely no idea of what he was doing when it came to a sweat lodge. I don't think Ray even cared if anyone was harmed and certainly never, through his own ignorance, expected the critical outcome of his sweat lodge exercise.

I really feel for all the participants who put their large amount of money and trust into James Ray and his dog and pony show. Even those who did not die or were taken to the hospital. They were all there to experience this. To stand by and panic while people died. To feel the sense of helplessness or to help and only find they could not save the people damaged or killed by Ray's sweat lodge.

I'm on the fence as to whether the jury will convict him. But, I am really mad today that Ray was free to carry out this entire week long program where the theme seemed to be surrounded by the idea of death in each of the different exercises Ray conducted.

My only solace now is that no matter the verdict, James Ray will never again be able to continue with his self-help seminars that put people in danger. Unless of course, he changes his name, moves to another country and pulls this phony business there. And the way I see it, he would be the kind of person to do just that!
jmo
 
  • #325
yeah...this wasn't Ray's first rodeo. he's been pushing the death barrier for quite a while. i'm not sure hes gonna get convicted either, but if I had to put money on it, I'd bet he's gonna get the lesser included for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if they got him for the whole charge either.

the more you hear, the worse he looks. at the very least, his reputation is gone and his lawyers are gonna end up with all his money.

which is good, except I don't like them any better than I do him. but they haven't killed anyone.
 
  • #326
I never went into looking at this trial with a like or dislike of anyone. I just looked at the facts; people did leave - so whether they were under his control or not is very subjective and under the law it's whether a reasonable person would have just got up and walked out. Now, if that person was overcome by a condition in which their oxygen level was depleted and they weren't thinking clearly, then we have a situation that may have been a cause, but not a cause perpetrated by Ray.

Under the law he does not have to be an expert in the design and implementation of the sweat lodge - those who own it and put it up and have control over it are liable for it's defective design. There could be a serious problem with causation - no matter how sleazy you think he is or his lawyers, I don't want a person's liberty taken away if they were not the ultimate cause of another's death - if there was another factor, then he should be acquitted. There is still an avenue for the loved ones in a wrongful death civil action but as far as criminal charges; we have to err on the conservative side of reason...reasonable doubt.

Of course I have not been able to view the hearings lately, I'm sure some attorneys are off putting and you may not like the defendant, but our system is about justice and it wouldn't be right to let the state steam roll over a defendant and not disclose exculpatory evidence just because we don't like the dude.
 
  • #327
That's a great post, Zig.

I don't hear arguments that convince me Ray is guilty. What I hear is people not liking him, not liking what he does, not liking how they perceive his attitude, not liking his defense.

The media determines our opinions in such a case. He's been vilified beyond the realistic. I am so glad that's not what our system is based on. It is the antithesis of what our justice system represents in America.

For me, it comes down to this: did James Ray have any idea whatsoever that his activities could lead to people's deaths? Of course he didn't. All those people there, and no one else did either. Even when the danger started to become evident, most people didn't believe others could be dying.

As for the question as to why people would remain in the sweat lodge... it's not because they thought Ray was God. It's not because they feared him, or they were brainwashed. They had paid 10k to be there, dammit, this sweat lodge was the big event, and by god there was no way they were going to walk out without getting their money's worth.

They didn't think anyone could die that way: They believed their physical state was part of what they were seeking. If they were afraid of leaving, it was only because they didn't want to feel like or be perceived as a quitter or as having "foolishly" missed out on this great thing everyone else completed and was raving about.

I think it's hard to shake off the hindsight that colors our attempts to imagine the scenario. Try to get into the mindset of a bunch of new-agey people with plenty of disposable income, who have the privileged class's sense of specialness and invincibility, in what is virtually the Mecca of such a lifestyle, Sedona, and with a leading guru running the show. It becomes a little easier to see how these people wouldn't want to let go of the illusion.
 
  • #328
Well, CNN has quit streaming JR trial, and today IS announced they were shutting down the Board for good. Whew. Hopefully there will be some help here with links. What a day.
 
  • #329
  • #330
Arguments were presented today for a motion for acquittal filed by the defense.

Motion for acquittal denied by Judge Darrow. The defense proceeds with it's case.

CNN Live is broadcasting this afternoon. We must be at the last 1-2 weeks for this case.

Judge Darrow in denying the motion for acquittal stated: "Defendant had a legal duty to the deceased."
 
  • #331
  • #332
......I just looked at the facts; people did leave - so whether they were under his control or not is very subjective and under the law it's whether a reasonable person would have just got up and walked out. Now, if that person was overcome by a condition in which their oxygen level was depleted and they weren't thinking clearly, then we have a situation that may have been a cause, but not a cause perpetrated by Ray.

i am going to respond to your pts individually. i disagree completely about this bolded statement. ray, who is the unmistakable leader told the participants to disregard their reactions to the heat. In fact he told them they would feel like they were going to die, but that they were not. and they should just ignore their body and "go full out."

when Liz Neuman was laying there on the floor, passed out and dying, and JAR was told that she was unresponsive, he told everyone to ignore her condition, "that she knew what she was doing."

what she was doing was dying and when some participants attempted to get her help James Ray told them she knew what she was doing and to leave her alone.

rays only defense medical expert was asked by the jury if a person passed out in that situation was in danger of heat stroke, and besides the fact he was being paid by Ray, he said "YES."

but you really don't need to be a doctor to know that.

what you need to do to ignore that is to have been told by a group leader that he knows better than all of you, and that your concerns are not valid, that he knows best.


and thats what happened.
 
  • #333
But perhaps they didn't die from heat stroke is my point; perhaps the design flaw caused them to be deprived of oxygen in that one particular spot in the tent or "lodge". Perhaps these growth experiences or whatever have been performed time after time without these kinds of consequences and Ray had no idea that these certain individuals were in that kind of danger. If so, he is still not the causation of the deaths whether he said stay or not because he would have been unaware of the danger. In a civil suit he may be partially liable but we're talking criminal trial here and restriction of liberty so I think it's VERY important to delve into the design flaw possibility and give Ray a break if it exists.
 
  • #334
i am going to respond to your pts individually. i disagree completely about this bolded statement. ray, who is the unmistakable leader told the participants to disregard their reactions to the heat. In fact he told them they would feel like they were going to die, but that they were not. and they should just ignore their body and "go full out."

when Liz Neuman was laying there on the floor, passed out and dying, and JAR was told that she was unresponsive, he told everyone to ignore her condition, "that she knew what she was doing."

what she was doing was dying and when some participants attempted to get her help James Ray told them she knew what she was doing and to leave her alone.

rays only defense medical expert was asked by the jury if a person passed out in that situation was in danger of heat stroke, and besides the fact he was being paid by Ray, he said "YES."

but you really don't need to be a doctor to know that.

what you need to do to ignore that is to have been told by a group leader that he knows better than all of you, and that your concerns are not valid, that he knows best.


and thats what happened.



What if he told them to stuff their mouths full of dirt if they thought they might vomit and then they died of aspirating the resultant gunk?

What if he told them that covering the struggling persons with heavy blankets would help them? Or restricting their water intake?

What if people followed those instructions?

Does the extent of his control over people and the nature of his instructions reach the level of a cult leader? Jim Jones' people lived with him for years; they were vulnerable to begin with; they were removed from their environment and from outside support. James Ray's customers were in Sedona for a week on a really cool vacation.

To me, there's a difference.
 
  • #335
he didnt tell them to stuff dirt in their mouths. he told them he knew better than they did how their bodies would react to extreme heat and that they should not pay attention to their bodies. that he knew better than they did. to trust him.


and when questioned about it, when people got sick and started to die, he told them to ignore the dying people, that the dying people knew what they were doing.

but they did not. they were dying.




What if he told them to stuff their mouths full of dirt if they thought they might vomit and then they died of aspirating the resultant gunk?

What if he told them that covering the struggling persons with heavy blankets would help them? Or restricting their water intake?

What if people followed those instructions?

Does the extent of his control over people and the nature of his instructions reach the level of a cult leader? Jim Jones' people lived with him for years; they were vulnerable to begin with; they were removed from their environment and from outside support. James Ray's customers were in Sedona for a week on a really cool vacation.

To me, there's a difference.
 
  • #336
he didnt tell them to stuff dirt in their mouths. he told them he knew better than they did how their bodies would react to extreme heat and that they should not pay attention to their bodies. that he knew better than they did. to trust him.


and when questioned about it, when people got sick and started to die, he told them to ignore the dying people, that the dying people knew what they were doing.

but they did not. they were dying.

Tony Robbins told my group to walk across, strike that - he encouraged us to walk across 12 feet of red hot coals in our bare feet - he gave us a brief training and it was very clear that NOBODY had to do it - it was purely voluntary. Some people opted out. Some walked and got burns. I walked and everything was totally fine. People have to take some personal responsibility regardless of what some dude tells them.

And as I said earlier, he told them of the experiences of those who had gone before without any problems - he did not tell them this in anticipation of a design flaw that would suffocate people in a certain area. Sheesh.

Tapu and I just don't get people allowing someone else to dictate how they should feel I guess and if I did, and it turned out bad, MY BAD.
 
  • #337
  • #338
  • #339
verdict is in, will post when its announced
 
  • #340

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