AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

[liljim]

remember, we arent in a court of law here, i think everyone (even the people who have voiced strong opinions already) understands that things may come out in the future to radically change those opinions.

everyone is just commenting on the facts as we know them so far.

 

[Shelby77]

I'm surprised I haven't heard more posters comment on it, but the big red flag for me was the fact that an 8 y/o boy was left unsupervised after school. Besides which, from what it seems (the grandmothers comments) there was free access to guns. I don't care HOW much you trust your 8 y/o, that's just a bad combination.
For any locals out there, could you tell me is this also a normal way of life? Where I come from you DON'T leave a child of that age alone, EVER. Not even to run up to the convenience store. That is most certainly against the law, I believe it would be considered child neglect here, maybe not AZ though.

This boy has committed a horrendous crime and should not just walk away. I DO believe he has to hold responsibility for his actions. BUT I do also believe that parents are responsible for their young children. Had it not been his father who had been shot, and he was left home alone after school and went and shot up a neighbor, I WOULD most def. hold the father responsible. If not for the access to the gun but the general lack of supervision that would make such an action even possible. If your child was shot after school by his 8 y/o neighbor left home alone in a house w/ guns, wouldn't you be upset w/ the parents also? Maybe is just me, and I'm NOT trying to blame the victim, but at the same time as he is the father I think he bears somewhat responsiblity. Had CR been even 14 or so I would not feel as strongly. But 8? We're still accountable for our child actions at that tender age IMO.

As for the trust issue, trusting your kids is a good thing, but so blindly? I have given my teenage son countless talks on drugs and the dangers etc. I trust him as much as a parent can when it comes to those things lol. But would I leave them lying around the house trusting he realized and comprehended my lessons on dangers, risks not to partake in them? I realize drugs illegal, guns not. But the risk factor is the same for me. Why leave them w/ access to something so dangerous? It's the parents job to forsee dangers and remove those risks is it not?

I mean no offense to the hunters out there who leave theirs guns out for personal security reasons. But I ask you if you leave your 8 y/o home alone w/ access to said weapons. Curious to hear responses, opinions to this. Maybe it is normal in some parts to leave young children unsuperivsed for hours, I can't imagine it is, but maybe....

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It was not required by AZ law to lock up a gun. This is not unheard of. Many people in rural AZ do exactly as the dad did. The gun used was the boy's own gun.

I don't think the dad was a gun wielding lunatic, since no one has remotely suggested this.

And we don't even know how he gained access to the gun either. I would gather to guess, the gun was unloaded before it was brought into the home each time to be put away and when he took it he loaded and reloaded it.

There are a lot of states who have the same law as AZ.

I think this dad was an avid sportsman. I believe they said he was even buried in his hunting camouflage cap. The cap may have been necessary though because of his wounds.

We attended a funeral for a friend of my husband's back in June. The entire theme, including the casket which had an embroidered deer in the lining, sprays and flower arrangements were done in a wild life theme. He was known as an avid fisherman and hunter.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm surprised I haven't heard more posters comment on it, but the big red flag for me was the fact that an 8 y/o boy was left unsupervised after school. Besides which, from what it seems (the grandmothers comments) there was free access to guns. I don't care HOW much you trust your 8 y/o, that's just a bad combination.
For any locals out there, could you tell me is this also a normal way of life? Where I come from you DON'T leave a child of that age alone, EVER. Not even to run up to the convenience store. That is most certainly against the law, I believe it would be considered child neglect here, maybe not AZ though.

This boy has committed a horrendous crime and should not just walk away. I DO believe he has to hold responsibility for his actions. BUT I do also believe that parents are responsible for their young children. Had it not been his father who had been shot, and he was left home alone after school and went and shot up a neighbor, I WOULD most def. hold the father responsible. If not for the access to the gun but the general lack of supervision that would make such an action even possible. If your child was shot after school by his 8 y/o neighbor left home alone in a house w/ guns, wouldn't you be upset w/ the parents also? Maybe is just me, and I'm NOT trying to blame the victim, but at the same time as he is the father I think he bears somewhat responsibility. Had CR been even 14 or so I would not feel as strongly. But 8? We're still accountable for our child actions at that tender age IMO.

As for the trust issue, trusting your kids is a good thing, but so blindly? I have given my teenage son countless talks on drugs and the dangers etc. I trust him as much as a parent can when it comes to those things lol. But would I leave them lying around the house trusting he realized and comprehended my lessons on dangers, risks not to partake in them? I realize drugs illegal, guns not. But the risk factor is the same for me. Why leave them w/ access to something so dangerous? It's the parents job to forsee dangers and remove those risks is it not?

I mean no offense to the hunters out there who leave theirs guns out for personal security reasons. But I ask you if you leave your 8 y/o home alone w/ access to said weapons. Curious to hear responses, opinions to this. Maybe it is normal in some parts to leave young children unsupervised for hours, I can't imagine it is, but maybe....

I know there are many latch key kids in this country but I have not heard where he was left home for hours. I thought he said that the bus dropped him off about 4:00 pm and all of this happened between that time and 5:00 pm?

I don't agree with you Shelby that the father bears some of the responsibility in him being murdered nor more than I would believe it was his fault if he had bought his son a baseball bat and the son used it to end his life. What this boy did was take something meant for an entirely different purpose.

Maybe he did trust his son too much, evidently he did, but he may have really believed the boy would keep his promises to stay away from the hunting weapons that were kept in the master bedroom of the house. If there is fault then it may have been the faith he placed in his son. He certainly wouldn't have guessed in a million years this would happen to him and his friend. We don't even know how he was able to gain access to the guns or the bullets.

I think it depends on where a child may live. I was left alone at that age and knew to keep the doors locked until my parents came in after work. IIRC, they said this neighborhood was a very quiet neighborhood. I am sure the family felt safe there.

imoo

 

[Shelby77]

I agree w/ you OBE in that he had faith in his son, I don't believe for a second he would've allowed the access if he any inkling it wasn't a good idea. I do believe he had his son's best interests at heart and I respect that you feel he (VR) bears no responsibilty.
I don't mean to say it out and out his fault, but I do think he is somewhat culpable as what I perceive as his lack of judgement in leaving an 8 y/o home alone, for even an hour, in a house w/ access to guns...well you get my drift I hope.
And the world has changed much, and parents need to also, though my mother NEVER would have left me home at 8, there were things that were done differently than are done now. So I'm not sure what our parents did w/ us is nearly as applicable as what we do w/ our children now. Did that make sense?
And I know thru all my intensive research in this case I came across multiple things that suggested all guns were kept unlocked in the master bedroom, I'll look for the links later. Tho the point is moot as I already know his father was fully within his rights, whether people disagree or not, he did nothing wrong.
I thought I heard he got home at 3, which would make it 2 hours, but I could be wrong. And that point is also moot as I already answered my own question in regards to that issue. Here is a qoute and link for anyone else who was curious, but apparently he (VR) did NOT do anything wrong, under the law as a parent as far as I can tell

CPS has identified situations (that could cause a substantiated risk of harm to children who are alone) that are taken as reports for investigation. For example: - Children under the age of six; - A child of any age who cannot care for his or herself due to a physical, emotional or mental inability; - Children six to nine years of age, for three hours or longer; or it is unknown when the parent will return.

https://egov.azdes.gov/CMSInternet/main.aspx?menu=154&id=2122&ekmensel=15074e5e_154_158_2122_24

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Killers don't need a gun. You have a case right now in Canada/ Medicine Hat, where a twelve year old girl and her boyfriend killed her parents and young brother with knives.

Anyway let's not blame the victim. Just because this killer is only 8 it doesn't make him innocent. Oh.. right, he was only keeping his dad and Mr. Romans from suffering.

Yes, knives are being used especially by young people.

Britian is one of the toughest country's on gun control. Many of the police still do not carry a firearm.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/Story?id=5366544&page=1

"While Britain has lower rates of gun and knife crime than the United States, more than 20,000 serious knife crimes were committed last year, according to government statistics quoted in the The Sunday Telegraph. The statistics indicate that almost 60 people are stabbed or mugged at knife-point every day."

To me it is not the weapon, it is the mindset of the person who makes it a weapon against another human being.

As you see the figures are high but are not as high as they are in the US.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree w/ you OBE in that he had faith in his son, I don't believe for a second he would've allowed the access if he any inkling it wasn't a good idea. I do believe he had his son's best interests at heart and I respect that you feel he (VR) bears no responsibility.
I don't mean to say it out and out his fault, but I do think he is somewhat culpable as what I perceive as his lack of judgment in leaving an 8 y/o home alone, for even an hour, in a house w/ access to guns...well you get my drift I hope.
And the world has changed much, and parents need to also, though my mother NEVER would have left me home at 8, there were things that were done differently than are done now. So I'm not sure what our parents did w/ us is nearly as applicable as what we do w/ our children now. Did that make sense?
And I know thru all my intensive research in this case I came across multiple things that suggested all guns were kept unlocked in the master bedroom, I'll look for the links later. Tho the point is moot as I already know his father was fully within his rights, whether people disagree or not, he did nothing wrong.
I thought I heard he got home at 3, which would make it 2 hours, but I could be wrong. And that point is also moot as I already answered my own question in regards to that issue. Here is a quote and link for anyone else who was curious, but apparently he (VR) did NOT do anything wrong, under the law as a parent as far as I can tell

CPS has identified situations (that could cause a substantiated risk of harm to children who are alone) that are taken as reports for investigation. For example: - Children under the age of six; - A child of any age who cannot care for his or herself due to a physical, emotional or mental inability; - Children six to nine years of age, for three hours or longer; or it is unknown when the parent will return.

https://egov.azdes.gov/CMSInternet/main.aspx?menu=154&id=2122&ekmensel=15074e5e_154_158_2122_24

I certainly do understand what you are saying, Shelby. I really think the father was very diligent by coming home when he got off everyday. Also, yes, times have changed but sometimes in these quaint rural small towns like this tiny town they have not so much. I don't know when VR built his home but it may have been when the boy was very small so he felt comfortable leaving him there knowing he would be home shortly.

imoo

 

[CyberLaw]

The parents of this 12 year old girl "forbade" her to see a man, what 10 years older then her, she had problems before this "murder" and upon conviction was sentence to 10 years with TREATMENT. Yes, ladies and gents, the girl requires TREATMENT. But if it was in the states, well, she would be "thrown" away, locked away for her life.

I do believe children are a product of their environment and age. As we all know "teens" brains are not fully developed and "act in a manner" that adults do. That is why some countries make provisions for their age, give them treatment, so hopefully one day they can have a life and be a member of society.

But in some societies, children are just thrown away. Locked up, their life is over for a crime that they committed as a child. They do grow up, their brains and thinking process matures.

So, I am not "giving" up on a child. I am not "going" to throw him away for life. Sorry, but when I think of an 8 year old boy, I think of a child in grade 3.

This boy did not "just wake" up one morning and say to himself: I am going to kill today. Now what is for breakfast. Where is my knapsack. Today is reading circle. Recess, can't wait. Oh, yeah, today I am going to kill.

 

[Trino]

I don't mean to say it out and out his fault, but I do think he is somewhat culpable as what I perceive as his lack of judgement in leaving an 8 y/o home alone, for even an hour, in a house w/ access to guns...well you get my drift I hope.
And the world has changed much, and parents need to also, though my mother NEVER would have left me home at 8, there were things that were done differently than are done now. So I'm not sure what our parents did w/ us is nearly as applicable as what we do w/ our children now. Did that make sense?
And I know thru all my intensive research in this case I came across multiple things that suggested all guns were kept unlocked in the master bedroom, I'll look for the links later. Tho the point is moot as I already know his father was fully within his rights, whether people disagree or not, he did nothing wrong.
I thought I heard he got home at 3, which would make it 2 hours, but I could be wrong. And that point is also moot as I already answered my own question in regards to that issue. Here is a qoute and link for anyone else who was curious, but apparently he (VR) did NOT do anything wrong, under the law as a parent as far as I can tell

https://egov.azdes.gov/CMSInternet/main.aspx?menu=154&id=2122&ekmensel=15074e5e_154_158_2122_24

While many may think otherwise, according to AZ CPS and the law the father did nothing wrong with either leaving the boy home alone or leaving guns in the house.

It's hard to believe an 8 yr old is capable of killing, but it seems the boy did plan it.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

The parents of this 12 year old girl "forbade" her to see a man, what 10 years older then her, she had problems before this "murder" and upon conviction was sentence to 10 years with TREATMENT. Yes, ladies and gents, the girl requires TREATMENT. But if it was in the states, well, she would be "thrown" away, locked away for her life.

I do believe children are a product of their environment and age. As we all know "teens" brains are not fully developed and "act in a manner" that adults do. That is why some countries make provisions for their age, give them treatment, so hopefully one day they can have a life and be a member of society.

But in some societies, children are just thrown away. Locked up, their life is over for a crime that they committed as a child. They do grow up, their brains and thinking process matures.

So, I am not "giving" up on a child. I am not "going" to throw him away for life. Sorry, but when I think of an 8 year old boy, I think of a child in grade 3.

This boy did not "just wake" up one morning and say to himself: I am going to kill today. Now what is for breakfast. Where is my knapsack. Today is reading circle. Recess, can't wait. Oh, yeah, today I am going to kill.

CyberLaw, I must tell you, you are making my posting *so* much easier!!! I agree with everything you have posted here. I hope you do not mind that I "ride the breeze" of your posts. Two thumbs up, dear poster!!! I'm with your opinion all the way....

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The parents of this 12 year old girl "forbade" her to see a man, what 10 years older then her, she had problems before this "murder" and upon conviction was sentence to 10 years with TREATMENT. Yes, ladies and gents, the girl requires TREATMENT. But if it was in the states, well, she would be "thrown" away, locked away for her life.

I do believe children are a product of their environment and age. As we all know "teens" brains are not fully developed and "act in a manner" that adults do. That is why some countries make provisions for their age, give them treatment, so hopefully one day they can have a life and be a member of society.

But in some societies, children are just thrown away. Locked up, their life is over for a crime that they committed as a child. They do grow up, their brains and thinking process matures.

So, I am not "giving" up on a child. I am not "going" to throw him away for life. Sorry, but when I think of an 8 year old boy, I think of a child in grade 3.

This boy did not "just wake" up one morning and say to himself: I am going to kill today. Now what is for breakfast. Where is my knapsack. Today is reading circle. Recess, can't wait. Oh, yeah, today I am going to kill.

Well we really don't know what he woke up deciding he was going to do but it sure looks like this was on his mind. His father when murdered still had all of his work gear on including his hardhat when he walked those last few steps up those stairs. So when did this boy think about it? It seems it happened just when the father had come in the door from work.

I don't know what you mean by this statement though.

"upon conviction was sentence to 10 years with TREATMENT. Yes, ladies and gents, the girl requires TREATMENT."

If this boy is tried in the Juvenile system here ......he also would receive about 10 years or less for the death of Mr. Romans and he would be given mental treatment and rehabilitation.

imoo

 

[OrdinaryLife]

While many may think otherwise, according to AZ CPS and the law the father did nothing wrong with either leaving the boy home alone or leaving guns in the house.

It's hard to believe an 8 yr old is capable of killing, but it seems the boy did plan it.

While AZ CPS and the law seem to agree that leaving an 8 year old home alone is okay, I strongly disagree with that so called "assessment". Does that make it right??? No child at that age should ever be left alone at that age. If a parent cannot be home for when a child of that age returns home from school, then arrangements should be made for after school program or a babysitter. We are talking about a 3 grader here. Not some early teen/middle school student.

 

[Shelby77]

I couldn't agree more Ordinary, in your disagreement over their "assessment". I find it despicable that it is allowable under Arizona law to leave a 6 year old totally unsupervised, as long as it's less than 3 hrs!?! I fully expected there to be stricter guidelines w/ this but apparently not in most states, not to single out AZ.

What I find interesting is that the court found the father, who couldn't even provide adequate supervision (adding he appears to be wonderful and dedicated father in every other aspect of course) more capable than the mother to have custody. That kinda speaks volumes to me about her lack of ability to parent. Unless the court didn't know, mom didn't bring to the attention of the court. Not that it's illegal, but one would think those kind of issues would have a major role in a custody battle.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I couldn't agree more Ordinary, in your disagreement over their "assessment". I find it despicable that it is allowable under Arizona law to leave a 6 year old totally unsupervised, as long as it's less than 3 hrs!?! I fully expected there to be stricter guidelines w/ this but apparently not in most states, not to single out AZ.

What I find interesting is that the court found the father, who couldn't even provide adequate supervision (adding he appears to be wonderful and dedicated father in every other aspect of course) more capable than the mother to have custody. That kinda speaks volumes to me about her lack of ability to parent. Unless the court didn't know, mom didn't bring to the attention of the court. Not that it's illegal, but one would think those kind of issues would have a major role in a custody battle.

I cannot make any judgment towards the biological mother. So little is really known. I will await for the what is released, legally, info conerning this case. I also am curious about the relationship/family dynamics in regards to Father, BioMom, and StepMom. There is much more to this case than anyone of us are aware. I honestly believe there is *so* much more....

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I cannot make any judgment towards the biological mother. So little is really known. I will await for the what is released, legally, info concerning this case. I also am curious about the relationship/family dynamics in regards to Father, BioMom, and StepMom. There is much more to this case than anyone of us are aware. I honestly believe there is *so* much more....

There is always more in every case.

From from what we know now the father has always cared for the boy in his home in AZ. Since his bio mom and his dad divorced 6 years ago, this boy wouldn't remember them ever being married, I wouldn't think.

The boy seems to have an affection with his step mom. He readily called her his "mom" when talking in the interview about that she was going to be late getting home that day. I did notice that the Judge put her on the list in case she wanted to visit the boy. I wonder if he was asking for her?

I am curious why the bio mom decided to move so far away from him about three and a half years ago or if she has a boyfriend/husband now. She lived in AZ at one time after they were divorced.

Maybe we will get those answers eventually or we may not.

imoo

 

[CyberLaw]

So let me get this straight, a child of "tender" years, is expected to make adult decision, make adult choices, act like an adult, all at the age of 8. Take care of himself.

So if someone comes to the door and "cons" or breaks in, let me see who is there to protect the child, oh right the child. If there is a fire, medical emergency, someone knows the "child" is vulnerable and alone, who again is there to act on behalf of the child, oh right, the child.

Who is the adult to take care of the child. Oh right. Silly me. The child. How are those "grade" three reading skills and simple addition and subtraction. I doubt multiplication and division are learned yet.

Then we give him access to guns.......who is the adults here, oh yeah an 8 year old child.

Why don't we just give the kid a smoke and a beer while were at it.......why should "any" adult object.

UNBELIEVABLE........

 

[oceanblueeyes]

So let me get this straight, a child of "tender" years, is expected to make adult decision, make adult choices, act like an adult, all at the age of 8. Take care of himself.

So if someone comes to the door and "cons" or breaks in, let me see who is there to protect the child, oh right the child. If there is a fire, medical emergency, someone knows the "child" is vulnerable and alone, who again is there to act on behalf of the child, oh right, the child.

Who is the adult to take care of the child. Oh right. Silly me. The child. How are those "grade" three reading skills and simple addition and subtraction. I doubt multiplication and division are learned yet.

Then we give him access to guns.......who is the adults here, oh yeah an 8 year old child.

Why don't we just give the kid a smoke and a beer while were at it.......why should "any" adult object.

UNBELIEVABLE........

I have looked and in most states here it seems the age is most often 8 years old.

What is the law in your country?

Many states do not list a specific age but says it should be left up to the individual parent(s) who knows the particular child's abilities.

imoo

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm surprised I haven't heard more posters comment on it, but the big red flag for me was the fact that an 8 y/o boy was left unsupervised after school. Besides which, from what it seems (the grandmothers comments) there was free access to guns. I don't care HOW much you trust your 8 y/o, that's just a bad combination.
For any locals out there, could you tell me is this also a normal way of life? Where I come from you DON'T leave a child of that age alone, EVER. Not even to run up to the convenience store. That is most certainly against the law, I believe it would be considered child neglect here, maybe not AZ though.

This boy has committed a horrendous crime and should not just walk away. I DO believe he has to hold responsibility for his actions. BUT I do also believe that parents are responsible for their young children. Had it not been his father who had been shot, and he was left home alone after school and went and shot up a neighbor, I WOULD most def. hold the father responsible. If not for the access to the gun but the general lack of supervision that would make such an action even possible. If your child was shot after school by his 8 y/o neighbor left home alone in a house w/ guns, wouldn't you be upset w/ the parents also? Maybe is just me, and I'm NOT trying to blame the victim, but at the same time as he is the father I think he bears somewhat responsibility. Had CR been even 14 or so I would not feel as strongly. But 8? We're still accountable for our child actions at that tender age IMO.

As for the trust issue, trusting your kids is a good thing, but so blindly? I have given my teenage son countless talks on drugs and the dangers etc. I trust him as much as a parent can when it comes to those things lol. But would I leave them lying around the house trusting he realized and comprehended my lessons on dangers, risks not to partake in them? I realize drugs illegal, guns not. But the risk factor is the same for me. Why leave them w/ access to something so dangerous? It's the parents job to forsee dangers and remove those risks is it not?

I mean no offense to the hunters out there who leave theirs guns out for personal security reasons. But I ask you if you leave your 8 y/o home alone w/ access to said weapons. Curious to hear responses, opinions to this. Maybe it is normal in some parts to leave young children unsupervised for hours, I can't imagine it is, but maybe....

I really enjoyed your post. When I was 8 yrs old, I was often left home alone for about an hour at a time, WITH loaded guns, I was an extremely trustworthy child, responsible and all around good kid. I never touched the guns, ever when alone. I did know how to use them & often went target shooting with my dad. I was taught to respect them.

My son is now 10, and while I am comfortable leaving him home alone while I run to the convenience store, 20 minutes max.....He's a great kid and pretty trustworthy. ....BUT.....I would NEVER leave him alone with loaded guns within his reach. Matter of fact......I've read about too many horrific stories, and well it's simply not a risk I am willing to take. I don't have any guns in my home.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The parents of this 12 year old girl "forbade" her to see a man, what 10 years older then her, she had problems before this "murder" and upon conviction was sentence to 10 years with TREATMENT. Yes, ladies and gents, the girl requires TREATMENT. But if it was in the states, well, she would be "thrown" away, locked away for her life.

I do believe children are a product of their environment and age. As we all know "teens" brains are not fully developed and "act in a manner" that adults do. That is why some countries make provisions for their age, give them treatment, so hopefully one day they can have a life and be a member of society.

But in some societies, children are just thrown away. Locked up, their life is over for a crime that they committed as a child. They do grow up, their brains and thinking process matures.

So, I am not "giving" up on a child. I am not "going" to throw him away for life. Sorry, but when I think of an 8 year old boy, I think of a child in grade 3.

This boy did not "just wake" up one morning and say to himself: I am going to kill today. Now what is for breakfast. Where is my knapsack. Today is reading circle. Recess, can't wait. Oh, yeah, today I am going to kill.

I can assure you here in the states ALL juvenile murderers tried as such receive intensive therapy and will be released eventually.

 

[Julessleuther]

Ok, so if there was a shot fired at a screen door, and casings outside, why did none of the neighbors here this going on? I can understand to a certain extent the indoor shots, but at a door or outdoor shots? There are so many puzzling things/missing pieces to this...

suz, there have been mixed reports and i dont believe the autopsy reports have been released. i dont think we can be sure exactly how many shots each man was hit with until the autopsy report is public. but it sounds like it was either 6 and 4, or 5 and 5, in that neighborhood.

oh, i suppose if the crime scene evidence comes out that will show it too, however many casings they found minus one for the shot that appears to have missed and gone thru the screen door. and ummm the possibility of other missed shots hehe.

so i guess we will know how many shots fired when the crime scene info is released, and how many times each man was shot only when the autopsy report is.