AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

[MsPooh]

Sounds like this child was "in the zone" so to speak. As in there had to have been a straw that broke the camels back in the way he was treated. He snapped. I really really REALLY hope that this child is getting to speak to a child psychologist that knows what they are doing. Just the fact that he is being charged with murder is enough to ruin the rest of his life. The POSSIBLE factors that led up to it most likely already ruined it.

 

[MissieMt]

I don't know where you get they are going to try him as an adult. They aren't. If tried at all it will be in juvey court.

Are you saying that because someone kills wild game to process and eat instead of having it processed from the slaughter house to the grocery store that they are somehow going to become murderers of human beings?

Do you realize that there are millions of legal game hunters every year in this country that does just that and because they do the population in each animal classification is much healthier because of it. Overpopulation is the worst thing that can happen to them. It causes them to starve for food and become sickly, destroy crops and it drives them out onto the roadways where they are killed and they in turn kill human beings too.

LE said this boy planned to do this. So if that was so, should parents remove all knives from the kitchen or bludgeoning objects like baseball bats just to insure they are not murdered by their own child?

Where are your figures supporting that people who are taught to use guns to hunt have no respect for living things?.......just because people legally hunt and are taught how to use weapons they then will become a murderer of a human being?

Only one person in this case took a gun intended for small game hunting and turned it into a murder weapon against another human being and that is the murderer and certainly not the victims.

imoo

If you read this article it clearly states they are pushing to charge him as an adult:

In a sign of the emotional and legal complexities of the case, police are pushing to have the boy tried as an adult even as they investigate possible abuse, Melnick said. If convicted as a minor, the boy could be sent to juvenile detention until he turns 18

Thats from the Chief of Police
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/08/child.charged.ap/index.html

 

[Linda7NJ]

If you read this article it clearly states they are pushing to charge him as an adult:

That's from the Chief of Police
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/08/child.charged.ap/index.html

For now I am still suspending judgement until I get more info.
Perhaps, as an adult IS warranted in this case.

 

[MsPooh]

So very sad that in this country...an 8 year old can be tried as an adult for murder. Why is it that in these cases it can be viewed as an adult decision and punished accordingly. But as for anything else in this life, why is it that, up until a certain age ...15-16 to drive..18 to use tobacco...21 to drink..16 "age of consent"..and many other age milestones, before we are considered mature enough to handle adult situations? Maybe I am just overthinking this.

 

[believe09]

He may be cunning and not fit for society, but he is 8. I look at one on my lovelies who is around that age-there is no way she would get it-could wrap her arms around the magnitude of ending another persons life.

Life, what we know to be life...beating heart, taking breaths, thinking, eating, LIFE has no resonance with someone of that age. They wonder if their teddy bears get up at night-they are still trying to sort it all out.

jmo

 

[prd2bokie]

So very sad that in this country...an 8 year old can be tried as an adult for murder. Why is it that in these cases it can be viewed as an adult decision and punished accordingly. But as for anything else in this life, why is it that, up until a certain age ...15-16 to drive..18 to use tobacco...21 to drink..16 "age of consent"..and many other age milestones, before we are considered mature enough to handle adult situations? Maybe I am just overthinking this.

No, you're not over thinking. As I was waiting for my child last night to get home, ( before midnight-county curfew ) I sat there thinking about this child who doesn't have enough sense to leave his girlfriends house early enough to stop for gas and be home before curfew, will amazingly be able to vote by next May!!!!!! Sometimes I think the age limits on things should be extended. Kids are not as mature as they use to be. I know that I wasn't very mature at age 25. An 8yr old should not be tried as an adult, but I also think that court records should not be sealed on children. Their actions as children can be a precursor to adult behavior. Not always, but we should be able know about these things.

 

[SuziQ]

Small Arizona community rallies after big crime

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/09/20081109stjohnskillings.html

 

[impatientredhead]

If abuse was happening in the home concerning this boy then CPS would have complaints on it.

None were ever lodged against this father.

imoo

I was abused as a child and there was never a complaint filed against my mother. That is not an indicator of whether abuse was occuring or not. Complaints filed would be third party confirmation, but there absence means nothing.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I was abused as a child and there was never a complaint filed against my mother. That is not an indicator of whether abuse was occurring or not. Complaints filed would be third party confirmation, but there absence means nothing.

And because there are no complaints doesn't mean there was abuse being done either.

It seemed like this father and his family was extremely well liked by all in his community and his church. He even went to the Priest for guidance whether he should teach his son how to go hunting. He seemed like a very concerned father to me.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If you read this article it clearly states they are pushing to charge him as an adult:

Thats from the Chief of Police
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/08/child.charged.ap/index.html

Thanks for the correction, Missie. I had not seen that particular article. Seems like the PC is carrying this case on his sleeve. I can understand that he is upset by the cold cunning nature of this crime. To even imagine what they have uncovered and seen for this tiny community has to be hard for them. Things like this just doesn't happen there this often so I think everyone is just in shock.

However, I don't think the Judge will try him as an adult but he may be tried in juvenile court which really is the best for society imo. At least there he can hopefully received extensive therapy before he is let back out in society in a few years. At least there will be a legal record of what he is capable of doing in case he becomes a repeat offender.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

He may be cunning and not fit for society, but he is 8. I look at one on my lovelies who is around that age-there is no way she would get it-could wrap her arms around the magnitude of ending another persons life.

Life, what we know to be life...beating heart, taking breaths, thinking, eating, LIFE has no resonance with someone of that age. They wonder if their teddy bears get up at night-they are still trying to sort it all out.

jmo

I don't think so. This boy went hunting and I am sure went along when his dad hunted...when he shot and killed the prairie dogs he knew full well they weren't going to get back up.......ever.

imoo

 

[believe09]

I don't think so. This boy went hunting and I am sure went along when his dad hunted...when he shot and killed the prairie dogs he knew full well they weren't going to get back up.......ever.

imoo

OBE, I respect your opinion, but disagree. I have seen plenty of kids who cannot differentiate between fiction and reality-be it a movie, a book or a video game.

And for the record, who takes an 8 year old to slaughter prairie dogs? What is the purpose? Fun? It ain't for food. That kind of killing, imo, just teaches you that you are the one with the power if you have the gun.

I come from hunters, and have owned weapons. I have had a similar conversation with a man who brought his 12 year old to a hunting lodge so he could shoot squirrels. WTH?

O/T some of the best environmentalists I have known have been avid hunters who do not believe in arbitrary killing, and take what they kill to be used. All of it.

 

[MsPooh]

And because there are no complaints doesn't mean there was abuse being done either.

It seemed like this father and his family was extremely well liked by all in his community and his church. He even went to the Priest for guidance whether he should teach his son how to go hunting. He seemed like a very concerned father to me.

imoo

Looks can be decieving, as hard as it is to say this..well for starters..they said just about the same thing about Dennis Raider..but anyway..MAYBE Dad was up for father of the year, maybe he was the greatest Dad ever..or at least he may have been a hard working loving Daddy..The fact remains that something SOMETHING had to have happened to trigger this, if the boy was 15 maybe I wouldn't really be questioning it...as a matter of fact I would probably think "well it's happened again"..but this baby is 8 years old! I do not know if you have children or not, I have 2 and the psychology just isn't there for this. I can see this child "acting out" before it came down to this, but noone seems to have seen it. And if he did exibit the signs or try to reach out to anyone in anyway..even on a subconscious level..he was failed.

Peace
+

 

[mysteriew]

There has been some discussion of the appropriateness of taking an eight year old hunting. There are some differences in rural and city here.

In rural areas a child might raise a steer, a goat, a rabbit, a lamb or a chicken knowing that it is going to market for slaughter. They might learn to hunt for rabbits and squirrels, because they are good eating. They may fish because they are good eating. Later they might learn to deer hunt. Also good eating. They might use it to hunt to kill nuciance/destructive animals, animals that could endanger their crops. And because both make a break for their routine. I suspect that many people hunt just because it gives them the excuse to "commune" with nature without being called a sissy. A responsible experienced parent who teaches the child to hunt also teaches them respect for the gun, and how to safely handle it. Learning to hunt is sometimes seen as a right of passage for male kids. And hate to tell you all, but it isn't uncommon (though not as common as it used to be.) When I was a kid I didn't hunt, but I did help my Dad to gut and clean squirrels and rabbits after his hunting trip (I was female and he didn't think girls should do that.) I have seen a deer prepared.

It is sometimes hard for people who didn't grow up that way to understand. When we go to the store and pick up a piece of steak, pork chop or a chicken breast, we don't think of the fact that these are animals that sometimes look cute. But calves, pigs and chickens go through a cute stage too. But in a rural area, they don't think of them as cute either. They think of them as profit, as good eating, or others as a serious pest.

It doesn't make them more prone to violence. Probably because they think of guns and fishing rods as a tool, like the shovels and pitchforks they use. Because they do grow up with guns, they also seem to have more respect for them. They don't seem to see them as a power trip, or way to enforce. They just don't have the same mystic. As a result, you will find that most hunters who grew up with guns, just aren't as violence prone.

 

[SoobsinMI]

I have had a similar conversation with a man who brought his 12 year old to a hunting lodge so he could shoot squirrels. WTH?

O/T some of the best environmentalists I have known have been avid hunters who do not believe in arbitrary killing, and take what they kill to be used. All of it.

Not to bemoan the fact, but some people, do indeed, eat squirrel. My husband's grandmother used to make it for dinner. Gross, IMO, but she did in fact serve squirrel for dinner, on occasion.

 

[believe09]

Not to bemoan the fact, but some people, do indeed, eat squirrel. My husband's grandmother used to make it for dinner. Gross, IMO, but she did in fact serve squirrel for dinner, on occasion.

O/T, when I was introduced to my soon to be husband's depression era grandparents I had to PICK the squirrel I would be dining on from the freezer where his little headless body was...To this very day, I think it was a dare, but they learned to catch squirrels in NYC when they were young during the depression to supplement their meals. So he continued to do so in his garden in the burbs...true story.

Back on topic-don't know many people who eat prairie dog, but I get your point.

 

[Salem]

mysteriew - I agree with what you said - except I would add that most responsible parents teach their children not only respect for the gun, but also respect for the animal. In my family - you don't kill unless you intend to use the prey for food. Absolutely no other reason is allowed. No target practice on squirrels, birds or prairie dogs.

Something had to be happening for this 8 year old to premeditate the murder of his father and his father's friend. Something. I don't know what, but something.

Salem

 

[oceanblueeyes]

OBE, I respect your opinion, but disagree. I have seen plenty of kids who cannot differentiate between fiction and reality-be it a movie, a book or a video game.

And for the record, who takes an 8 year old to slaughter prairie dogs? What is the purpose? Fun? It ain't for food. That kind of killing, imo, just teaches you that you are the one with the power if you have the gun.

I come from hunters, and have owned weapons. I have had a similar conversation with a man who brought his 12 year old to a hunting lodge so he could shoot squirrels. WTH?

O/T some of the best environmentalists I have known have been avid hunters who do not believe in arbitrary killing, and take what they kill to be used. All of it.

Thank you for your kind words. I respect yours as well and all other posters that post on this site.

I really don't know who takes their child to shoot prairie dogs. I do not live in Arizona where it is legal. We dont have prairie dogs down here. I don't know if prairie dogs are killed to be eaten. They do look a lot like a squirrel and people do eat squirrel even though we personally only eat dove/quail and large game, like deer.

I do know that some states will legalize the shooting of what they call varmints in their individual areas. Here we have opossums, armadillos, moles, coyotes and some of them are nuisances that either are prone to carry rabies and attack pets/cattle or they destroy root systems in entire lawns.

I can't judge others who may take their child hunting to shoot. I do not see the correlation between going hunting and becoming a murderer of a human being. I have hunted since I was a little girl. I have never harmed another living soul and I know no hunter that has...... even those who started hunting at a very young age.

We take hunting safety very seriously down here and all of the children that I have know through the many decades fully respects the weapon they use and knows the power it has and it is not to be used to ever harm another human being. They know that very clearly.....with no hesitation or confusion.

So it isn't the hunting that brought this on imo. It was just the weapon he chose to do as he had planned. Imo he knew they weren't going to get back up when he shot them...that is why he used the 22 rifle in the first place.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

There has been some discussion of the appropriateness of taking an eight year old hunting. There are some differences in rural and city here.

In rural areas a child might raise a steer, a goat, a rabbit, a lamb or a chicken knowing that it is going to market for slaughter. They might learn to hunt for rabbits and squirrels, because they are good eating. They may fish because they are good eating. Later they might learn to deer hunt. Also good eating. They might use it to hunt to kill nuisance/destructive animals, animals that could endanger their crops. And because both make a break for their routine. I suspect that many people hunt just because it gives them the excuse to "commune" with nature without being called a sissy. A responsible experienced parent who teaches the child to hunt also teaches them respect for the gun, and how to safely handle it. Learning to hunt is sometimes seen as a right of passage for male kids. And hate to tell you all, but it isn't uncommon (though not as common as it used to be.) When I was a kid I didn't hunt, but I did help my Dad to gut and clean squirrels and rabbits after his hunting trip (I was female and he didn't think girls should do that.) I have seen a deer prepared.

It is sometimes hard for people who didn't grow up that way to understand. When we go to the store and pick up a piece of steak, pork chop or a chicken breast, we don't think of the fact that these are animals that sometimes look cute. But calves, pigs and chickens go through a cute stage too. But in a rural area, they don't think of them as cute either. They think of them as profit, as good eating, or others as a serious pest.

It doesn't make them more prone to violence. Probably because they think of guns and fishing rods as a tool, like the shovels and pitchforks they use. Because they do grow up with guns, they also seem to have more respect for them. They don't seem to see them as a power trip, or way to enforce. They just don't have the same mystic. As a result, you will find that most hunters who grew up with guns, just aren't as violence prone.

Excellent summation, mysteriew.

You brought back fond memories for me.

When I shoot a deer I always help my husband and son clean it and prepare it to be taken to a processing place. It makes me feel good that the food we eat was something I had a part in providing. I love deer meat fixed in various ways and I feel good that I am feeding my family healthy food that I know has no contaminates such as chemicals, e-coli etc. in it. Venison is listed in the American Heart Association cookbook as one of the best meats to eat.

We love to be among nature and the bond it brings within our families. Sitting deep in the woods waiting for that beautiful sunrise. We respect the place we hunt in and always make sure when we leave each time it remains as majestic as always and in its pristine beauty.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Looks can be deceiving, as hard as it is to say this..well for starters..they said just about the same thing about Dennis Raider..but anyway..MAYBE Dad was up for father of the year, maybe he was the greatest Dad ever..or at least he may have been a hard working loving Daddy..The fact remains that something SOMETHING had to have happened to trigger this, if the boy was 15 maybe I wouldn't really be questioning it...as a matter of fact I would probably think "well it's happened again"..but this baby is 8 years old! I do not know if you have children or not, I have 2 and the psychology just isn't there for this. I can see this child "acting out" before it came down to this, but noone seems to have seen it. And if he did exhibit the signs or try to reach out to anyone in anyway..even on a subconscious level..he was failed.

Peace
+

I have 5 children and 11 grandchildren. All my children knew by the age of 6 or 7, right from wrong.

I am not saying that he wasn't abused because I do not know one way or the other but what I am saying is we have nothing to support that he was. It is routine police procedure that part will be checked out. I feel very uncomfortable blaming a father for his own death and the death of his friend when I have nothing that says that is true or calling him an abuser when he may have been a terrific dad and loved his son dearly. To me he is a victim of a cruel and senseless homicide so of course my heart goes out to him as it does for all murder victims. Even if the boy was abused, I will feel sorry for the child but that does not negate my feelings that he, like anyone, cannot get away with going around murdering two people. Imo, that, if true, should be a mitigating factor to be considered if he is convicted of the crimes. The Judge may decide he needs house arrest and extensive treatment or they may not.

We have seen young people become killers of their parents or family for a myriad of reasons........plenty of the motives had nothing to do with being abused at all. They run the gambit but what a lot of them turn out to be are absolutely trivial and nonsensical. Anger at being disciplined or put on restriction, didn't get to do something they wanted to do, didn't like having to do chores or follow guidelines, didn't get to hang around with someone they wanted to.......thought their lives would be better without them and they would have more freedom to do as they pleased. etc.

He simply may have thought it would be more fun if he lived with his mother and saw the father as an obstacle that stood in the way of that. I do think the timing of the mother's visit from MS just last weekend to be significant in the timing of all of this.

I read a thread on here last year where a 7 year old boy raped a little 5-6 year old girl in the bathroom at their school. It was hard to believe that a child this young was capable of that but imo times and children (not all but some) are changing.

imoo