AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

[Trino]

The boy is going home to his bio mother for Thanksgiving? Now this is really teaching him a lesson. Even a juvenile charged with murder doesn't get this privilege.

 

[liljim]

i would really like to see the court transcript from today's hearing, the judge must have a compelling reason why he will allow the boy to go home, unsupervised, for 2 days, with someone that has not been his primary care giver for some time.

i would certainly hope they established that he has no resentment towards his mother, that the house will be inspected, and that he has offered them further explanation for what happened beyond "i forgot my schoolparers and got 5 spankings".

and that somehow this visit will be productive for the case, and the boy.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

i would really like to see the court transcript from today's hearing, the judge must have a compelling reason why he will allow the boy to go home, unsupervised, for 2 days, with someone that has not been his primary care giver for some time.

i would certainly hope they established that he has no resentment towards his mother, that the house will be inspected, and that he has offered them further explanation for what happened beyond "i forgot my schoolparers and got 5 spankings".

and that somehow this visit will be productive for the case, and the boy.

Well the Judge did say he would have to be under the responsibility of the bio mom and if she doesn't comply she and the boy will have a warrant issued for their arrest.

I don't find this unusual.....juveniles are rarely held the entire time before they go to trial.

imoo

 

[ArizonaGiGi]

I moved away from the area where this happened just last month. I'm in another state now but after living there for 3 years I can tell you that

A) the entire county is rife with meth. I have never in my life seen such abuse. It is commonplace to see people with the obvious signs of meth abuse everywhere. I would say 1/3 or more of the people you see in public are abusers current or former. David Spade mentioned the area and it's severe meth problem, in an interview on a late night show (Letterman or Leno) just a few months ago. This might explain the 8 yr olds knowledge of the term "juvie". Many many kids live in poverty in the area due to the drug problem and it is commonplace for teenagers to have probation officers. Seriously.
I don't believe this family had a drug problem but the 8 yr old was around it and saw it daily with neighbors, at school and in public.

B) It is very rural and most people hunt. It's bubba country. Not unusual for an 8 yr old to hunt etc. On the front page of the paper they will print pictures of "11 year old Johnny's first buck" etc. Bubba country big time. Personally I hate hunting but that's irrelevant.

C) It is 35% Mormon. Mormons in that part of the country are good people, but also very strict. Perhaps the Dad was in some extreme religion that was overly strict (in the 8 yr olds opinion) and that was the cause of the shootings?

Just throwing this stuff out there. I think the kid did the shooting hard as it is to comprehend. I think that because he is so unemotional. If it was a false confession (ie; Michael Crowe) I think that an 8 yr old would have worn down in the interview and cried, been frustrated and scared. He seemed to be none. Cool calm and collected.

 

[AuntieLynda~]

My first inclination is to want to say, "an 8 year-old couldn't do it." Especially since there were two grown men killed, but after reading the articles and learning more, I'd have to say it is possible. The wife of the second victim (the friend) said she heard the child in the background call her husband into the house while she was on the phone with him. If that detail is true, it kind of clinches it, almost.

The questions on my mind are: 1. Isn't 8 a little young to teach a child to hunt and use a gun? 2. Where was the step-mother when all this occurred? One of the articles said that the child's father had the step-mother spank him the night before. If that's true, it might account for the child's rage. 3. What real life experience had this particular child had with death? Had anyone in his life (a young friend, a grandparent, etc.) ever died? Did he have any real-life concept of what death means? I know that children these days may be hardened by television and movie life/death experiences, but do those vicarious experiences really give the child knowledge of the meaning of death? In my own life, I know I first became cognizant of the concept of death when I was 7 and a girl in my class was struck and killed by a car. Prior to that, I had no personal experience with death, and I was under the impression that when people died, they went to Heaven. I thought that going to Heaven was like going to visit Grandma, one could come back just as easily as one could go. I remember being profoundly traumatized by the realization that death was terminal. I didn't have a clue. What did this child know? I would think that would have a great deal to do with his concept of right and wrong. IF he did this, did he really know what he was doing? Maybe, maybe not.

If raised in a particularly brutal environment, I don't doubt that an 8-year-old could commit murder. Knowing this particular kid, and gaining an in-depth understanding of his understanding of reality would be key, I think, to determining the measure of his true guilt. Either way, I'd say his life is pretty well ruined already. Whether he did this or just confessed to something not knowing what he was getting into, I don't see any out for him. I think this situation calls for a lot of prayer.

Lynda

 

[chicagofa13]

Thanks.

I am not surprised to see this. I think mostly likely the bio mother will get custody of him eventually. She may have to agree to reside in AZ though.

I highly doubt that anyone else is wanting to have custody of him so it makes it easier for her.

I did notice that the Judge said no knives or guns could be in his presence.

imoo

I know I shouldn't be laughing, but I had to laugh at the "ok you can go home, just no guns or knives". HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLO? Obviously if you say no guns or knives you still think he is a threat to someone! Come on, he said he had to end their suffering? If he didn't shoot them both he wouldn't have had to END THEIR SUFFERING!!!

I don't have kids and am not having kids. I guess that's why I can look at this from a different perspective. However, innocent children being harmed, mistreated, murdered, etc. disgusts me. Key word: innocent. Right now I don't see him as mistreated, harmed OR innocent. Just a possible psychopath (or whatever the DSM version is this year).

They better keep an eye on good old Mom and this kid, we could end up with a fugitive or two.

 

[colette]

AuntieLynda, the step mom was still at work. In my opinion she was saved from death after work by the fact Mr Roman fell outside the house instead of inside.

To answer your other question, he knew how to kill prairie dogs... so he knew dead was dead.

 

[chiperoni]

It isn't child neglect. I don't agree with this post and please don't presume to speak for me in the future.

It is very common for children this age to own and use guns. The whole world isn't raised in an apartment complex.

Hi I'm sorry I offended you but I said MOST of us agree that a child 8 years old is too young to have access a gun unsupervised and yes there is a smaller percentage of posters who said that an eight year old child shouldn't own a gun. Even his stepmother didn't think he should own a gun but opted for a BB gun. If it s very common for children to own a gun, even eight year olds, but how common is it for them to have free access to their gun? My own opinion is that it was neglect on the part of the father.

 

[chicagofa13]

Just watched NG and she has no idea what to do with this case either.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Hi I'm sorry I offended you but I said MOST of us agree that a child 8 years old is too young to have access a gun unsupervised and yes there is a smaller percentage of posters who said that an eight year old child shouldn't own a gun. Even his stepmother didn't think he should own a gun but opted for a BB gun. If it s very common for children to own a gun, even eight year olds, but how common is it for them to have free access to their gun? My own opinion is that it was neglect on the part of the father.

I don't think so. I think he betrayed the trust that the father had placed in him to do as he promised he would do.

He admits that he would sneak around and use the air rifle/pellet gun behind his father's back. So he knew touching the guns stored in his father's bedroom was off limits to him. His father trusted his son to be safe with a weapon and to never touch them if he wasn't in his presence.

It isn't the father's fault because he believed his son.

imoo

 

[OrdinaryLife]

This child should have had ~someone~ on his behalf when LE questioned him. I agree with many legal opinion statements that this could hurt LE and their case. As an 8 year old child, even accused as he is for murder, someone should have been there to represent him. No 8 year old is going to understand the legal rights he has. Why was no one called on his behalf and legal protection??? I will not be surprised of the video confession is tossed out.

As far as this child going home for Thanksgiving, fine. I have absolutely no problem with it. I still cannot throw this child away nor define him as some kind of sociopath. I await evaluations from the pros and will continue to follow how this story unfolds. There is more to this....

 

[oceanblueeyes]

AuntieLynda, the step mom was still at work. In my opinion she was saved from death after work by the fact Mr Roman fell outside the house instead of inside.

To answer your other question, he knew how to kill prairie dogs... so he knew dead was dead.

I really think he picked this particular day because he knew she wouldn't be coming in for hours but was going to be 4 hours late. She must have had to work overtime on her job.

I am not sure Mr. Romans ever even made it further than reaching for the door when he was mowed down and fell straight backwards onto the porch where he was standing. I think most likely he was hit in the frontal area while I think Vincent was hit from the back and fell forward face down on the stairs.

Yes, he most certainly knew about death and it being final. He did not get his perceptions about death from some fantasy video game where they keep getting back up. When he fired 8 times he knew they both were dead and never going to get back up again.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

This child should have had ~someone~ on his behalf when LE questioned him. I agree with many legal opinion statements that this could hurt LE and their case. As an 8 year old child, even accused as he is for murder, someone should have been there to represent him. No 8 year old is going to understand the legal rights he has. Why was no one called on his behalf and legal protection??? I will not be surprised of the video confession is tossed out.

As far as this child going home for Thanksgiving, fine. I have absolutely no problem with it. I still cannot throw this child away nor define him as some kind of sociopath. I await evaluations from the pros and will continue to follow how this story unfolds. There is more to this....

Well according to Wendy Murphy, in AZ they certainly have a right to interview a minor by themselves. They thought through most all of this that he was an eye witness at the crime scene. Like Wendy said sometimes it is not wise if a parent is there with a child because it may be a situation where the child feels uncomfortable with the parent being there and would not open up truthfully to what happened or what they know. So it does have its pros and cons, I guess. I do think they should have stopped when he stated he had shot both of them twice each.

However I don't think the confession will make or break this case. Whether it is tossed or a part of it or allowed will not be the crux of this case imo. It is going to be the evidence and from what they have said they took a lot of evidence out of the home. They also said they have witnesses and imo I think someone saw CR go inside his home before his dad drove in from work.

imoo

 

[chiperoni]

I don't think so. I think he betrayed the trust that the father had placed in him to do as he promised he would do.

He admits that he would sneak around and use the air rifle/pellet gun behind his father's back. So he knew touching the guns stored in his father's bedroom was off limits to him. His father trusted his son to be safe with a weapon and to never touch them if he wasn't in his presence.

It isn't the father's fault because he believed his son.

imoo

The child had access to the gun at eight years of age. It wasn't secured or locked away. We could gp on this ride forever. Obviously a 22 kills sadly even when an eight year old pulls the trigger. I really see your side Ocean Blue Eyes. I do think the dad was trying to be a good father. There were problems in the household and btw, as you know, his stepmother and father disagreed about the gun. It was a lapse of judgement on the father's part which led to horrible consequences. As far as the confession goes here is a panel of legal experts discussing the video on CNN. This whole scenario has been so sad from the beginning.

www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/19/boy.confession.tactics/?iref=mpstoryview

 

[chiperoni]

Agree 100%

Sorry about that. I wrote MOST of us agree that an eight year old child should not have unsupervised access to a gun and some even agree any access to a gun. My own opininion is that it was child neglect which is in the next sentence. I want to make it clear. This thread is becoming so heated and a lot of personal anecdotes are being used instead of facts. I don't presume to speak for anyone. Please forgive.

 

[liljim]

i havent seen the 9pm news from out there, but in an earlier promo for it they said that tim roman's family is very upset that the child is being let out for thanksgiving, they also showed his birth mother and she appears to be in her late 20's (imo).

they said no more videos will be released but transcipts will be. im not sure if that means just a complete transcript of the interviews or also transcripts from the hearings.

does anyone have a link to somewhere we can find official documents released in this case? or do we have to just wait for the news sites to link them? im wondering if the courthouse or police office would make them available on their sites, think i will go look into that now...

 

[impatientredhead]

I am confused by this entire case.
Why would his interview be released to the media?
How does this not fall under part of an ongoing investigation?
I do not get how he is going home for two days.
How in the world is an eight year old who casually shot two people not a risk to everyone around him including himself? There could not have been major psychological intervention at this point.

From a legal standpoint I am sure his statements and interviews will be thrown out. He is too young to understand his rights. They have thrown out confessions for not understanding the language or not having the IQ to grasp what they mean. Based on what we have been told though his statements won't be needed, the physical evidence seems to be overwhelming.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I am confused by this entire case.
Why would his interview be released to the media?
How does this not fall under part of an ongoing investigation?
I do not get how he is going home for two days.
How in the world is an eight year old who casually shot two people not a risk to everyone around him including himself? There could not have been major psychological intervention at this point.

From a legal standpoint I am sure his statements and interviews will be thrown out. He is too young to understand his rights. They have thrown out confessions for not understanding the language or not having the IQ to grasp what they mean. Based on what we have been told though his statements won't be needed, the physical evidence seems to be overwhelming.

Morning!

I am not sure but it may be, anything that has already been released to the defense attorney in discovery can be filed for public consumption. Sort of like what has been done in the Casey Anthony case, little by little.

I would think that the hearing yesterday was public like there were media at the last one that reported on what was said in the hearing. We may see some of those articles again today or a transcript of it.

I don't really know if the confession will be tossed or not. I have heard some say yes, and some say no, but I do agree it will not be needed and isn't the crux of proving this case. It will be the evidence that ties him to the crimes imo and any witnesses that may have seen things or heard things when the boy wasn't aware they did.

Yes, the two days for Thanksgiving is sort of creepy especially when attached to "no knives or guns."



imoo

 

[Linda7NJ]

i would really like to see the court transcript from today's hearing, the judge must have a compelling reason why he will allow the boy to go home, unsupervised, for 2 days, with someone that has not been his primary care giver for some time.

i would certainly hope they established that he has no resentment towards his mother, that the house will be inspected, and that he has offered them further explanation for what happened beyond "i forgot my school parents and got 5 spankings".

and that somehow this visit will be productive for the case, and the boy.

IMO the kid probably has some attachment and abandonment issues.

Kids often think the grass is greener when in trouble, he may have idealized what life with bio mom would be like. Example, she'd let me do whatever I want. IF he killed his father to go live with his mom..........sending him there for Thanksgiving is certainly going to reinforce and reward his murder spree.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I am confused by this entire case.
Why would his interview be released to the media?
How does this not fall under part of an ongoing investigation?
I do not get how he is going home for two days.
How in the world is an eight year old who casually shot two people not a risk to everyone around him including himself? There could not have been major psychological intervention at this point.

From a legal standpoint I am sure his statements and interviews will be thrown out. He is too young to understand his rights. They have thrown out confessions for not understanding the language or not having the IQ to grasp what they mean. Based on what we have been told though his statements won't be needed, the physical evidence seems to be overwhelming.

Where I live...juveniles are tired in Family Court and the rules of evidence in adult court simply do not apply....... It will be allowed.