AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

[SoobsinMI]

The father was Catholic, not Mormon.

The caveat of "no guns or knives" sounds pretty standard - just like those who are released on probation always get a "no alcohol/drugs" even if their crime wasn't related to the use of either (at least here.)

Even if one didn't want a parent to sit in with the child, I can't believe NO child advocate (even one from CPS) was in that interview room.

Florida has the broadest Sunshine law, which is why nearly everything about the Anthony case has been disclosed. I don't know about Arizona, I'd have to look that up.

 

[MeoW333]

Sorry about that. I wrote MOST of us agree that an eight year old child should not have unsupervised access to a gun and some even agree any access to a gun. My own opininion is that it was child neglect which is in the next sentence. I want to make it clear. This thread is becoming so heated and a lot of personal anecdotes are being used instead of facts. I don't presume to speak for anyone. Please forgive.

I agree, Chiperoni in that i think there was a lot of neglect. It would explain why the boy was able to get out his gun in the first place. He also mentioned in the interview sometimes his dad would leave his own gun bag at the bottom of the stairs and his step mother would make him carry it up for his dad. All the guns in that house should have been locked away at all times. The boy should have had more parental supervision and nurturing attention in general.

 

[GlitchWizard]

He did, you are right! ..and he lied and then changed his lies when he was caught lying. IMO, he's been lying for a long time.

The interview sounded to me like when I tried to get to the bottom of things in my afterschool daycare. The lies flowed around so much that even when you tried to make the pieces fit, they never did. I'd be just as willing to bet that even if there was no residue on him or his clothing, just them insinuating they might find it, would be enough for him to make up an excuse for something just in case it was there. He's not old enough to understand that it really WOULD NOT be there if he didn't shoot the gun and it could clear him.

So, I'm on the fence, leaning toward he didn't - because he's so young and there is no way to question him to get to the truth. You have to look at hard evidence and make positively sure he did it. I'd treat it like a false confession until and if it's all beyond a reasonable doubt. (Keep in mind, I have not delved into the evidence so far, just the confession video itself is all I am basing this on.)

As for 8 being too young to go hunting - that's the age in my area when they're bagging and cleaning their own deer around here. Generally, they have their own gun and are responsible for keeping it oiled and put up by then, too. I'm currently begging my best friend not to take his little girl bow hunting this season - if her arrow strikes the heart of bambi (and she's every bit a girlie girl) I think it will be horrible for her. But, not my decision to make, of course.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree, Chiperoni in that i think there was a lot of neglect. It would explain why the boy was able to get out his gun in the first place. He also mentioned in the interview sometimes his dad would leave his own gun bag at the bottom of the stairs and his step mother would make him carry it up for his dad. All the guns in that house should have been locked away at all times. The boy should have had more parental supervision and nurturing attention in general.

What I see is this child could not be trusted. It is very logical since the father sought guidance from the Priest about this issue that he laid down the law to his son about not touching any weapons ever with the purpose to use them...not even the air gun..and I am sure he assured his father that he would do like he promised.

It is not neglect. There are no requirements that a gun must be locked away. If guns are locked up tight then the owners have no quick accessibility to them should they need them for self protection or protection of their family if someone intrudes into the home wanting to harm or kill them.

It seemed he did have parental supervision and this is what started all of this. He did not like that he was disciplined. His mom did see that the weapons were put away and not left in their soft case at the foot of the stairs.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The interview sounded to me like when I tried to get to the bottom of things in my after school daycare. The lies flowed around so much that even when you tried to make the pieces fit, they never did. I'd be just as willing to bet that even if there was no residue on him or his clothing, just them insinuating they might find it, would be enough for him to make up an excuse for something just in case it was there. He's not old enough to understand that it really WOULD NOT be there if he didn't shoot the gun and it could clear him.

So, I'm on the fence, leaning toward he didn't - because he's so young and there is no way to question him to get to the truth. You have to look at hard evidence and make positively sure he did it. I'd treat it like a false confession until and if it's all beyond a reasonable doubt. (Keep in mind, I have no delved into the evidence so far, just the confession video itself is all I am basing this on.)

As for 8 being too young to go hunting - that's the age in my area when they're bagging and cleaning their own deer around here. Generally, they have their own gun and are responsible for keeping it oiled and put up by then, too. I'm currently begging my best friend not to take his little girl bow hunting this season - if her arrow strikes the heart of bambi (and she's every bit a girlie girl) I think it will be horrible for her. But, not my decision to make, of course.

I really think the "false confession" is way overblown and out of proportion. Dr. Ablow said yesterday that in over a decade there has been about three children who have done false confessions.

With all the crimes committed in the past few years by younger people it shows me that most all do tell the truth.

I have nothing to support that this was a false confession but I do agree the evidence in this case is what will show who the murderer of these men is.

They took his clothing that he wore that day. It is very reasonable to believe if he shot 8 times inside a home that he would have gunshot residue on his clothing. They did not suspect him the first night so they most likely did not test his hands for GSR. They also know already if the shots were very close up when fired into the victims.

imoo

 

[mendz]

The Eddie Eagle Gun Safe program (NRA) recommends that gun owners "Store guns so that they are inaccessible to children and other unauthorized users."
http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/infoparents.asp
I don't care if this kid was the most responsible, trustworthy kid ever, he should have never had unsupervised access to a firearm.

 

[SoobsinMI]

I really think the "false confession" is way overblown and out of proportion. Dr. Ablow said yesterday that in over a decade there has been about three children who have done false confessions.

I'm still searching AZ penal code, to see if the police are allowed to interview an 8 year old child, without the presence of a GAL, attorney, or parent. It's astounding to me that this interview continued once he claimed he shot the gun (whether it was a false confession of not.) I do believe, after reading the penal code, that the confession will be thrown out. But I still can't find a difinitive answer on what the protocol is for interviewing an 8 year old child.

 

[MeoW333]

What I see is this child could not be trusted. It is very logical since the father sought guidance from the Priest about this issue that he laid down the law to his son about not touching any weapons ever with the purpose to use them...not even the air gun..and I am sure he assured his father that he would do like he promised.

It is not neglect. There are no requirements that a gun must be locked away. If guns are locked up tight then the owners have no quick accessibility to them should they need them for self protection or protection of their family if someone intrudes into the home wanting to harm or kill them.

It seemed he did have parental supervision and this is what started all of this. He did not like that he was disciplined. His mom did see that the weapons were put away and not left in their soft case at the foot of the stairs.

imoo

You said it yourself; the "child could not be trusted" therefore he should not have had access to any guns.
We'll never know what the Priest told the father as advice. He can't say it's kept in religious confidence.
The fact that his father had to ask anyone for advice on his own son shows us something.

While there may not be requirements that a gun be locked away there; it is common sense that guns be locked away from children.

The father didn't seem to think that 8 year olds may sometimes be disobediant and curious and keep the guns locked away. Regardless of whether or not an 8 year old child gives his word and swears up and down not to touch them; you don't leave guns accessible. At the very least case since accidents can happen. How many children end up shooting each other each year since guns aren't secured?

 

[Trino]

I'm still searching AZ penal code, to see if the police are allowed to interview an 8 year old child, without the presence of a GAL, attorney, or parent. It's astounding to me that this interview continued once he claimed he shot the gun (whether it was a false confession of not.) I do believe, after reading the penal code, that the confession will be thrown out. But I still can't find a difinitive answer on what the protocol is for interviewing an 8 year old child.

Throw the interview out. It doesn't matter, since the evidence that the boy killed two people is what is important.

The boy lied that he walked 9-10 times around the block before going home. Neighbor kids said he didn't.

The boarder was found lying in the yard. There was no one lying in the yard when the boy entered the house - verified by neighbor kids.

The boarder was on the phone with his wife when the boy called him from inside the house.

The boy said he saw a white car. There isn't even a stop sign in St. Johns. No one reported a white car or strangers in town.

The boy used his own gun. There are fingerprints, gun residue to prove this.

There is not a law in AZ that guns must be locked. Maybe it seems common sense in today's world, but the NRA cannot legislate state laws. The truth is that the father trusted his son.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

You said it yourself; the "child could not be trusted" therefore he should not have had access to any guns.
We'll never know what the Priest told the father as advice. He can't say it's kept in religious confidence.
The fact that his father had to ask anyone for advice on his own son shows us something.

While there may not be requirements that a gun be locked away there; it is common sense that guns be locked away from children.

The father didn't seem to think that 8 year olds may sometimes be disobedient and curious and keep the guns locked away. Regardless of whether or not an 8 year old child gives his word and swears up and down not to touch them; you don't leave guns accessible. At the very least case since accidents can happen. How many children end up shooting each other each year since guns aren't secured?

I haven't heard of many? Do you have the number on how many children shoot themselves accidentally each year and I thought that was more about finding handguns not youth model 22 rifles. Some of the handguns even belonged to a parent in law enforcement.

Of course now we know he couldn't be trusted. He said he did these things behind his father's back so the father never knew his son couldn't be trusted.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Throw the interview out. It doesn't matter, since the evidence that the boy killed two people is what is important.

The boy lied that he walked 9-10 times around the block before going home. Neighbor kids said he didn't.

The boarder was found lying in the yard. There was no one lying in the yard when the boy entered the house - verified by neighbor kids.

The boarder was on the phone with his wife when the boy called him from inside the house.

The boy said he saw a white car. There isn't even a stop sign in St. Johns. No one reported a white car or strangers in town.

The boy used his own gun. There are fingerprints, gun residue to prove this.

There is not a law in AZ that guns must be locked. Maybe it seems common sense in today's world, but the NRA cannot legislate state laws. The truth is that the father trusted his son.

I absolutely agree with all of your post.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The Eddie Eagle Gun Safe program (NRA) recommends that gun owners "Store guns so that they are inaccessible to children and other unauthorized users."
http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/infoparents.asp
I don't care if this kid was the most responsible, trustworthy kid ever, he should have never had unsupervised access to a firearm.

Why? Millions of kids prove they can be trusted and to always respect the weapon and the rules laid down by the parents.

They don't kill anyone...not themselves and certainly not their parents.

imoo

 

[SailorMoon]

I just don't know what to think about this case....it is especially hard for me to fathom since I have 3 kids, my youngest son just turned 7. To picture him a year later killing 2 people is beyond my comprehension. I may be wrong but I think there was more to this story. I agree that abusers can seem like June Cleaver in public and what goes on behind closed doors is a different story.

I am glad to hear he is going to his mothers for a couple of days. I just feel sorry for him..and yet he killed 2 people. No one wins in this situation.

 

[SoobsinMI]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/20/20081120boyconfession.html

Roca said he would uphold Arizona's public-records law, but not at the expense of the child's welfare and future. He ruled that police reports may be released, but journalists will not be given film or tape-recordings of statements, only transcripts. If that order is violated, he warned, "there's a realistic chance that somebody's going to go to jail . . . I am chilling not just the speech, but I hope the blood" of media organizations.

Public airing of the confession prompted widespread criticism from juvenile advocates and justice-system experts who questioned why the boy was alone, and why the video was made public.

Former Arizona Attorney General Grant Woods said he believes the statement will be thrown out, and any evidence obtained exclusively as a result of it will also be dismissed.

Woods said it was apparent from the tape that police "were clearly trying to convince him to confess."

"I don't think there is any question that the questioning of this 8-year-old boy was inappropriate," Woods added. "The case law is pretty clear. You need to have someone there who is going to protect his rights, and that wasn't done."

Woods said he understands the intense public interest in such a case, noting that "whatever happened in that house is unimaginable." But he condemned the release of a confession video so early, showing a defendant so young.

"Doing so has hurt the boy's right to be treated fairly," Woods said.

During Wednesday's hearing, defense attorneys indicated their client is already traumatized.

"I have some information that he may not be doing well, aside from the fact that he's almost in solitary," Wood said.

Roca granted permission to hire a counselor to help the boy. The judge also approved a two-day furlough for the child to spend Thanksgiving with his birth mother. He told the woman, "You're on the hook. If he doesn't make it back (to custody), there's going to be a warrant for him, and for you."

In other rulings at Wednesday's hearing, the judge:


• Authorized prosecutors to obtain hair, saliva and blood samples, as well as fingerprints and X-rays from the child.


• Ordered prosecutors to decide within 15 days whether they will seek to have the boy tried as an adult.


• Instructed defense attorneys to obtain the juvenile's medical records and provide them to the prosecution.

Why X-rays? That won't show any brain injury/disease but would show past bone injury.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Hi
I agree with you SailorMoon.No one wins in this situation.The whole story is real sad.

suzanne

 

[CyberLaw]

I cannot believe that the "interrogators" whom are trained in "psychological" manipulation "questioned and interrogated" a child without a parent and or advocate present.

I put money on this confession "being thrown out".

For goodness sake he is a child, whom needed a lawyer at the very least, an adult to advocate for his "rights".

 

[southcitymom]

Over the objection of prosectuors, the kid is going home with his mom for Thanksgiving:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454984,00.html

I am very happy to hear this.

 

[southcitymom]

Lying at 8 & 9 is normal

I agree.

 

[southcitymom]

Throw the interview out. It doesn't matter, since the evidence that the boy killed two people is what is important.

The boy lied that he walked 9-10 times around the block before going home. Neighbor kids said he didn't.

The boarder was found lying in the yard. There was no one lying in the yard when the boy entered the house - verified by neighbor kids.

The boarder was on the phone with his wife when the boy called him from inside the house.

The boy said he saw a white car. There isn't even a stop sign in St. Johns. No one reported a white car or strangers in town.

The boy used his own gun. There are fingerprints, gun residue to prove this.

There is not a law in AZ that guns must be locked. Maybe it seems common sense in today's world, but the NRA cannot legislate state laws. The truth is that the father trusted his son.

I agree with this post.

 

[impatientredhead]

I am very happy to hear this.

Really? Just curious would you be equally happy if he was going to be having this happy holiday next door to your family?

I still think the gun conversation is being blown out of proportion. Yes, clearly the child was not trustworthy with a gun, but in general those common sense guidelines to keep guns out of the unsupervised reach of children are to prevent accidents not homicides. That is the tragedy that befalls normal happy eight year old boys that gain access to an unsupervised gun, not a premeditated double homicide. I think gun or not, this day or another tragedy was going to befall this boy and his family and that is the why I want to know more about.