AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

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  • #661
I'm late getting to this thread because things have been so hectic for me. I have so many questions in this case, not sure if there are even answers yet. Why was he living with his father? Were his mother and father ever married? Did he get along with his stepmother? Did he have friends at school or was he a loner?

I am just so shocked by this. I would give anything to know exactly what went down, why he did this (if he did it), etc. Absolutely incredible that a child so young could be involved in such a horrible situation.
 
  • #662
yikes :( the gun used was a single shot bolt action 22 rifle, meaning between EVERY shot the shooter had to pull the bolt back to eject the cartridge, then load another bullet by hand, and then push the bolt forward and pull the trigger.

eep.

there was also an approximately 8 yard blood trickle to where they found tim's body, meaning he was shot and was trying to advance on the shooter, making it 8 yards before he was finally dead.

someone said earlier there was a witness that puts the child in the house right after school with no body on the lawn - can you provide a source for that? im not seeing it anywhere. thanx.

Where did you see or hear the information about the 8 yard trickle. I haven't heard that but imo it doesn't mean he was trying to advance but most likely this is the pattern made when he bled out through his serious wounds. It seems logical that he literally bled to death from his numerous wounds.

I can't remember where I read it but I know I did read somewhere witnesses said he did not walk around the block as he has said. With 30 witnesses already on the Prosecutor's list I do think they do have eye and ear witnesses that saw or heard things.

Head shots bleed profusely.

imoo
 
  • #663
I'm late getting to this thread because things have been so hectic for me. I have so many questions in this case, not sure if there are even answers yet. Why was he living with his father? Were his mother and father ever married? Did he get along with his stepmother? Did he have friends at school or was he a loner?

I am just so shocked by this. I would give anything to know exactly what went down, why he did this (if he did it), etc. Absolutely incredible that a child so young could be involved in such a horrible situation.


He and his father were both well liked in the community. No he was not a loner. Very active child and the father supported him in those activities. Citizens said Vincent took his son everywhere with him.

The child has always lived with his father but the father was awarded physical custody of the child, two years ago. The bio mom and bio dad shared joint custody. They divorced 6 years ago. She moved to MS about 3 and a half years ago.

I think he did gets along with his stepmother....he calls her "mom" and she has been a consistent figure in his life for over two years.

imoo
 
  • #664
i have to say that i still won't be surprised to hear that someone else may have been there. because the evidence does really point to a lot of planning and basically luck (or bad luck) for an 8 year old to pull this off by himself. part of me still wants to believe that somehow it wasnt him i guess, or that someone was directing him. :(

the following is my total speculation of what happened based on the facts i know.

SPECULATION NOT FACT.

the father and tim arrive home together in the same truck.
the boy is home already and is upstairs with the gun, the box of bullets is open downstairs near the couch so he probably waits downstairs watching for the truck coming then runs upstairs with extra bullets in his pocket.
tim stays in the truck to call his wife and the father goes in the house and heads upstairs.
there is a landing then the second half of the flight of stairs goes back the other way (180 degree turn) and as the father reaches the top of the stairs he is shot.
there is no blood trail near this body so its possible the father is shot in the head on the first shot, but my guess is he is shot in the chest, he is then shot 4 more times, several shots are to the chest and one of the shots to the head does significant immediately noticable damage.
the boy must know they dont enter the house together because he knows he has to reload and that wouldnt be likely possible if he is confronted by two adults at the same time. and as we know now it was tim's routine to call his wife after work, probably most often from the truck in the driveway after the father goes in.
remember that with the rifle he used, he is standing in the hall upstairs with it loaded and aimed at the stairwell, he shoots, then he must rotate the bolt handle on the side of rifle up and then pull it back about 4-5 inches(?). he probably has the stock of the gun tucked under his arm as he does this, and his other hand holding the grip on the barrel of the gun. then he has to grab another bullet out of his pocket, slide it into the chamber, and then slide the bolt forward and down into a catch position, then (unless he fires from the hip so to speak) he has to return the butt of the gun to his shoulder, aim and fire. he must do all that between each shot.
well trained adults can do it fairly quickly for sure, 8 year olds? i dont know. he can certainly do it, but under pressure? very quickly? i just dont know, but it sure looks like he managed it. 5 times.
then he goes downstairs and calls out to tim "tim, come in, something is wrong with dad, tim come quick", tim's wife overhears the boys voice on the phone and tim says to her "the boy is calling me, something is wrong, i dont know whats going on, i have to go" and he hangs up abruptly.
tim is about 8 yards from the door and the boy opens the screen door and shoots him hitting him in the chest, tim advances and is shot again in the chest, he still advances and is shot from below up thru his jaw, and then he is possibly on his knees or hands and knees and the boy has turned now and is facing the screen door and attempts to shoot tim in the head but misses and it enters the screen door from the outside travelling towards the inside of the house at a downward angle. he then does shoot tim once more in the head thru his hard hat which somehow amazingly still on his head (he also still had his work protective glasses on. again remember as tim is advancing towards the boy thru multiple shots, the boy must perform the procedure above after every shot.
the phone call is reported to have taken place just before 5 o'clock, a neighbors thinks he heard shots at just about 5 o'clock, and the 911 call is at approximately 5:06.
so the boy doesnt stay at the house long, maybe just long enough to put the gun down on the dog cage inside the door, and then he walks/runs to his friends house who calls his father at work, and the father calls 911.

MY SPECULATION BASED ON FACTS I KNOW.

ack i gotta go eat dinner, i will type some theories i have been considering when i get back.
 
  • #665
yikes :( the gun used was a single shot bolt action 22 rifle, meaning between EVERY shot the shooter had to pull the bolt back to eject the cartridge, then load another bullet by hand, and then push the bolt forward and pull the trigger.

eep.

there was also an approximately 8 yard blood trickle to where they found tim's body, meaning he was shot and was trying to advance on the shooter, making it 8 yards before he was finally dead.

someone said earlier there was a witness that puts the child in the house right after school with no body on the lawn - can you provide a source for that? im not seeing it anywhere. thanx.

I am still searching for the "8 yard trickle."

I did find this and I am going to paraphrase it because it is from an AP article.

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cach...s+Romero+and+Romans&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12&gl=us

Crime scene photos showed Tim Romans sprawled on the front porch. Vincent Romero was dressed in a plaid jacket, construction helmet and boots. He was laying face down on the stairs going up to the second floor. Both men had pools of blood around their heads.

VR hadn't even been home long enough to take his construction helmet off imo.
 
  • #666
here is the link, oh and the "trickle" is first called a trickle then further described as something like "a few spots here, and there, and there" more like a spotted trail of blood, which led to my conclusions.

http://groups.google.com/group/apacheschighprofile/web/jv2008065

and i wasnt sure if i was going to mention this but since it is in those records and they are public... apparently at the scene the boys grandmother said, talking about the boys father, her son "well at least it seems he died quickly" and the boy said "i dont think so grandma, because they were shot in the chest". (not exact quotes but fairly close)

and according to the detectives it was not readily apparent that either victim was shot in the chest when they first arrived on scene, i believe they were both face down.

:( doesnt look good. not that it did before i knew that...
 
  • #667
just saw your last response blue, i will reread the documents and see if i am mistaken about who still had their hard hat on, i swear i read it was romans tho, which means maybe it was both of them.

it seems like the first thing i would do is get my hard hat off when i was done with work, but maybe that just isnt their routine, when you wear the thing all day everyday i could see them just forgetting it was there if they store them in the house each night.

oh, and i wasnt able to find the documents after much searching, but another crafty WS'r found them and sent me the link. i will leave it up to them if they want to claim their good investigative work. :)
 
  • #668
Hi
Thankyou very much for the links.

suzanne
 
  • #669
just saw your last response blue, i will reread the documents and see if i am mistaken about who still had their hard hat on, i swear i read it was romans tho, which means maybe it was both of them.

it seems like the first thing i would do is get my hard hat off when i was done with work, but maybe that just isn't their routine, when you wear the thing all day everyday i could see them just forgetting it was there if they store them in the house each night.

oh, and i wasn't able to find the documents after much searching, but another crafty WS'r found them and sent me the link. i will leave it up to them if they want to claim their good investigative work. :)

I think Vincent was preceding upstairs to his bedroom where he most likely took off his hard hat and construction gear. He never had a chance to even make it up the stairs before he was killed.

imoo
 
  • #670
LilJim,
I'm gonna have to go re-read those docs, my understanding was VR was found on the top half of the steps face down head, but the head towards 2nd floor w/ the shell casing on the landing. So my interpretation was that he caught him from behind and shot him in the back then when he fell forward went up and shot him in the head. But I've read alot today so I could be wrong too. Alot to absorb. Would a shot in the back from a 22 cause one to even fall forward? IDK. Since it's all out in the open now though, I have to say I'm very disappointed w/ the way this was handled. That woman detective didn't impress me a bit. Anyone w/ common sense could see that they were looking at him as more than a victim and she blatantly lied to the judge, not till the last 10 min. of the interview was she suspect of him. HA! BS! ANd the judge knew it. If they weren't already, they were suspicious of him when they found out of the call from TR to his wife and what she had to say.
So IF it's ok to question him, w/out Mirandizing him or anything else, believing he COULD BE a suspect, w/ noone to represent his best interests, then why lie about it? She was clearing covering her butt. And once you do that, you lose all credibility IMO.
Don't get me wrong, I think he did it, I just think they handled it all very poorly.
Oh and when the officer said when he got the initial call of the dead body he thought it would be an overdose based on the area, did he mean that specific address, since they were given that and he was familiar enough with the area to know exactly who lived there that would make it likely to me. I'm going to believe he meant the neighborhood or street in general. But still who leaves an 8 y/o home alone afterschool w/ known drug addicts in the immediate area? What a tragedy.
 
  • #671
I am still searching for the "8 yard trickle."

I did find this and I am going to paraphrase it because it is from an AP article.

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cach...s+Romero+and+Romans&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12&gl=us

Crime scene photos showed Tim Romans sprawled on the front porch. Vincent Romero was dressed in a plaid jacket, construction helmet and boots. He was laying face down on the stairs going up to the second floor. Both men had pools of blood around their heads.

VR hadn't even been home long enough to take his construction helmet off imo.[/QUOTE]

Bolded by me
You are absolutely right OBE, he still had his hardhat on.
 
  • #672
ok all done with dinner :P

this theory takes a bunch more leaps to get to but im just trying things out;

the boy comes home from school and takes the gun outside to shoot at something somewhere close by for a little while knowing nobody will home for a bit.
he has been getting in trouble lately and getting spanked and is a little mad/scared.
he gets back too late and is just putting the gun away as he hears his dad come in his dad sees the bullets and starts yelling for the boy "son you better not have that gun out!" and heads up the stairs.
the boy freezes in the hall scared and still holding the gun, and when his father gets to the top and sees him with it the boy panics and shoots.

now you sort of have to figure the boy just has a complete almost psychotic break, or immediately goes into a form of shock, to believe that he does all the rest of his actions instead of just dropping the gun after the first shot, wetting his pants, and starting to cry hysterically.

total speculation, and not even something i really believe is possible, but i guess i just wish it could be so.

im still trying to work up a scenario where someone is there at the house with the boy, some older boy from school or something, but those prints would turn up on the gun (which we dont know yet if there were any other prints), but why would the kid not break down and tell the truth at the police station?

you would have to think the other person made the boy fire shots into both men also and told him "if you tell we both go to jail" or "i will tell them it was all your idea". some real threats, but the kid doesnt come across as soeone that has been threatened, he is really cool and fairly unemotional for almost the whole interview.
 
  • #673
yep shelby, i believe there were casings in the upstairs hallway and on the landing, it seemed to make more sense to me if he was waiting in the upstairs hallway rather than following his father up the stairs and trying to turn that corner and aim the gun etc.

blood spatter analysis should prove where each shot was fired from tho i would guess.
 
  • #674
Yes, liljim, what you say does make more sense. And it addition the comment he made to his grandmother about him being shot in the chest makes that the much more likely scenario.
 
  • #675
I don't think that it is because in #13 the same woman is opening the door of the truck that is pulling a small trailer that LE carry some of their equipment in. She must be with LE just not in uniform.

Maybe so Bobbi. They probably started showing up from all over.....even if they were off duty and called to report quickly. This crime really rocked that community.......... even the police imo.

imoo
 
  • #676
yep shelby, i believe there were casings in the upstairs hallway and on the landing, it seemed to make more sense to me if he was waiting in the upstairs hallway rather than following his father up the stairs and trying to turn that corner and aim the gun etc.

blood spatter analysis should prove where each shot was fired from tho i would guess.

They will be able to determine trajectory of the bullets too.

imoo
 
  • #677
IMO, those statistics are skewed, if only because they don't differentiate between legally owned guns, and illegal guns (how many of those children were killed by gun toting gang members?) All those children killed were NOT killed by lawful guns in their own homes.

I agree Soobs......they are skewed .....like most statistics.

imo
 
  • #678
i just finished reading this whole thread and I just can't believe that a 8 yr old could plan and do this all on his own. I watched the video before I read all the posts. When I first watched the video I felt that he was just telling the police what they wanted to hear. I worked in daycare for many many years. He sounded like a typical little 8 year old trying to get out of trouble by telling the authority figure what they wanted to hear.
Then after reading the posts about him having residue on his clothes and hands (is this actually documented?) I have had second thoughts. I just don't understand this at all.
 
  • #679
good question hailie, after reading everything available i do not think it is confirmed that he had gunshot residue on his clothes, but they told him they had his clothes and if he did fire a gun they would know, and that is when he first offers that he may have fired by accident i think. which then turns into i fired several shots at both but only to end their suffering.

i dont think they could test his hands because it wasnt until the next day that they considered him a suspect i believe. they suspected him of lying before that but they just thought he was scared and lying to cover for someone maybe. not lying to cover for himself.

the two biggest pieces of evidence right now imo are that he knew the victims were shot in the chest when he shouldnt have unless he was the shooter, and the phone call between tim and his wife.

things still to be confirmed;

residue on the boy's hands and or clothes.
no foreign or unexpected fingerprints on the murder weapon
no sign of anyone else in the house or forced entry.
no shots that appear to have been fired from someone much taller.
any sign of physical or other abuse.
motive.

im sure there is more but that is all i can think of right now.
 
  • #680
oops, i hope it wasnt me, i was trying hard to make sure i never used his actual name.
 
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