AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

[Ms Suzanne]

I believe the medical examiner was on the news the other day.If I heard him correctly he said none of the shots were at close range.I do not remember what channel this was on.

 

[colette]

I thought all shots were from a distance, except 2... and those most likely where the shots to the top of the head. As oceanblueeyes pointed out that youth gun had a long barrel not like a short barreled hand gun.

 

[Trino]

I believe the medical examiner was on the news the other day.If I heard him correctly he said none of the shots were at close range.I do not remember what channel this was on.

I think it depends on perspective. The report states the shots were fired from 2 - 2 1/2 feet away.

 

[chicagofa13]

Merry Christmas Bobbi!

I have to agree with the Romans' spokesman, Big John, when he has stated that the victims have been lost in this case and it has become more about the defendant.

Every human being on Earth has flaws and frailties. I am sure Tim and Vince had their own but that does not decrease their worthiness or that they were greatly loved and their loss is mourned by those who knew and loved them. I think of Tim Romans two daughters, who always had their daddy there for them. Now a chair will be empty this Christmas and forevermore. Death is so final but I certainly don't have to tell you that. You have felt that great loss and how it can be so devastating.

I think of the Romero family and how sad this Christmas will be for them. Their worlds have been shattered. Their husband/son/brother/uncle/nephew/cousin ripped from their lives in the most tragic way.

We don't even know if this boy will ever be tried for these crimes. We do know that he was able to spending both Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays with his mother. Neither Tim Romans' or Vincent Romero's families will ever be able to do the same. They are only able to visit a graveside. That's all both of these families are left with now and the wonderful memories that will forever be in their hearts, in that special place, that only Tim and Vince can hold.

imoo

ITA, well said.

And Happy Birthday OBE. :blowkiss:

 

[oceanblueeyes]

ITA, well said.

And Happy Birthday OBE. :blowkiss:

Thank you so much.

It has been a glorious, but non stop day and I am bone tired. lol

I hope everyone had a very nice Christmas filled with love, peace and joy.:blowkiss:

 

[MeoW333]

Thank you so much.

It has been a glorious, but non stop day and I am bone tired. lol

I hope everyone had a very nice Christmas filled with love, peace and joy.:blowkiss:

Happy Birthday & Merry Christmas, OBE! :blowkiss:

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I thought all shots were from a distance, except 2... and those most likely where the shots to the top of the head. As oceanblueeyes pointed out that youth gun had a long barrel not like a short barreled hand gun.

Happy Holidays to you!

Out of the four wounds of Vincent Romero three of the shots were fired at least a distance away of 2-2/12 feet and five of the six wounds for Tim Romans was at least the same distance away.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/n...-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

Pima County Pathologist Cynthia Porterfield wrote “Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing” for three of Romero’s gunshot wounds and five of Roman’s gunshot wounds.

But the close up shots (one each to both victims) was fired within a distance less than 2-2 1/2 feet. Since brain matter was found for each victim it wouldn't surprise me that the barrel of the gun was practically within inches of the head when the shooter fired.

That does increase the possibility that brain matter and other DNA evidence may be found at the end of the barrel of the rifle. Many times it can't even be seen with the naked eye but will show up when forensically tested.

Thank you so much MeoW. I hope you had a lovely day today.

imoo

 

[azmama]

I don't think it sets a good example allowing him out at all. I know, kids probably aren't following this case, but commit a crime and spend the holidays at home? Not good.

I agree with the example it may set, but my kids are news hounds, and they do not know about this case, and we are in AZ.


More than the "example" it shows kids though, it is illegal in AZ to hold him longer than 45 days....I have never heard of a judge "stopping the clock" before.

I have held back for these 3 threads so far, not wanting to be long winded, but living in a small isolated town like St. Johns is and also so near the res, things are very very very different, I have seen so many comments on these threads about things that have happened in this case, and the way things "should be done", but if you have never lived in close proximity to a reservation, and had res police etc involved, you have no idea the the stuff that can go on, as well as the lifestyles lived in these areas.

jmho

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I agree with the example it may set, but my kids are news hounds, and they do not know about this case, and we are in AZ.


More than the "example" it shows kids though, it is illegal in AZ to hold him longer than 45 days....I have never heard of a judge "stopping the clock" before.

I have held back for these 3 threads so far, not wanting to be long winded, but living in a small isolated town like St. Johns is and also so near the res, things are very very very different, I have seen so many comments on these threads about things that have happened in this case, and the way things "should be done", but if you have never lived in close proximity to a reservation, and had res police etc involved, you have no idea the the stuff that can go on, as well as the lifestyles lived in these areas.

jmho

Azmama, if you wouldn't mind, could you please share what it is like where you live? I am waaay over on the Eastcoast and I do not have a clue as to what it is like where you are. We may be living in the US, but every state/town has it's living ways and culture. Would you mind, please? I would so very much appreciate it.

OL

 

[azmama]

Well, I was typing this long description, but I had my dh read it and he said I should just tell you that on the reservation, it is basically a land of lawlessness. I would never feel safe and secure in the information obtained by law enforcement from the res, it is sketchy at best, downright corrupt in reality. I do not deem it a reliable source.

I have lived in close proximity (<10 miles my whole life) to a reservation. Even many of the Indians will tell you this same thing, *of course, this is my personal experience*.

Also, those small isolated towns up around there, and in other parts of AZ have their "own rules" and while the laws are known, and officially enforced, it would drop your jaw to find out things that happen in those towns and courts, just truly unbelievable.

I know this may be an unpopular sentiment, but from the moment this crime took place, it was doomed to a botched investigation, period.

 

[Chargergal]

Well, I was typing this long description, but I had my dh read it and he said I should just tell you that on the reservation, it is basically a land of lawlessness. I would never feel safe and secure in the information obtained by law enforcement from the res, it is sketchy at best, downright corrupt in reality. I do not deem it a reliable source.

I have lived in close proximity (<10 miles my whole life) to a reservation. Even many of the Indians will tell you this same thing, *of course, this is my personal experience*.

Also, those small isolated towns up around there, and in other parts of AZ have their "own rules" and while the laws are known, and officially enforced, it would drop your jaw to find out things that happen in those towns and courts, just truly unbelievable.

I know this may be an unpopular sentiment, but from the moment this crime took place, it was doomed to a botched investigation, period.

I am also a Arizonian...my husband was a county Sheriff in a small town here (Pinal County), although we now live in the BIG city. St John's has been very well known for its police and political corruption. I will look for related articles. It is also a town known for its drug use (particularly meth) and low economic status. It is kind of a town that is off the beaten highway...not just a pass through town. Also it is close to the reservation and unfortunately the reservation communities are known for the lawlessness (?). Of course they try to work with the local LE.

 

[azmama]

Thanks for your comments Chargergal, it is nice to hear another AZ person's opinion on my views of those areas.

If you wanted more info OrdinaryLife, we can talk, I don't want to post too much stuff not directly case related on here, I don't know the rules on that. I am happy to share info though.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I am also a Arizonian...my husband was a county Sheriff in a small town here (Pinal County), although we now live in the BIG city. St John's has been very well known for its police and political corruption. I will look for related articles. It is also a town known for its drug use (particularly meth) and low economic status. It is kind of a town that is off the beaten highway...not just a pass through town. Also it is close to the reservation and unfortunately the reservation communities are known for the lawlessness (?). Of course they try to work with the local LE.

Thank you for the information.

I also live in a smaller rural town. We are very fortunate and have fine police departments. We also have drug problems here like many counties in the US, especially because the county is very rural and it has resulted in some of the biggest drug bust in our surrounding area.

But it seems that St. Johns is very typical of other smaller cities but they do seem to be keeping up with other cities. Is the St. Johns police department a city police department or are they from the reservation? Is the police from the reservation involved with these crimes? I am a little confused about that or if these are city and county police.

In this link it says the medium household income in St. Johns is: Estimated median household income in 2007: $46,061 (it was $35,215 in 2000)

St. Johns: $46,061
Arizona: $49,889
http://www.city-data.com/city/St.-Johns-Arizona.html

The median household income in the USA is: Real median household income remained unchanged between 2002 and 2003 at $43,318.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/002484.html

Wasn't Tim from another reservation 170 miles away from St.Johns?

imoo

 

[MeoW333]

I don't think any reservation police are involved at all.

 

[Chargergal]

I don't think any reservation police are involved at all.

Apache County Sheriff's Office
San Carlos Police (Reservation)
St. John's Police Department
Arizona Department of Public Safety (DPS)

All of the departments have had a hand in this investigation. I don't believe the Reservation police have been involved other than regarding Tm's background information because I understand his prior drug conviction and related time served was on the reservation.
ACSO has a history of corruption

Yes St. John's is a typical small town, unfortunately it's once again thrown into public scrutinty with this horrific crime...a crime they are ill prepared to deal with...most likely any large town would feel the same limitations because of this boy's age. It is also surrounded by reservations. San Carlos, Gallup, Kyenta, Tuba City, etc. I believe what AZmama was trying to say this is unique to Arizona and the southwest. I am from California and there are many small towns in California and I don't recall this there. I am not familiar with other states so I cannot comment on that.

One has to ask, why is judge Roca making up the rules as he goes along? The state of Arizona states the a juvenile must be adjudicated with 45 days and the judge just stops the clock? I'm sure we can all say that this is most likely in the best interest of the boy.

Statistically, you are not comparing apples to apples with the median household income numbers. In statistics you must have a similiar sampling. There are over 3 million people in Arizona and 4000 in St.Johns. The difference between the have and the have not are tremendous in this small town. In St. John's there are no Scottsdales, Chandlers, etc. all of which are more affluent neighborhoods.

 

[SoobsinMI]

One has to ask, why is judge Roca making up the rules as he goes along? The state of Arizona states the a juvenile must be adjudicated with 45 days and the judge just stops the clock? I'm sure we can all say that this is most likely in the best interest of the boy.

I don't believe the judge is making up the rules as he goes along. This is part of the quandry, IMO. Judge Roca has ordered evaluations to make sure that the child is competent to stand trial. That isn't making it up as he goes along. He doesn't want to make ANY decisions on the case, if the child isn't competent. The problem is that AZ law does NOT take this into account - the law states that they have 45 days. This is just another reason why the system isn't set up for this particular crime and defendant.

 

[Chargergal]

I don't believe the judge is making up the rules as he goes along. This is part of the quandry, IMO. Judge Roca has ordered evaluations to make sure that the child is competent to stand trial. That isn't making it up as he goes along. He doesn't want to make ANY decisions on the case, if the child isn't competent. The problem is that AZ law does NOT take this into account - the law states that they have 45 days. This is just another reason why the system isn't set up for this particular crime and defendant.

Actually the court appointed psychologist has already made his decision that the boy is not competent to stand trial. I absolutely agree our justice system is not set up to handle a defendant of this age and he is not "using the set of rules set out by the state". There is a reason there are time limits on juvenile cases, it is in the best interestof the child, however most aren't charged with double murder. Personally I would rather this thing run its course of action whatever timeframe that is for the best interest of the child.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't believe the judge is making up the rules as he goes along. This is part of the quandary, IMO. Judge Roca has ordered evaluations to make sure that the child is competent to stand trial. That isn't making it up as he goes along. He doesn't want to make ANY decisions on the case, if the child isn't competent. The problem is that AZ law does NOT take this into account - the law states that they have 45 days. This is just another reason why the system isn't set up for this particular crime and defendant.

You are totally correct, Soobs. I would think this case is one of the most complex in Arizona history. Maybe even in the entire US.

This is plainly an adult like crime and very different, than probably any other juvenile case, tried in AZ. It only takes 45 days in the juvenile system, because 99.9% of the time that is all that is needed, for a non violent or petty offense, which is why the juvenile system was established in the first place. But here we are talking about double homicides that have loads of evidence that has to be forensically tested.

I believe in an adult court the defendant has a right to a speedy trial and it has to happen within 180 days. That is ample time alloted for forensic and ballistic testing to come back. But here the court has three dilemmas. 1. the age competency has yet to be determined. 2. the charges of premeditated double homicides. 3. complex forensic testing and results.

But Judge Roca must know first if the boy is age competent before he can go forward.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Actually the court appointed psychologist has already made his decision that the boy is not competent to stand trial. I absolutely agree our justice system is not set up to handle a defendant of this age and he is not "using the set of rules set out by the state". There is a reason there are time limits on juvenile cases, it is in the best interest of the child, however most aren't charged with double murder. Personally I would rather this thing run its course of action whatever time frame that is for the best interest of the child.

I thought Cady was selected by the defense and Judge Roca excepted that.

Are they three evaluators? I know Brewer picked his and the State picked theirs and the Judge agreed with both choices.

What is the name of the court appointed psychologist? I missed their name somewhere along the way, I guess.

TIA


imoo

 

[MeoW333]

Apache County Sheriff's Office
San Carlos Police (Reservation)
St. John's Police Department
Arizona Department of Public Safety (DPS)

All of the departments have had a hand in this investigation. I don't believe the Reservation police have been involved other than regarding Tm's background information because I understand his prior drug conviction and related time served was on the reservation.
ACSO has a history of corruption

Yes St. John's is a typical small town, unfortunately it's once again thrown into public scrutinty with this horrific crime...a crime they are ill prepared to deal with...most likely any large town would feel the same limitations because of this boy's age. It is also surrounded by reservations. San Carlos, Gallup, Kyenta, Tuba City, etc. I believe what AZmama was trying to say this is unique to Arizona and the southwest. I am from California and there are many small towns in California and I don't recall this there. I am not familiar with other states so I cannot comment on that.

One has to ask, why is judge Roca making up the rules as he goes along? The state of Arizona states the a juvenile must be adjudicated with 45 days and the judge just stops the clock? I'm sure we can all say that this is most likely in the best interest of the boy.

Statistically, you are not comparing apples to apples with the median household income numbers. In statistics you must have a similiar sampling. There are over 3 million people in Arizona and 4000 in St.Johns. The difference between the have and the have not are tremendous in this small town. In St. John's there are no Scottsdales, Chandlers, etc. all of which are more affluent neighborhoods.

Should we be questioning the work of the small town police? We already seen the shoddy questioning of the boy. They should have checked every angle and not just focused completely on the boy. Where is Tiffany? We've not heard a peep from her; only in her friend's blog she was partying..

If the boy is guilty, then i'm sure the police could have used better tactic in catching their killer.