AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

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  • #581
It saddens me so many people want this boy to be innocent at any costs that they are willing to throw these victims under the bus. Even if they were horrible people (which I don't believe they were), they don't deserve to be gunned down. That is not what our society is about. And if that's where we are heading, God help us, it's the wrong road. If the evidence shows this kid did it, and I believe it will, then he deserves punishment, not a "time out" for bad behavior.
 
  • #582
I am just not sure if anything could be made mandatory.

I also read and can't remember where now, that his mother has a five year old daughter and is in the process of getting a divorce.

As a mother I would feel very uncomfortable allowing this boy to live around my five year old daughter if he had had no treatment at all.

Personally, I don't think Vincent Romero ever saw any hint that this was coming. So if this boy is good at hiding his true feelings then I find that scary as well.

imoo

But, as an attorney, I am fairly sure. CPS can become re-involved in a case at any time. All that is needed is is the finding that the child would be at great risk of harm without state intervention. If the mother could not or would not provide services this child may need, then then state could take custody. I can see, OceanBlueEyes, that you are very insistent that this child is guilty and likely murdered not due to any abuse of any kind, but because he is a little, budding sociopath and that thus, there is no remedy but incarceration, possibly an extremely lengthy incarceration after being charged as an adult.
On the other hand, I, like some others here, believe that if this little boy is guilty, no matter the reason, there are other options that may better serve to help this child to become a productive and healthy human. Intensive psych help for his still developing brain is my suggestion.
 
  • #583
I do respect your opinion OBE, and neither of us are going to convince the other...I agree it would be a shame for him to walk *if* indeed he did as they said, planned, executed etc, but the "evidence" does not lead me to the same conclusion as yours, I have not seen any solid evidence that shows he is guilty.

Unfortunately, my judgment may be clouded since I still have small children and my boys are close to the age of this boy.

We will just have to wait and see:-)

I respect any differing opinion from mine and certainly yours, azmama. I perfectly understand why so many do not want him to be guilty of this crime. It is one of the most brutal homicide cases I have seen in quite awhile.

I have grandsons around his age and I can remember my loving son at this age but over the many years of being on message boards I have learned to try to put my own emotions aside and try to deal just with the case itself.

I am sure you absolutely do see it differently than I do and I respect that. That is why people come to discuss a case here and give opinions and they never are 100% for one side or the other. There is always a majority opinion and a minority opinion. In the end sometimes the majority had it wrong and sometimes the minority opinion was wrong. Time will tell in this case, I guess.

I really wish I didn't feel he was guilty of all of this. I really do, but I cannot pretend that I see it that way, when I don't. I would much rather your opinion be correct than mine, any day.

I am so afraid that it will wind up being justice denied and that bothers me greatly. No one should be above the law. Not even this boy. To just walk away is like saying Tim and Vinny never existed or counted and their deaths won't even be validated. THAT eats at me and I hold my breath praying for some kind of justice to be rendered in this case for these two men.

I am beginning to understand why the DA wants to dismiss one charge. If the Judge does not, then this boy's own father will be denied justice, along with Tim Romans. I really do believe that Tim came to the aide of this boy that day. I think he was trying so hard to reach the house and to know he was brutally slain doing so, is almost too hard to comprehend.

I do want to take this time to thank you for being so nice when you debate this tragic case. It is nice to converse with understanding on both sides.

Happy New Year, azmama! I hope 2009 is a great year for you and your family. Bright Blessings to you all.

Ocean
 
  • #584
Fran,

This whole case doesn't just hinge on the boy's confession. If that is taken out we will still have many other things that will tell a story. When all of the evidence comes back...when they figure out how tall the person was who did the shooting..there will be fingerprints on the gun and shells just lots of other things to look at. The boy's clothing might also tell a story and his shoes. There are just many other things involved in this case. We just don't know what LE has found out yet because of the gag order. They could have evidence galore or maybe none at all...we have no way of knowing.

This boy made a statement to CPS that made me believe that he had something to do with the murders but I can't remember what it was. I believe he asked a question maybe about having to go to juvie now but not sure. CPS wouldn't have been questioning him about the murders as far as I know.
 
  • #585
But, as an attorney, I am fairly sure. CPS can become re-involved in a case at any time. All that is needed is is the finding that the child would be at great risk of harm without state intervention. If the mother could not or would not provide services this child may need, then then state could take custody. I can see, OceanBlueEyes, that you are very insistent that this child is guilty and likely murdered not due to any abuse of any kind, but because he is a little, budding sociopath and that thus, there is no remedy but incarceration, possibly an extremely lengthy incarceration after being charged as an adult.
On the other hand, I, like some others here, believe that if this little boy is guilty, no matter the reason, there are other options that may better serve to help this child to become a productive and healthy human. Intensive psych help for his still developing brain is my suggestion.

I, too, have extensively followed this case and am convinced the boy is guilty. If the evaluation shows the boy is incompetent to stand trial, one can only hope the court will find options rather than simply sending him home.

Several questions linger in my mind. With whom will the boy live and where? How will he interact in social situations, i.e. especially where will he attend school w/o his past following him? Is Eryn able to manage a job, the boy, another child, and a possible second divorce? What happens if the boy does not benefit from psych help?
 
  • #586
It saddens me so many people want this boy to be innocent at any costs that they are willing to throw these victims under the bus. Even if they were horrible people (which I don't believe they were), they don't deserve to be gunned down. That is not what our society is about. And if that's where we are heading, God help us, it's the wrong road. If the evidence shows this kid did it, and I believe it will, then he deserves punishment, not a "time out" for bad behavior.

I would love for this child to be innocent, but not any cost. Not at the cost of truth. That just would not help. I also feel horrible for the victims and their families. I just feel that either way, this little boy is one of those victims. I think the evidence is pretty strong that this kid did it. I am not 100% sure, but close. However, the act of killing does not automatically cause a child to become a cold-blooded adult. He is a child. Period. He has the still developing brain of a child. He cannot forsee consequences as an adult does, due to lack of development in his frontal lobe. He cannot control impulses in the manner that adults can, also due to lack of development of his frontal lobe. If sociopathic, I linked to research that evidences that child psychopaths (same as sociopaths or kids with conduct disorders), CAN be treated, as their brains are still developing, unlike adults. However, I have not seen ONE case of a child near this age who killed his parent(s) and was diagnosed as a sociopath. Again, overwhelmingly, children, even older children who commit patricide, have suffered some form of egregious abuse. In a minority of cases, it appears they were children who just snapped either due to a mental issue or an inability to foresee consequences or control impulse. I have not heard of one case where a child who killed his parents was diagnosed as a sociopath (or any derivative thereof). I'm sure one exists but I have yet to see it, which must mean something.
Should there then be punishment for a child who kills? Remember, an 8 year old is only supposed to be on time-out for EIGHT MINUTES. That is because, an 8 year old will begin to forget why he is on time-out and/or the punishment loses meaning/effectiveness after a larger length of time. Again, this is due to the childish perception of child for whom a year is an eternity. So, do you think incarcerating this boy in a prison with older children (as there are not man little kids in jail), or isolating him from the rest of the prisoners, for years, is going to effectively punish this child? Or, is it meant to act as a societal deterrance for all those other little homicidal 8 year olds, because after all, they read the news at that age, right! (Saracasm intended). (Also, if he is a sociopath, it would not help at all. Such a kid would not be effect one bit by incarceration. He'd just turn into another Manson or Joseph Duncan, both of whom were incarcerated fro long periods as minors).
This is a child, therefore there is hope. He needs years of intensive mental health treatment, probably years of in-patient care. This will help understand what went wrong and will allow him to eventually understand the seriousness of what he has done, which, once he realizes it, could cause him to lose his mind. The competency rules, juvenile court and laws against putting minors to death, for example, are on the books for a reason, folks. And it's not because some crazy liberals created those laws. It is because we, as a society, understand that children are simply not the same as adults.
 
  • #587
But, as an attorney, I am fairly sure. CPS can become re-involved in a case at any time. All that is needed is is the finding that the child would be at great risk of harm without state intervention. If the mother could not or would not provide services this child may need, then then state could take custody. I can see, OceanBlueEyes, that you are very insistent that this child is guilty and likely murdered not due to any abuse of any kind, but because he is a little, budding sociopath and that thus, there is no remedy but incarceration, possibly an extremely lengthy incarceration after being charged as an adult.
On the other hand, I, like some others here, believe that if this little boy is guilty, no matter the reason, there are other options that may better serve to help this child to become a productive and healthy human. Intensive psych help for his still developing brain is my suggestion.

That is not true. I have continually stated that I think he has no mental defect.

I have no clue why he did this. I really don't think anyone here does. I do know that children this age can give into compulsiveness, impulsiveness and can overreact if they become frustrated about something. But as far as what his motives were that has not been determined but I do think he premeditated this before he carried them out.

I have never said that he will be tried as an adult. I think he will be tried in the juvenile system, if tried at all and even if Judge Roca does dismiss one count and he is charged later, I believe his time of incarceration if found guilty at that time, will follow the sentencing guidelines of the juvenile system since he was 8 at the time of the crimes.

Yes, it is my opinion at this time that he is guilty of these crimes.

As far as I am aware there is no mandatory on anything. Certainly not civil commitment imo since I do not believe he suffers from any mental defect, that would qualify that he be institutionalized but I am also under the impression that the courts cannot mandate that he get mental treatment at all, if the case is not going to go forward and closed with prejudice. I hope I am wrong on that impression though.

imoo
 
  • #588
I would love for this child to be innocent, but not any cost. Not at the cost of truth. That just would not help. I also feel horrible for the victims and their families. I just feel that either way, this little boy is one of those victims. I think the evidence is pretty strong that this kid did it. I am not 100% sure, but close. However, the act of killing does not automatically cause a child to become a cold-blooded adult. He is a child. Period. He has the still developing brain of a child. He cannot forsee consequences as an adult does, due to lack of development in his frontal lobe. He cannot control impulses in the manner that adults can, also due to lack of development of his frontal lobe. If sociopathic, I linked to research that evidences that child psychopaths (same as sociopaths or kids with conduct disorders), CAN be treated, as their brains are still developing, unlike adults. However, I have not seen ONE case of a child near this age who killed his parent(s) and was diagnosed as a sociopath. Again, overwhelmingly, children, even older children who commit patricide, have suffered some form of egregious abuse. In a minority of cases, it appears they were children who just snapped either due to a mental issue or an inability to foresee consequences or control impulse. I have not heard of one case where a child who killed his parents was diagnosed as a sociopath (or any derivative thereof). I'm sure one exists but I have yet to see it, which must mean something.
Should there then be punishment for a child who kills? Remember, an 8 year old is only supposed to be on time-out for EIGHT MINUTES. That is because, an 8 year old will begin to forget why he is on time-out and/or the punishment loses meaning/effectiveness after a larger length of time. Again, this is due to the childish perception of child for whom a year is an eternity. So, do you think incarcerating this boy in a prison with older children (as there are not man little kids in jail), or isolating him from the rest of the prisoners, for years, is going to effectively punish this child? Or, is it meant to act as a societal deterrance for all those other little homicidal 8 year olds, because after all, they read the news at that age, right! (Saracasm intended). (Also, if he is a sociopath, it would not help at all. Such a kid would not be effect one bit by incarceration. He'd just turn into another Manson or Joseph Duncan, both of whom were incarcerated fro long periods as minors).
This is a child, therefore there is hope. He needs years of intensive mental health treatment, probably years of in-patient care. This will help understand what went wrong and will allow him to eventually understand the seriousness of what he has done, which, once he realizes it, could cause him to lose his mind. The competency rules, juvenile court and laws against putting minors to death, for example, are on the books for a reason, folks. And it's not because some crazy liberals created those laws. It is because we, as a society, understand that children are simply not the same as adults.

I appreciate your expertise.

One thing, I see several people saying he can't understand, won't remember why this was wrong, etc. Then some of the same people say he will be traumatized for LIFE, his LIFE will be ruined. Ok, IMO they can't have it both ways. Either he is 8, and can only remember why he is in trouble for 8 minutes, or he will be ruined. Which is it?

Don't want to forget the LIFE of his father and roommate are ruined forever. As well as the lives of their families.
 
  • #589
  • #590
I appreciate your expertise. One thing, I see several people saying he can't understand, won't remember why this was wrong, etc. Then some of the same people say he will be traumatized for LIFE, his LIFE will be ruined. Ok, IMO they can't have it both ways. Either he is 8, and can only remember why he is in trouble for 8 minutes, or he will be ruined. Which is it? Don't want to forget the LIFE of his father and roommate are ruined forever. As well as the lives of their families.

He may not understand why now, but I don't think others will allow him to forget. Therapy, itself, will remind him over several years why he is there. There will be no regular school? Will there be childhood, teen friends?

Like others, I don't know what should be done with the boy, but I do feel he should be punished somehow.
 
  • #591
I appreciate your expertise.

One thing, I see several people saying he can't understand, won't remember why this was wrong, etc. Then some of the same people say he will be traumatized for LIFE, his LIFE will be ruined. Ok, IMO they can't have it both ways. Either he is 8, and can only remember why he is in trouble for 8 minutes, or he will be ruined. Which is it?

Don't want to forget the LIFE of his father and roommate are ruined forever. As well as the lives of their families.

Children witness and are scarred by trauma all the time, but it takes years for them to understand the event. You can suffer trauma without understanding. Take, for example, the case I read of a 3 year old child who witnessed her mom being hog-tied, raped and stabbed to death, before the 3 year old girl had her own throat slit. She had no understanding of what really happened but was horribly traumtized, acting out repeatedly in therapy how she tried to give her dead mom food and water, tried to get her to "wake up". This kid was sickened by the taste or sight of milk for the rest of her life because as she milled around the house for hours with a slit throat, trying to wake mommy, she eventually got thristy and drank some milk which immediately spilled out the slit in her throat. Did this kid understand mommy had been killed and would never wake again? No. Did she know that her throat was broken and that she had been left to die? No. But, she was traumatized. As far as a kid not remembering what he or she did after too long, please re-read my words. That is not what I said. What they may forget is why they were being punished. They remember the bad act but will no longer connect it to an excessively long punishment. They cannot connect two events for that long, because their brains are not developed. But my point is not that a child who commits an extremely bad act will forget what he is being punsihed for. Killing another is not something anyone, kid or not, forgets. Instead, my point was that given such a young age, the punishment ceases being proportional to the crime merely due to their immature brain development. A year in jail would be like 10 to an adult. 10 years would be 100. And, since very small children lack the maturity to develop intent, a 10 year sentence would eventually be equivalent to being punished for 100 years for something a completely different person did. The adult is not the teen is not the child. The brain changes so much every 7 years that, other than core genetic and personality traits, a person changes immensely every 7 years.
I know most of this from psych, child psych and child development classes. I was a pre-school teacher and daycare director for kids of all ages, for years before I became a lawyer.
The "time out" example, was only an example of how the kind of punishment normally meted out to an adult for a certain act is not appropriate for a child.
 
  • #592
That is not true. I have continually stated that I think he has no mental defect.

I have no clue why he did this. I really don't think anyone here does. I do know that children this age can give into compulsiveness, impulsiveness and can overreact if they become frustrated about something. But as far as what his motives were that has not been determined but I do think he premeditated this before he carried them out.

I have never said that he will be tried as an adult. I think he will be tried in the juvenile system, if tried at all and even if Judge Roca does dismiss one count and he is charged later, I believe his time of incarceration if found guilty at that time, will follow the sentencing guidelines of the juvenile system since he was 8 at the time of the crimes.

Yes, it is my opinion at this time that he is guilty of these crimes.

As far as I am aware there is no mandatory on anything. Certainly not civil commitment imo since I do not believe he suffers from any mental defect, that would qualify that he be institutionalized but I am also under the impression that the courts cannot mandate that he get mental treatment at all, if the case is not going to go forward and closed with prejudice. I hope I am wrong on that impression though.

imoo

Mental defect is a legal term that has to do with biological defects. Sociopathy is a personality disorder, not considered a mental illness. It's really just a fancy term for evil. From reading your posts, my sense has been that is what you feel is the root of this tragedy. Also, I never said that you believe the child will be tried as an adult. It is clear that you don't think that will happen. What I said and what also seems clear from your posts is that you may think that the boy should be tried as an adult.
If I'm wrong, I apologize.
 
  • #593
A year in jail would be like 10 to an adult. 10 years would be 100. And, since very small children lack the maturity to develop intent, a 10 year sentence would eventually be equivalent to being punished for 100 years for something a completely different person did.


How much time is justified for killing two people? Is 100 years enough?

You mention a "completely different" person. Yes and no. He's changed mentally, but has he really? (Only time will tell.) An adult who is sentenced to life at age 20 would also be a different person at 30, would he/she not? Should we let everyone out of jail, based on a "completely different" person analysis?
 
  • #594
Mental defect is a legal term that has to do with biological defects. Sociopathy is a personality disorder, not considered a mental illness. It's really just a fancy term for evil. From reading your posts, my sense has been that is what you feel is the root of this tragedy. Also, I never said that you believe the child will be tried as an adult. It is clear that you don't think that will happen. What I said and what also seems clear from your posts is that you may think that the boy should be tried as an adult.
If I'm wrong, I apologize.

No, I have never said I think he should be tried as an adult but there is no apology needed. I don't have a clue what the root cause was concerning this tragedy. I did say, however; when the DA filed his motion to dismiss count one that he wanted to try him when he became of age to be tried as an adult. I believe that age is 15 in AZ.

I do think he should be tried later, especially if this case comes to a stop now but under the juvenile sentencing guidelines, if found guilty. Which imo is quite a deal for murdering two individuals. I don't believe that he will ever be tried for Romans' murder if Judge Roca finds him age incompetent to stand trial and thinks there is no need for a reevaluation in 8 months. The Judge could dismiss both cases with prejudice. I pray that he doesn't do that.

I do not agree though that he should only receive therapy and receive no punishment for his dastardly deeds. That sends a message that the age of the defendant can determine if murder victims get justice or they don't.

imoo
 
  • #595
How much time is justified for killing two people? Is 100 years enough?

You mention a "completely different" person. Yes and no. He's changed mentally, but has he really? (Only time will tell.) An adult who is sentenced to life at age 20 would also be a different person at 30, would he/she not? Should we let everyone out of jail, based on a "completely different" person analysis?

Doesn't that depend on the circumstances? For example, death may be justified for a pedophile raping and killing two children. But in the case of the mother out here in CA who killed her son's alleged molester after he continually smirked at her son causing him to vomit from fear during the trial, perhaps no time would be justified. I'm not sure what happened in the case we are discussing or why it happened so I can't really say what would be justified but from the little I know, namely that the accused was 8 at the time of the killings, I acutally do not think ANY punishment in the normal sense would be justified. That's because punishment is for two main reasons: One, to deter the perpetrator from doing the act again and two, to deter society from committing similar acts. This child cannot form intent as an adult can. His reasoning for doing and understanding what he did (if guilty) is not the same as an adult or older child. Are you really saying that 100 years incarceration is justified for an 8 year old who took two lives when he had not yet reached maturity? This kid needs help, not punishment. Punishing him may tell him that killing is wrong, but he knew that. Also, it won't deter any other kid as they do not follow the news or criminal cases.
A huge reason for incarcerating people is not to punish them, but to protect society. Incarcerating this kid will not protect us it will make the boy more of a danger as it does nothing to address whatever went so horribly wrong in the first place.
 
  • #596
Gitana, I wasn't saying you so much as others seem to want it both ways. Was just using your 'time out' example. Great to have a real lawyer here since I just play one in my comfy chair. :)
 
  • #597
Doesn't that depend on the circumstances? For example, death may be justified for a pedophile raping and killing two children. But in the case of the mother out here in CA who killed her son's alleged molester after he continually smirked at her son causing him to vomit from fear during the trial, perhaps no time would be justified. I'm not sure what happened in the case we are discussing or why it happened so I can't really say what would be justified but from the little I know, namely that the accused was 8 at the time of the killings, I actually do not think ANY punishment in the normal sense would be justified. That's because punishment is for two main reasons: One, to deter the perpetrator from doing the act again and two, to deter society from committing similar acts. This child cannot form intent as an adult can. His reasoning for doing and understanding what he did (if guilty) is not the same as an adult or older child. Are you really saying that 100 years incarceration is justified for an 8 year old who took two lives when he had not yet reached maturity? This kid needs help, not punishment. Punishing him may tell him that killing is wrong, but he knew that. Also, it won't deter any other kid as they do not follow the news or criminal cases.
A huge reason for incarcerating people is not to punish them, but to protect society. Incarcerating this kid will not protect us it will make the boy more of a danger as it does nothing to address whatever went so horribly wrong in the first place.

The juvenile system is established for both. Punishment and rehabilitation which includes mental therapy and counseling.

May I ask, are you a defense attorney? Just curious.

imoo
 
  • #598
This kid was a hunter. He knew what he was doing. He planned it, and finished the men off with point blank shots to the top of the head. The murders were cold blooded. That's why it is hard for many of us to find sympathy for this kid. He is worried about getting his skate board back or making statements about how his dad won't be needing his cell phone anymore. Then there is the how I put them "out of their misery" statements, oh those must have been the shots to the top of the head.... IMO it's only a matter of time before he commits more crimes.
He is not like your son, grandson or most any child you know.
 
  • #599
We don't know anything about this child's mental state before the murders or since. We do not know what has transpired since his "confession" nor what may have driven him to kill - if he did. It's clear that most folks posting on this forum have their minds made up about what may or may not have happened that day. Personally, I respect all opinions, but let's not jump to conclusions either way. There's a LOT we do not know about this case. I am more than willing to give this child the benefit of the doubt - even with the confession. There's a reason the AZ court system is not designed to handle this case. I doubt there's a court in the US that would be!
 
  • #600
I really wish I didn't feel he was guilty of all of this. I really do, but I cannot pretend that I see it that way, when I don't. I would much rather your opinion be correct than mine, any day.

I am so afraid that it will wind up being justice denied and that bothers me greatly. No one should be above the law. Not even this boy. To just walk away is like saying Tim and Vinny never existed or counted and their deaths won't even be validated. THAT eats at me and I hold my breath praying for some kind of justice to be rendered in this case for these two men.

I am beginning to understand why the DA wants to dismiss one charge. If the Judge does not, then this boy's own father will be denied justice, along with Tim Romans. I really do believe that Tim came to the aide of this boy that day. I think he was trying so hard to reach the house and to know he was brutally slain doing so, is almost too hard to comprehend.

I do want to take this time to thank you for being so nice when you debate this tragic case. It is nice to converse with understanding on both sides.

Happy New Year, azmama! I hope 2009 is a great year for you and your family. Bright Blessings to you all.

Ocean



Thank you, OBE, I am a terrible debater, lol, it is hard for me as I am such an agreeable person, to understand such controversy, and then as of now really NOT knowing the truth! I also think it will be a travesty if Tim and Vinny never receive justice, that would be a very sad day indeed.

I love reading all of yours (and everyone elses) thoughts/ideas/feelings/expertise on this case and the others, I think that is why I was drawn to this board.

Thank you for the warm wishes for 2009 and I wish you and your family the same.
I am especially thankful when I am reminded of what can happen in society that I have such a loving and happy family. (wow, that sounds sticky sweet, especially in light of their behaviour last night, waiting for midnight to send them all to bed!) lol

Thank you for aknowledging my point of view, I appreciate it. Takecare!:)
 
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