AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

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  • #221
You cannot compare any of the prior cases with this child. The King brothers murdered their father, but there was some very important issues concerning a friend of their father's, Chavis, who was a child molester and in fact had a sexual relationship with one of the boys.

Skakel was 15-16 years old concerning the Moxley case, was diagnosed with dyslexia, mother died of cancer, and his father an alcoholic. He had been under suspicion for years before he was finally taken to trial. Pittman was being over treated with Zoloft (200 mg at the age of 12!) for mild depression. All these cases involve prior life circumstances let alone the age of these people. That is not the case with this 8 year old child as we know now and as many have argued about this child.


Pittman was ticked off at his grandma and grandpa. They tried to use the Zoloft defense but it didn't work. He had just been to church the same night that he murdered his grandparents. He didn't seem bothered at all over killing the two people that really loved him. I believe he had gotten into some trouble that night...at home...too. I watched the trial but have seen so many I forget the exact details but I know that the Zoloft defense didn't float.
 
  • #222
Instead of just thinking of the boy...if he is guilty...I can put myself in the wives places. Especially Mrs. Romans. As far as she knew...as far as we know...she thought she had a good marriage. They had been married for years and had two teen aged daughters. One second she is talking on the phone with her husband and the next he is dead...gone forever. How would I feel. I would want justice for my husband who just happened to be at that home when this boy..if he did it...decided to eleminate his father along with my husband. I wouldn't want the system to just let this boy loose with no punishment at all. Everyone should have to pay the consequences of their actions whether they are 8 yrs or 80 yrs. I would be so angry if there was no justice for my husband and this boy is allowed to just walk away like nothing happend. He knows right from wrong and he knew the two guys were dead after he shot them...or so he said. The boy isn't the only one involved in this case. There are two dead men and one is his father. The other is someone who just happened to be there at the home.

Personally, I think...if this boy is proven guilty by the evidence...he should be placed in detention or some place for younger kids until he is old enough to stand trial. No way should the charges all be dropped. The system should come up with a solution for this case instead of wringing their hands and saying "we don't know what to do with this boy." Figure it out fellows. Change the law to where he can be charged when he is older.

We should be concerned for the boy but lets not forget that two men are dead...two wives became widows, two girls lost their father, two sets of parents lost their sons, the men no doubt had brothers and sisters, nieces and nephews, etc. Look at all of the people whose lives will never be the same after that horrible day.
 
  • #223
Guys, hearsay is an out of court statement offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted. Federal Rules of Evidence section 801 (c). In other words, it is any statement made outside of the court proceedings that is now being discussed in court in order to show that what was being uttered (not "uddered", LOL!) is true. It can be confusing, however, because the matter asserted could be other than a statement. An example of classic hearsay would be if the defense puts on testimony from someone who said he heard someone else say, before trial that the Defendant "is innocent. He was not even there on the day of the crime." The defense would be offering that out of court statement to prove that indeed, the defendant was not there and is innocent. So, it would be hearsay. In this case, the statement potentially offered here, "Tim, something's wrong with my dad", would be offered not to prove that something was wrong with the dad, but instead, that the child was there before Tim died. If it was a statement uttered by someone other than the child and if I was the attorney wanting the statement in, I would argue that it is not hearsay because the truth of the matter asserted was not what I was offering the statement for. But, let's say the statement was offered to show that the dad was hurt before Tim died and that the kid said this (and was thus there at the scene). If said by someone other than the child, it would be considered hearsay. But, none of that matters here because any statement by the child would NOT be hearsay as it is considered an "admission" by a party, the kid. Any statements made by a party to the case, (here, the defendant), is considered an "admission" and is not classified as hearsay. It falls under the state equivalent of Federal Rules of Evidence section 801 (d) (2). I probably confused things even more! Sorry. Point is, the statement comes in.

Thanks, you are very good at explaining!!! :)

Ima
 
  • #224
Instead of just thinking of the boy...if he is guilty...I can put myself in the wives places. Especially Mrs. Romans. As far as she knew...as far as we know...she thought she had a good marriage. They had been married for years and had two teen aged daughters. One second she is talking on the phone with her husband and the next he is dead...gone forever. How would I feel. I would want justice for my husband who just happened to be at that home when this boy..if he did it...decided to eleminate his father along with my husband. I wouldn't want the system to just let this boy loose with no punishment at all. Everyone should have to pay the consequences of their actions whether they are 8 yrs or 80 yrs. I would be so angry if there was no justice for my husband and this boy is allowed to just walk away like nothing happend. He knows right from wrong and he knew the two guys were dead after he shot them...or so he said. The boy isn't the only one involved in this case. There are two dead men and one is his father. The other is someone who just happened to be there at the home.

Personally, I think...if this boy is proven guilty by the evidence...he should be placed in detention or some place for younger kids until he is old enough to stand trial. No way should the charges all be dropped. The system should come up with a solution for this case instead of wringing their hands and saying "we don't know what to do with this boy." Figure it out fellows. Change the law to where he can be charged when he is older.

We should be concerned for the boy but lets not forget that two men are dead...two wives became widows, two girls lost their father, two sets of parents lost their sons, the men no doubt had brothers and sisters, nieces and nephews, etc. Look at all of the people whose lives will never be the same after that horrible day.

He can't be proven guilty by evidence until he goes to trial. Since he is not currenlty proven guilty of anything, he should not be held in detention. He should be out on bond with supervision or ankle braclet or whatever, as almost any other defendant would be allowed. If he goes to trial AND he is proven guilty, then the punishment should fit the crime AND his age at the time of the crime -- not some crap about waiting to try him as an adult when he's then old enough to understand the process & contribute to his defense. If he wasn't old enough to understand the process at the time of the crime, he probably wasn't old enough to fully understand the crime either. Therefore, get him the treatment he needs so he doesn't become a repeat offender. None of this is rocket science in my book.

Geez, our society should treat people like they are human, don't friggin' write them off when they are 8 years old -- escpecially when there is NO CONVICTION at this point & flimsy evidence & coerced statements from the child. In our country we operate under the assumption that you are innocent until proven guilty. What the he!! has happened to that concept relative to how this child has been handled?????
imo

Not directed specifically to you bobbisangel, just kind of turned into a rant. :rolleyes:
 
  • #225
I would ask - did Mrs. Romans know this boy and his voice? I would also ask if she timed her call to exactly the time the murderer she knew would be there was there to avenge her husband's cheating? I would call that reasonable doubt. She is NOT an eye-witness.


Yes Mrs. Roman knew the boys voice. Her and her husband talked everyday at the same time after work and she didn't know he was cheating.
 
  • #226
He can't be proven guilty by evidence until he goes to trial. Since he is not currenlty proven guilty of anything, he should not be held in detention. He should be out on bond with supervision or ankle braclet or whatever, as almost any other defendant would be allowed.
QUOTE]......sniped

In many cases there is no bond for murder, especially double murder. There must be enough evidence to hold him.
 
  • #227
Yes Mrs. Roman knew the boys voice. Her and her husband talked everyday at the same time after work and she didn't know he was cheating.

She also said she had visited the Romero home before and he was there.

She knows his voice. I doubt she will ever be able to get it out of her mind again.

imoo
 
  • #228
I would ask - did Mrs. Romans know this boy and his voice? I would also ask if she timed her call to exactly the time the murderer she knew would be there was there to avenge her husband's cheating? I would call that reasonable doubt. She is NOT an eye-witness.

She has not stated she was a eye witness. She was an ear witness just like the neighbors who will testify to what they heard that eventful day.

Her statement will come in.

imoo
 
  • #229
He can't be proven guilty by evidence until he goes to trial. Since he is not currenlty proven guilty of anything, he should not be held in detention. He should be out on bond with supervision or ankle braclet or whatever, as almost any other defendant would be allowed. If he goes to trial AND he is proven guilty, then the punishment should fit the crime AND his age at the time of the crime -- not some crap about waiting to try him as an adult when he's then old enough to understand the process & contribute to his defense. If he wasn't old enough to understand the process at the time of the crime, he probably wasn't old enough to fully understand the crime either. Therefore, get him the treatment he needs so he doesn't become a repeat offender. None of this is rocket science in my book.

Geez, our society should treat people like they are human, don't friggin' write them off when they are 8 years old -- escpecially when there is NO CONVICTION at this point & flimsy evidence & coerced statements from the child. In our country we operate under the assumption that you are innocent until proven guilty. What the he!! has happened to that concept relative to how this child has been handled?????imo

What about treating the Roman and Romano families like they are human? Both families lost loved ones. If an adult committed these crimes, sympathy would be on the side of the victims.
 
  • #230
The prosecution can elect not to prosecute in cases like this. And I can think of two cases where they had ample evidence of the crime and the prosecution did elect not to prosecute. One was two 6 or 7 year old boys who raped a 4 or 5 year old girl at school, the other was a girl about 6 or 7 who stabbed another child (she said she just wanted to.) In both cases the prosecution said the state was not setup to handle such a young child and the child was too young to understand the court system. And one of the cases they mentioned something about they did not believe that it would be in the interest of justice to take the kid to court. It wasn't said, but I believe that in these cases the parents may have agreed to take the kids to counseling. But they wouldn't state that publicly due to the child's right to privacy in matters of treatment.

This child will be nine in a few days. This child is charged with premeditated double homicides. The DA has a duty to seek justice for the citizens in his county.......that is his job even if others disagree, however; I think most of the people in that town/county do expect justice for the two victims who died.

If that will ever be achieved remains in limbo at the moment.

Since this case is so extremely rare and so are the circumstances of the juvenile offender, if I were the DA I would take my case to the Supreme Court along with the evidence and ask for their guidance. IF he is deemed age incompetent now, that is.

imoo
 
  • #231
You and ordinarylife do not understand hearsay. If Mrs. Roman heard the boy's voice herself, knew it was his voice... she could testify about it. Then the defendant could be asked about this if he takes the stand.

Hearsay would be something her husband said to her, she could not repeat it because no one could cross examine the husband as he is dead. As Oceanblueeyes said there is "the excited udderance" exception to the hearsay rule, the judge could allow something Mr Roman said in that case.

HEARSAY RULE

"A rule of evidence that prohibits secondhand testimony at a trial. For example, if an eyewitness to an accident later tells another person what she saw, the second person's testimony is hearsay. The reason for this rule is that the opposing party has no ability to confront and cross-examine the person who has firsthand knowledge of the event. "

http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/FFEBF86E-989B-4B2E-BC22081A6301B4F0

Even though she witnessed it with her "ears"? We still need those calls logs..
 
  • #232
What about treating the Roman and Romano families like they are human? Both families lost loved ones. If an adult committed these crimes, sympathy would be on the side of the victims.

We're not even sure the boy committed the crimes. If he did, the only fitting scenario would be due to abuse. He does not have the prerequisite of prior sociopathy signs show. The evidence is not back in yet, either.
Not to mention a shoddy investigation work done so far.
 
  • #233
We're not even sure the boy committed the crimes. If he did, the only fitting scenario would be due to abuse. He does not have the prerequisite of prior sociopathy signs show. The evidence is not back in yet, either.
Not to mention a shoddy investigation work done so far.


We really don't know about this boy but it is compelling to me that even his own grandmother said he was capable of doing this. So it makes me think there are things that have not been told yet that may have already manifested themselves. It is hard to diagnose those with sociopathic traits at this age. Many times red flags are dismissed and disregarded as the boy just being a boy. Sociopaths are great pretenders and mimic others. That is why most of them do not ever murder anyone but they do know how to control their faux appearance.

And kids don't always kill because of abuse. I just read an article yesterday where a young juvenile killed because the parents wouldn't let him play his video game. Some children just seem to kill at will, when they become frustrated about something and it doesn't have to have anything at all to do with being abused but just not getting their way about something or getting angry if they were put on restriction for their own wrongdoing.

imoo
 
  • #234
We really don't know about this boy but it is compelling to me that even his own grandmother said he was capable of doing this. So it makes me think there are things that have not been told yet that may have already manifested themselves. It is hard to diagnose those with sociopathic traits at this age. Many times red flags are dismissed and disregarded as the boy just being a boy. Sociopaths are great pretenders and mimic others. That is why most of them do not ever murder anyone but they do know how to control their faux appearance.

And kids don't always kill because of abuse. I just read an article yesterday where a young juvenile killed because the parents wouldn't let him play his video game. Some children just seem to kill at will, when they become frustrated about something and it doesn't have to have anything at all to do with being abused but just not getting their way about something or getting angry if they were put on restriction for their own wrongdoing.

imoo

While i agree with you, OBE, that i would love to hear what the grandmother has to say; if he had shown prior signs of sociopathy, the school would be aware as well. It's not hard to diagnose sociopathic traits at the boy's age. Many are diagnosed even younger than he is.
 
  • #235
While i agree with you, OBE, that i would love to hear what the grandmother has to say; if he had shown prior signs of sociopathy, the school would be aware as well. It's not hard to diagnose sociopathic traits at the boy's age. Many are diagnosed even younger than he is.

Yes, there could be things that were simply dismissed. Many times they are until an in depth look is done by an expert peering into the existing history.

A child can't be labeled a psychopath or sociopath until they reach the age of maturity (18) but they can be diagnosed after extensive assessment to have a conduct disorder which is just another way to say the child is on their way to being a full blown psychopath or sociopath when the label can be given at the age of 18.

I really think that most likely Joesph Duncan was a budding sociopath at a very early age but it went unrecognized at that time, unfortunately.

imoo
 
  • #236
It would be interesting to know what teachers had to say about the boy. The public school he attended in St. Johns would most likely be Coronado Elementary. The school has 66 students in Grade 3, with a 16 student/teacher ratio for the entire school. The teachers must know the students pretty well.

Again, it would also be interesting to know more about Eryn Thomas Bloomfield. Right now, we know nothing about her, except that she's the boy's bio mother.
 
  • #237
It would be interesting to know what teachers had to say about the boy. The public school he attended in St. Johns would most likely be Coronado Elementary. The school has 66 students in Grade 3, with a 16 student/teacher ratio for the entire school. The teachers must know the students pretty well.

Again, it would also be interesting to know more about Eryn Thomas Bloomfield. Right now, we know nothing about her, except that she's the boy's bio mother.

It would be great if we could hear from the teachers. With such a small student/teacher ratio, they'd be more likely to "know" each child better.
 
  • #238
What about treating the Roman and Romano families like they are human? Both families lost loved ones. If an adult committed these crimes, sympathy would be on the side of the victims.

I have never said I don't have sympathy for the victims. And, yes, I want justice served. Currently, I do not think it is being served for anyone in this whole situation, as there does not appear to be any level of ongoing investigation (that appearance could be due to the gag order.)

Here's the thing -- an adult would have been read his rights & may or may not have been coerced into making incriminating statments. Absent that coersion, there is not enough evidence available at this point to have charged anyone and made an arrest. IMO
 
  • #239
It would be interesting to know what teachers had to say about the boy. The public school he attended in St. Johns would most likely be Coronado Elementary. The school has 66 students in Grade 3, with a 16 student/teacher ratio for the entire school. The teachers must know the students pretty well.

Again, it would also be interesting to know more about Eryn Thomas Bloomfield. Right now, we know nothing about her, except that she's the boy's bio mother.

I was thinking the boy may have gone to Catholic school. IIRC when they were talking about the funeral held for Vincent they mentioned it sat right next to where the boy attended school. I thought it perhaps was the same church that had the school but I am not positive.

imoo
 
  • #240
I was thinking the boy may have gone to Catholic school. IIRC when they were talking about the funeral held for Vincent they mentioned it sat right next to where the boy attended school. I thought it perhaps was the same church that had the school but I am not positive.

imoo

Here is a link to the only Catholic school near St. Johns - http://stanthonyschoolwm.org/staff.htm

The website home talks about having space available for the 2007-2008 year, so it doesn't look like it's been updated in at least a year. And it appears that the school has classes from k-3rd grade this year, but if you click on the "faculty" link, you only get three teachers - Pre-K, K and 1st. There is a photo from 2006 with what appears to be all the kids, however when I zoom in at 400%, I get nothing but blur.
 
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