AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

[SailorMoon]

The kid knew he was in trouble ...remember his comments about going to juvie?

That comment has always struck me as odd as well. What 8 yo knows and thinks and uses the word/term juvie?? I mean my 7yo wouldn't have a clue. I wonder if he was threatened or knew someone that it happened to or what. I just found it an odd thing for a little boy that young to say.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

That comment has always struck me as odd as well. What 8 yo knows and thinks and uses the word/term juvie?? I mean my 7yo wouldn't have a clue. I wonder if he was threatened or knew someone that it happened to or what. I just found it an odd thing for a little boy that young to say.

I have to agree. What 8 year old child would be familiar with such a phrase? It definitely is not a word tossed around in a healthy environment of family, for goodness sakes!

 

[Linda7NJ]

That comment has always struck me as odd as well. What 8 yo knows and thinks and uses the word/term juvie?? I mean my 7yo wouldn't have a clue. I wonder if he was threatened or knew someone that it happened to or what. I just found it an odd thing for a little boy that young to say.

My son was familiar with the word at that age. A neighborhood friend's older brother was sent there. I remember me explaining it to him when he asked me. I told him it was a jail for kids that do really bad things. As I recall he had lots of questions. I really don't find it that strange of a word for an 8 year old.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I have to agree. What 8 year old child would be familiar with such a phrase? It definitely is not a word tossed around in a healthy environment of family, for goodness sakes!

I bet it was tossed around at school. If so I think it's perfectly normal for him to come home and ask questions of family members. I even remember a neighborhood boy when I was very young being sent off to 'reform school" That was explained to me by my dad as kid jail too when I asked.

I am stunned at many of the things discussed in the schools today.

 

[SailorMoon]

I asked this a few pages back, but was it the norm for him to get off the bus alone each day? My childs bus won't let them off at that age if no one is there.

 

[Shelby77]

Ok, I know this is going to upset quite a few people on here, and I can understand why, so I'll be ducking and running after this post lol
But I'm certainly not (at this point) looking for any justice for VR. I still stand by my statement that if this boy shot anyone other than his father, which yea I know he did, I would hold his dad at least somewhat accountable, how much would be depending on the circumstances.
Now, I don't hold every parent responsible for every action their child does, just to make that clear. I'm a parent myself so I certainly don't want to be held accountable for all actions/statements from my teenage son lol.

BUT this boy was 8 (I know almost 9) y/o and was already a latchkey kid!! I KNOW VR was within his legal rights in doing so, but what the heck? HE WAS 8. Even IF we trust our children, there is still VERY good reason for this not to be a good idea. There are a variety of things that could occur that an 8 y/o, especially boy as they typically mature slower than girls, would simply not be capable of handling. IMO, that is flat out neglect. Unless there's some dire circumstances that couldn't be prevented, that is just not acceptable to me. I know I know, who am I to judge. I make it a point to not judge people on most things, but it really bugs this little guy was left alone for what seems to be a minimum of an hour, probably closer to 2. And it was stated Tiffany worked Mon. & Wed., not sure if that meant she just worked later those days or didn't work at all on Tues, Thurs, and Fri. So it was probably at least 2x/week. For how long I wonder?

Not to mention the fact that this child was left home alone in a house with unsecured guns and bullets riddling the floor. The random bullets just all over the floor disturb me to. I know that the bullets in and of themself on the floor are not a danger, other than tripping. But I just picture a little boy home alone w/ bullets on the floor all around him and I have to wonder if all was being done right by that boy. Again, I know VR was within his legal rights, and I consider myself fairly conservative. But come on, these are our children!!! Why take these risks?!?

I also think if CR (can we use his initials?) was the kind of boy who was so full of spite and hate and anger that he would coldy premeditate and commit the murder of his father and an innocent man, over not getting his way or being angry over being put on restriction, there had to be some indication something was off. There is NO way he faked being totally normal if he was filled with that much RAGE. So what does dad do. Puts a gun in his hands and teaches him how to kill. This has NOTHING to do with hunters and their families out there, gazillions of them just normal, I know that, I'm related to a bunch of em But if we had a young boy who even slightly demonstated anger issues, that is the LAST thing most people would do. Which leads me to believe CR never showed any indicators (or VR ignored them but I don't see that here).
So that leaves me w/ an 8 y/o murderer, why? Why did he do it? I just can't buy the sociopath thing yet. Not saying it's not possible, just that it doesn't make sense to me for all the reasons I stated above. Round and round I go in my mind and I just can't make any sense out of it all. There MUST be much more that we don't know.

I don't mean to say VR deserved his fate, but he was responsible for that young boy. I feel horribly for all those that loved him, but I can't say "I'm seeking justice for his murder". And I don't think he would be looking for justice. VR would be looking for a way to help his little boy throughout this. I think he would want his son to be treated with compassion and respect until at least all the facts are known. At least I know I would.

And SailorMoon, my son's school system wouldn't allow them off the bus alone till 4th grade....I'm in Jersey though...

 

[Salem]

This was interesting. I read it a few weeks ago and it might be duplicative but it was a 7 and 8 year old where a coerced confession was involved. I know there is much more information available on this particular case. The city of Chicago paid big bucks for this one.
http://www.injusticeline.com/confess.html

Thanks for bringing this over Chargergal. It was posted in Thread 2 also. I think it is very important to note here how the younger child "said" he put a stem in the girl's nose and other things. It appears none of that was true and I would venture to guess the interrogation of these two boys was very similar to the one we are seeing in the tape. Just my opinion - NOT saying that is exactly what happened as I did not follow this case and only know what the article says.

Apache County needs to slow down and make sure they have their ducks in a row or they will end up like the great city of Chicago, paying through the nose.

Salem

 

[Trino]

Ok, I know this is going to upset quite a few people on here, and I can understand why, so I'll be ducking and running after this post lol
But I'm certainly not (at this point) looking for any justice for VR. I still stand by my statement that if this boy shot anyone other than his father, which yea I know he did, I would hold his dad at least somewhat accountable, how much would be depending on the circumstances.
Now, I don't hold every parent responsible for every action their child does, just to make that clear. I'm a parent myself so I certainly don't want to be held accountable for all actions/statements from my teenage son lol.

BUT this boy was 8 (I know almost 9) y/o and was already a latchkey kid!! I KNOW VR was within his legal rights in doing so, but what the heck? HE WAS 8. Even IF we trust our children, there is still VERY good reason for this not to be a good idea. There are a variety of things that could occur that an 8 y/o, especially boy as they typically mature slower than girls, would simply not be capable of handling. IMO, that is flat out neglect. Unless there's some dire circumstances that couldn't be prevented, that is just not acceptable to me. I know I know, who am I to judge. I make it a point to not judge people on most things, but it really bugs this little guy was left alone for what seems to be a minimum of an hour, probably closer to 2. And it was stated Tiffany worked Mon. & Wed., not sure if that meant she just worked later those days or didn't work at all on Tues, Thurs, and Fri. So it was probably at least 2x/week. For how long I wonder?

Not to mention the fact that this child was left home alone in a house with unsecured guns and bullets riddling the floor. The random bullets just all over the floor disturb me to. I know that the bullets in and of themself on the floor are not a danger, other than tripping. But I just picture a little boy home alone w/ bullets on the floor all around him and I have to wonder if all was being done right by that boy. Again, I know VR was within his legal rights, and I consider myself fairly conservative. But come on, these are our children!!! Why take these risks?!?

I also think if CR (can we use his initials?) was the kind of boy who was so full of spite and hate and anger that he would coldy premeditate and commit the murder of his father and an innocent man, over not getting his way or being angry over being put on restriction, there had to be some indication something was off. There is NO way he faked being totally normal if he was filled with that much RAGE. So what does dad do. Puts a gun in his hands and teaches him how to kill. This has NOTHING to do with hunters and their families out there, gazillions of them just normal, I know that, I'm related to a bunch of em But if we had a young boy who even slightly demonstated anger issues, that is the LAST thing most people would do. Which leads me to believe CR never showed any indicators (or VR ignored them but I don't see that here).
So that leaves me w/ an 8 y/o murderer, why? Why did he do it? I just can't buy the sociopath thing yet. Not saying it's not possible, just that it doesn't make sense to me for all the reasons I stated above. Round and round I go in my mind and I just can't make any sense out of it all. There MUST be much more that we don't know.

I don't mean to say VR deserved his fate, but he was responsible for that young boy. I feel horribly for all those that loved him, but I can't say "I'm seeking justice for his murder". And I don't think he would be looking for justice. VR would be looking for a way to help his little boy throughout this. I think he would want his son to be treated with compassion and respect until at least all the facts are known. At least I know I would.

And SailorMoon, my son's school system wouldn't allow them off the bus alone till 4th grade....I'm in Jersey though...

I live south of the Twin Cities. My county's published guidlines say is it acceptable for 8, 9 yr olds to be alone for 2 hours, longer if the child is mature for his/her age. It is my understand that CR was alone for 1.5 hours the day of the murders. I just cannot think VR would be guilty of neglect. There are many latchkey children in the US who are very responsible.

VR sought advice from his priest about giving his son a gun. You can't get much higher on Earth than that.

 

[Shelby77]

I know, and I believe I stated that I know, that it was legal for him to be home alone, IIRC there is not set age in Arizona, just when a parent deems appropriate. I looked into this earlier in the case and was shocked to see many states are similar. There's a link in the 1st thread that explains the law in Az.

But just cuz it's legal doesn't make it a good idea. That was all I meant by neglect, not in the legal sense, just common sense lol. I've discussed this with many people since and I've not found one person yet who left their 8 y/o home alone after school, not that anybody would admit to anyway, so I don't believe this is at all common to do. I know some who would leave 10 y/o and run up to the convenience store. I'd say the average age of the latchkey kid is around 11, if not 12, in my area. Then again, we have an abundance of afterschool programs in my state, does Arizona school system not provide them? Maybe in other states, this is deemed appropriate and common?? Not in the NE I know that...not in this day and age...

And as a sidenote, the priest advised against the gun, and yet CR still had one. Not that it matters as it appears he would have had access to them whether one "belonged" to him or not, so the point is kinda moot for me

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I know, and I believe I stated that I know, that it was legal for him to be home alone, IIRC there is not set age in Arizona, just when a parent deems appropriate. I looked into this earlier in the case and was shocked to see many states are similar. There's a link in the 1st thread that explains the law in Az.

But just cuz it's legal doesn't make it a good idea. That was all I meant by neglect, not in the legal sense, just common sense lol. I've discussed this with many people since and I've not found one person yet who left their 8 y/o home alone after school, not that anybody would admit to anyway, so I don't believe this is at all common to do. I know some who would leave 10 y/o and run up to the convenience store. I'd say the average age of the latchkey kid is around 11, if not 12, in my area. Then again, we have an abundance of after school programs in my state, does Arizona school system not provide them? Maybe in other states, this is deemed appropriate and common?? Not in the NE I know that...not in this day and age...

And as a sidenote, the priest advised against the gun, and yet CR still had one. Not that it matters as it appears he would have had access to them whether one "belonged" to him or not, so the point is kinda moot for me

Do you have a link where the Priest advised against the gun. I find that illogical that Vincent would care enough to ask his Pastor, most likely in confidence, and then do the opposite. It is also strange for a Priest to disclose a personal conversation held between them and one of their church members.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I place no blame on either one of these two murder victims. The Romeros seem to be the typical family that is all across America where the mother and father works and there is a time period gap between when the child gets home until the parents do. I was an only child living at home just like this boy. At the age of 8, I locked the doors until my mother or daddy got home around 5 each day from work. I have found that an only child sometimes are more mature than other children their ages. Vincent Romero had this boy living in his household with him ever since birth and not one thing ever happened to him in that entire time. If he had been a neglectful father he would not have been awarded full physical custody of him over his biological mother. I think he not only loved, doted but tried to give the boy the best care and support he knew how. It had to be hard for a single working father to raise such a small child of two when the boy's mother left so early in his life.

Also I do not blame Vincent, for his son taking a weapon that was intended for another purpose all together, and used it to commit murder against him and his coworker. I have no doubt whatsoever that Vincent told his son in no uncertain terms that he was never to touch the guns. *I believe he even said he was not to even touch his air rifle/BB gun behind Vincent's back. Vincent's flaw was he trusted his son, like many other hunting families do with their children who don't betray their parents like this child did and he would never have dreamed in a million years this boy was plotting to murder someone, much less him and his friend. Not once was this about a safety issue concerning this boy. Not one hair on his head was harmed by that weapon, which would have laid there collecting dust if he had not picked it up, and used it to kill human beings. It is HIS mindset that set this off and no one knew what lurked in his mind. He knew that it was wrong and he knew that death was final imo. So if it turns out that he IS the one who did this then he is to blame, not the victims who's lives were gone forevermore due to his actions alone. His mind was the trigger...the weapon was only the tool used to implement what was already formed in his mind.

By trying to lay blame at Vincent's feet it means he is at fault because he did not protect himself from his own child. What parent can even wrap their minds around that when it comes to their own children? The day that parents have to consider that their children may be plotting to murder them and have to prepare their home like a fortress to guard against it, will be even a scarier world than it is now imo.

I have wondered if Vincent was able to turn his head even slightly enough to see the shooter before he collapsed on the stairs. I sincerely hope he was not able to do so and I hope he never knew who that person was that held that rifle.

imoo

 

[Shelby77]

OBE, I don't blame him directly, but he IS accountable for the fact that he left his 8 y/o home alone in a house with unsecured weapons.
That is NOT typical of American families!

It is FAR from typical. EVERY hunting family I've ever known has kept them secure from their children, and while I don't doubt that people do leave them unsecured, as I don't know everyone, it is still a far from typical thing, and an even much smaller percentage that has 8 y/o latchkey children in the home. IN THIS DAY AND AGE.

I've stated before and I will state again what your parents did with you is not relevant to this conversation, times change period. Are you still 8? There are many things that people did back then that simply aren't considered acceptable now. That is absurd to even compare the two, IMO. It goes beyond trust of the child, things happen that 8 y/o aren't possible of coping with, that's why we supervise them.

How many of you would let your children play at a friends house, unsupervised, knowing about the unsecured weapons and bullets littering the floor. You wouldn't. That's exactly why we don't leave children of that age unsupervised. So they don't end up in that situation.

And I stand by my statement that especially in this circumstance, VR was accountable for CR's actions. If CR went and shot the 4 y/o next door and left his father untouched, would his father face no consequence? No public scrutiny? Ridiculous. Of course he would.

I don't mean he's not a victim in his own way, and I feel immensely for the pain his family must be going thru, I can't even begin to imagine how a grandmother could cope with this.

 

[twinkiesmom]

The Romeros seem to be the typical family that is all across America where the mother and father works and there is a time period gap between when the child gets home until the parents do.

It is not typical for decent parents to leave elementary school children unattended with keys to let themselves in and watch themselves after school.

If he had been a neglectful father he would not have been awarded full physical custody of him over his biological mother.

I think it's entirely possible that the parent with the better attorney won the custody fight. That being said, her moving out of state can not be argued in her favor.

Vincent's flaw was he trusted his son, like many other hunting families do with their children who don't betray their parents like this child did and he would never have dreamed in a million years this boy was plotting to murder someone, much less him and his friend.

The gun should have been locked up..especially since this young elementary school student was unattended for 1-2 hours every afternoon.

The day that parents have to consider that their children may be plotting to murder them and have to prepare their home like a fortress to guard against it, will be even a scarier world than it is now imo.

If you're going to use corporal punishment to the extent it was used in this home, you should expect that your child will be angry. Another reason to secure the weapon. Heated spousal arguments....another reason to secure the weapon.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

OBE, I don't blame him directly, but he IS accountable for the fact that he left his 8 y/o home alone in a house with unsecured weapons.
That is NOT typical of American families!

It is FAR from typical. EVERY hunting family I've ever known has kept them secure from their children, and while I don't doubt that people do leave them unsecured, as I don't know everyone, it is still a far from typical thing, and an even much smaller percentage that has 8 y/o latchkey children in the home. IN THIS DAY AND AGE.

I've stated before and I will state again what your parents did with you is not relevant to this conversation, times change period. Are you still 8? There are many things that people did back then that simply aren't considered acceptable now. That is absurd to even compare the two, IMO. It goes beyond trust of the child, things happen that 8 y/o aren't possible of coping with, that's why we supervise them.

How many of you would let your children play at a friends house, unsupervised, knowing about the unsecured weapons and bullets littering the floor. You wouldn't. That's exactly why we don't leave children of that age unsupervised. So they don't end up in that situation.

And I stand by my statement that especially in this circumstance, VR was accountable for CR's actions. If CR went and shot the 4 y/o next door and left his father untouched, would his father face no consequence? No public scrutiny? Ridiculous. Of course he would.

I don't mean he's not a victim in his own way, and I feel immensely for the pain his family must be going thru, I can't even begin to imagine how a grandmother could cope with this.

No I am not 8 anymore but I still know young children this age (including my own grandchildren) who are taught to hunt and they can be trusted. They dont even have to know whether the weapons are kept locked or unlocked. They know they are not to be anywhere near the guns without supervision, period. I have never known one single child this age that used a gun against a human being or even accidentally hurt someone and I come from a long history of avid hunters. So there again IMO it is the mindset of THIS child that put this into play.

And you are right. This child is not the typical child because it is extremely rare that a child this age murders anyone which convinces me this is about THIS child. However I am sure VR was not a mind reader or he would have removed those guns from the home. Heck he may have removed all the knives or baseball bats too if he had known what was to come but he did not know imo.

VR is a murder victim because the one that took his life made him one. Another to be listed as a life taken by someone who had no right to do so. Romans will also be on that tragic list.

I dont understand Shelby.......on one hand you tell me something is not relevant..........so how is him going to shoot a 4 year old next door even relevant when that did not even happen in this case. No one got hurt but those that lived in the same home he did.

You will have to take that up with the AZ legislature on the latchkey issue. They are the ones that have stated it is not illegal to leave a child this age alone. They even say up to 3 hours. I think that is way too much time to be left alone but I am not the one that creates the laws in AZ. They usually will have open hearings where experts testify so that they then can make a decision.

Most states that I have looked at leave it up to the individual parents but may suggest an certain age.

imoo

 

[Chargergal]

I read in the transcripts released today (paraphrasing) the judge was sort of chewing out the defense attorney for not obtaining the previous medical records. From what they mentioned he has quite a large file, stated in the court records was a visit from a local hospital, air evac and records from a large hospital in Phoenix. Now of course we don't know what that is, it would be interesting to find out, but I don't think we can assume nothing has happened up until now.
IMHO,
K

 

[Fairy1]

I'm not interested in blaming the victims here, but we truly do not know what was happening in that house behind closed doors. And I'm sorry, but I don't personally believe it's ok to leave an 8-year-old child alone for any period of time. Not only because of the trouble they may get into on their own, but simply because it's not safe for them. If you spend any time on WS, you know that children of all ages are targets of countless dangers.

Going by what we have learned about Vincent, he was a loving father. But again, appearances can be deceiving. We truly don't know. As I've said, there are definitely other possibilities here that should be examined and the fact that an unescorted child confessed to these murders under questionable circumstances means little to me. And yes, if he was a grown man under the same conditions, I would not be entertaining other scenarios. But this is a small child and I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt until we know more. Much more...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It is not typical for decent parents to leave elementary school children unattended with keys to let themselves in and watch themselves after school.

*It must be common in AZ. They say a child this age can be left alone for up to three hours. I am sure they think decent parents will abide by their laws in place and not break them.


I think it's entirely possible that the parent with the better attorney won the custody fight. That being said, her moving out of state can not be argued in her favor.

"There is no evidence of that and imo it would take something really drastic for a Judge to rule against the biological mother and give physically custody to the father. This father was not rolling in money



The gun should have been locked up..especially since this young elementary school student was unattended for 1-2 hours every afternoon.

"VR got off at 4:30 pm and was home before 4:52. How could he be left home two hours everyday and I thought that day Tiffany had gone shopping. How do we know when she normally came in each day? Even the boy said she would be late that day.



If you're going to use corporal punishment to the extent it was used in this home, you should expect that your child will be angry. Another reason to secure the weapon. Heated spousal arguments....another reason to secure the weapon.

*We have no proof that corporal punishment was used. Just restricting a child to their room is a form of corporal punishment. In fact in the new documents the Nov. 19th Pre Adjudication hearing Woods told Judge Roca that the defense has never said the boy was abused. He said that was said by the MEDIA.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm not interested in blaming the victims here, but we truly do not know what was happening in that house behind closed doors. And I'm sorry, but I don't personally believe it's ok to leave an 8-year-old child alone for any period of time. Not only because of the trouble they may get into on their own, but simply because it's not safe for them. If you spend any time on WS, you know that children of all ages are targets of countless dangers.

Going by what we have learned about Vincent, he was a loving father. But again, appearances can be deceiving. We truly don't know. As I've said, there are definitely other possibilities here that should be examined and the fact that an unescorted child confessed to these murders under questionable circumstances means little to me. And yes, if he was a grown man under the same conditions, I would not be entertaining other scenarios. But this is a small child and I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt until we know more. Much more...

I think Vincent felt safe there and so did the boy. It was known as a quiet neighborhood. They knew the neighbors. He had friends very close by. They had not had a murder case there in over 20 years until this one.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I read in the transcripts released today (paraphrasing) the judge was sort of chewing out the defense attorney for not obtaining the previous medical records. From what they mentioned he has quite a large file, stated in the court records was a visit from a local hospital, air evac and records from a large hospital in Phoenix. Now of course we don't know what that is, it would be interesting to find out, but I don't think we can assume nothing has happened up until now.
IMHO,
K

Yes, from what Vincent said in his child support papers his child was born a preemie and had underdeveloped lungs.

He complained when the boy's mother came to get him the boy always came back home sick and hacking. He even said one time she let her boyfriend blow smoke in the boy's ear to try to cure his ear ache.

So I think his medical report will be extensive. May have had to life flight him to Phoenix if he had developed pneumonia.

imoo

 

[Fairy1]

No I am not 8 anymore but I still know young children this age (including my own grandchildren) who are taught to hunt and they can be trusted. They dont even have to know whether the weapons are kept locked or unlocked. They know they are not to be anywhere near the guns without supervision, period. I have never known one single child this age that used a gun against a human being or even accidentally hurt someone and I come from a long history of avid hunters. So there again IMO it is the mindset of THIS child that put this into play.

And you are right. This child is not the typical child because it is extremely rare that a child this age murders anyone which convinces me this is about THIS child. However I am sure VR was not a mind reader or he would have removed those guns from the home. Heck he may have removed all the knives or baseball bats too if he had known what was to come but he did not know imo.

VR is a murder victim because the one that took his life made him one. Another to be listed as a life taken by someone who had no right to do so. Romans will also be on that tragic list.

I dont understand Shelby.......on one hand you tell me something is not relevant..........so how is him going to shoot a 4 year old next door even relevant when that did not even happen in this case. No one got hurt but those that lived in the same home he did.

You will have to take that up with the AZ legislature on the latchkey issue. They are the ones that have stated it is not illegal to leave a child this age alone. They even say up to 3 hours. I think that is way too much time to be left alone but I am not the one that creates the laws in AZ. They usually will have open hearings where experts testify so that they then can make a decision.

Most states that I have looked at leave it up to the individual parents but may suggest an certain age.

imoo

OBE - with all due respect, whether or not it's legal to leave a child of 8 alone is irrelevant. Though it does imply that parents should use their own discretion. If that's what Vincent was doing in allowing this boy to be alone after school, then I would have to assume he felt the boy was responsible enough to be alone until a parent came home. That tells me that this was a good boy who did what he was told. In my mind, that implies that they knew this little boy was trustworthy and capable of caring for himself - not a troublemaker, delinquent or potential murderer.

We cannot assume that, as in your family, Vincent had taught this child not to touch the weapons in the home unless he was with an adult. We really don't know that. I do assume that, if these people felt their child was a potential danger, they would most likely have locked up their guns.

It's a lovely thought to believe that children of any age can be taught to resist temptation if it presents itself. But that's just not realistic. I'm not saying every parent should know exactly what their children are capable of under any and all circumstances. But common sense should prevail and it is our responsibility, as parents, not only to teach right from wrong, but to help our children to stay on the right path. I have a 16 year old son with raging hormones, but I would not bring a hooker into my home!!! :crazy: