AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

[oceanblueeyes]

OBE - with all due respect, whether or not it's legal to leave a child of 8 alone is irrelevant. Though it does imply that parents should use their own discretion. If that's what Vincent was doing in allowing this boy to be alone after school, then I would have to assume he felt the boy was responsible enough to be alone until a parent came home. That tells me that this was a good boy who did what he was told. In my mind, that implies that they knew this little boy was trustworthy and capable of caring for himself - not a troublemaker, delinquent or potential murderer.

We cannot assume that, as in your family, Vincent had taught this child not to touch the weapons in the home unless he was with an adult. We really don't know that. I do assume that, if these people felt their child was a potential danger, they would most likely have locked up their guns.

It's a lovely thought to believe that children of any age can be taught to resist temptation if it presents itself. But that's just not realistic. I'm not saying every parent should know exactly what their children are capable of under any and all circumstances. But common sense should prevail and it is our responsibility, as parents, not only to teach right from wrong, but to help our children to stay on the right path. I have a 16 year old son with raging hormones, but I would not bring a hooker into my home!!! :crazy:

Yes, we do know that. He told the officers that he went behind his father's back and used the air rifle/BB gun and he felt bad about that, he said. If his dad had not told him to leave the guns alone then he wouldn't have said that or that he felt bad about it. So yes, he did tell him and Vincent didn't want him to even touch the BB gun, without him being present. He trusted him which was a fatal flaw of Vincent's and it cost him his life.

imoo

 

[Chargergal]

Yes, from what Vincent said in his child support papers his child was born a preemie and had underdeveloped lungs.

He complained when the boy's mother came to get him the boy always came back home sick and hacking. He even said one time she let her boyfriend blow smoke in the boy's ear to try to cure his ear ache.

So I think his medical report will be extensive. May have had to life flight him to Phoenix if he had developed pneumonia.

imoo

I had no idea what the reasons for an extensive medical record. I just noticed this today. Mom was only 17 when she delivered him and that does make sense to deliver a preemie. Where was this posted? I would be upset if someone was smoking around my children anyway, let alone with persistant lung problems. Thanks for the clarification.
K

 

[MeoW333]

It is not typical for decent parents to leave elementary school children unattended with keys to let themselves in and watch themselves after school.



I think it's entirely possible that the parent with the better attorney won the custody fight. That being said, her moving out of state can not be argued in her favor.



The gun should have been locked up..especially since this young elementary school student was unattended for 1-2 hours every afternoon.



If you're going to use corporal punishment to the extent it was used in this home, you should expect that your child will be angry. Another reason to secure the weapon. Heated spousal arguments....another reason to secure the weapon.

Amen, Sister! :clap:

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I had no idea what the reasons for an extensive medical record. I just noticed this today. Mom was only 17 when she delivered him and that does make sense to deliver a preemie. Where was this posted? I would be upset if someone was smoking around my children anyway, let alone with persistant lung problems. Thanks for the clarification.
K

Gosh I posted the link but it was weeks ago now.

Let me see if I can find it.

BRB

 

[MeoW333]

No I am not 8 anymore but I still know young children this age (including my own grandchildren) who are taught to hunt and they can be trusted. They dont even have to know whether the weapons are kept locked or unlocked. They know they are not to be anywhere near the guns without supervision, period. I have never known one single child this age that used a gun against a human being or even accidentally hurt someone and I come from a long history of avid hunters. So there again IMO it is the mindset of THIS child that put this into play.

And you are right. This child is not the typical child because it is extremely rare that a child this age murders anyone which convinces me this is about THIS child. However I am sure VR was not a mind reader or he would have removed those guns from the home. Heck he may have removed all the knives or baseball bats too if he had known what was to come but he did not know imo.

VR is a murder victim because the one that took his life made him one. Another to be listed as a life taken by someone who had no right to do so. Romans will also be on that tragic list.

I dont understand Shelby.......on one hand you tell me something is not relevant..........so how is him going to shoot a 4 year old next door even relevant when that did not even happen in this case. No one got hurt but those that lived in the same home he did.

You will have to take that up with the AZ legislature on the latchkey issue. They are the ones that have stated it is not illegal to leave a child this age alone. They even say up to 3 hours. I think that is way too much time to be left alone but I am not the one that creates the laws in AZ. They usually will have open hearings where experts testify so that they then can make a decision.

Most states that I have looked at leave it up to the individual parents but may suggest an certain age.

imoo

OBE, this isn't a battle about hunters or their families. This is an isolated case, and it should be treated as so!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I had no idea what the reasons for an extensive medical record. I just noticed this today. Mom was only 17 when she delivered him and that does make sense to deliver a preemie. Where was this posted? I would be upset if someone was smoking around my children anyway, let alone with persistant lung problems. Thanks for the clarification.
K

The link seems to not be working anymore. They may have dropped it off by now but here is part of it when I linked it the first time. You may can do a search on their site.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/s...1a37a0964.html You may have to copy and paste the link. Sorry.


Now 3TV sheds new light on the love this father had for his little boy. The papers show that the father fought in court to keep custody of his son. He also fought to make sure his son went to church and was not exposed to things like second-hand smoke. He writes that his son was a “preemie” with underdeveloped lungs and every time he visits his mom he comes home hacking.

Romero also writes about how she allowed a total stranger to blow smoke in his ear thinking it would cure an undiagnosed ear ache and he writes that for a year and a half his ex-wife lived in Mississippi and saw her son a total of about two weeks.

Romero complains she lived in a travel trailer without plumbing and she "shacked up" with her boyfriend in Springerville. The papers are dated two years ago but since the deadly shooting six days ago the mother has been at her son's side in St. Johns, a tiny rural eastern Arizona town taken by storm.

One resident says, "My heart breaks for the child because I don't believe that he realized the consequences of his actions and he probably took the life of maybe somebody who loved him most and most dearly."

 

[oceanblueeyes]

OBE, this isn't a battle about hunters or their families. This is an isolated case, and it should be treated as so!

Exactly. It isn't about hunting or using a rifle when hunting it is about THIS child and what was in the mind of THIS child.

I agree totally.

imoo

 

[SoobsinMI]

Do you have a link where the Priest advised against the gun. I find that illogical that Vincent would care enough to ask his Pastor, most likely in confidence, and then do the opposite. It is also strange for a Priest to disclose a personal conversation held between them and one of their church members.

I don't know if the priest advised against it or not, but unless it was said in confessional, the priest is not under obligation to keep a confidence from police. He could have been interviewed and told what the conversation was about.

 

[SoobsinMI]

I think Vincent felt safe there and so did the boy. It was known as a quiet neighborhood. They knew the neighbors. He had friends very close by. They had not had a murder case there in over 20 years until this one.

imoo

I don't know how "safe" the neighborhood was. The responding officer stated he thought he was responding to a drug overdose, considering the "area." I don't consider that safe, even without a murder in 20 years.

 

[Trino]

It is not typical for decent parents to leave elementary school children unattended with keys to let themselves in and watch themselves after school.

Wow. I consider myself to be a decent parent, and I am offended by your remark. My sons are normal and both have advanced degrees. They were always good students. I taught school, and my husband was in business. Yes. They had a key and let themselves in the house. They also walked home with other kids whose parents weren't home either. My sons let the dog out and started on their homework. Never once did we have problems.

I don't know where you live, but I can tell you I live in a very nice suburb, and it IS typical for school children to be home before their parents get home from work. Most mothers work, as well as fathers. The parents in my neighborhood do not get home at 3:30 in the afternoon.

 

[Fairy1]

Exactly. It isn't about hunting or using a rifle when hunting it is about THIS child and what was in the mind of THIS child.

I agree totally.

imoo

I totally agree that this is about THIS child.

 

[Trino]

And, further, twinkiesmom, my younger son who is now 25 just dropped by to say hello. He even brought my husband and I a loaf of bread. I let him read your "decent" post. He said your comment is ridiculous, and you owe me an apology.

 

[Fairy1]

Wow. I consider myself to be a decent parent, and I am offended by your remark. My sons are normal and both have advanced degrees. They were always good students. I taught school, and my husband was in business. Yes. They had a key and let themselves in the house. They also walked home with other kids whose parents weren't home either. My sons let the dog out and started on their homework. Never once did we have problems.

I don't know where you live, but I can tell you I live in a very nice suburb, and it IS typical for school children to be home before their parents get home from work. Most mothers work, as well as fathers. The parents in my neighborhood do not get home at 3:30 in the afternoon.

At the age of 8??? So, your children were responsible. How about the pedophiles in your suburb? Were they responsible as well? I have worked since my children were very young. I always made arrangements for them to be in a safe place - NOT alone. Be offended all you like, I believe it's irresponsible to leave an 8-year-old child ALONE - no matter their level of maturity. You can only expect so much from an 8-year-old child. IMO.

 

[Trino]

Were t

At the age of 8??? So, your children were responsible. How about the pedophiles in your suburb? Were they responsible as well? I have worked since my children were very young. I always made arrangements for them to be in a safe place - NOT alone. Be offended all you like, I believe it's irresponsible to leave an 8-year-old child ALONE - no matter their level of maturity. You can only expect so much from an 8-year-old child. IMO.

Wow again. The population of my county is 355,000. I guess the PUBLISHED GUIDELINES for what ages it is acceptable to leave children home alone and for how long is wrong? So, you're telling me 355,000 people are being misled by the county? Misled because YOU say this county is wrong?

Actually, once my son got to 3rd grade, he refused to have after school child care. By the way, his friends did, too.

 

[harleysnana]

And, further, twinkiesmom, my younger son who is now 25 just dropped by to say hello. He even brought my husband and I a loaf of bread. I let him read your "decent" post. He said your comment is ridiculous, and you owe me an apology.

17 years ago when your son was 8 it may have been safe... now days
I don't think it is.

I also don't think she owes you an apology... she didn't aim that remark
towards you.:blowkiss:

 

[Fairy1]

Wow again. The population of my county is 355,000. I guess the PUBLISHED GUIDELINES for what ages it is acceptable to leave children home alone and for how long is wrong? So, you're telling me 355,000 people are being misled by the county? Misled because YOU say this county is wrong?

Actually, once my son got to 3rd grade, he refused to have after school child care. By the way, his friends did, too.

WTH difference does it make how many people are in the county where you live? It only takes ONE bad guy. And I'm sorry, but my children "refused" a lot of things when they were 8 as well. In my house, they were not in charge. So, I listened to and discussed their opinions, then did what I knew was right for them. As any responsible parent should do.

It's pointless to get into a discussion regarding what is right or wrong for any 8-year-old child. The only child pertinent to this discussion is this little boy. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as is everyone else who posts here. NO ONE owes you an apology for anything.

 

[Trino]

It's pointless to get into a discussion regarding what is right or wrong for any 8-year-old child. The only child pertinent to this discussion is this little boy. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as is everyone else who posts here. NO ONE owes you an apology for anything.

Well, maybe you owe the other "decent" parents in my entire county, since IT IS APPROVED, an apology for saying no decent parent would not leave an 8 yr old home alone for 2-3 hours. This also has a bearing on the St. Johns boy, since VR followed guidelines in his community, i.e. leaving the boy alone. Just because one boy gets into trouble does not make it wrong for everyone else.

Sorry, but I do not live in a ghetto area.

 

[colette]

Wow, both my grown kids had keys and sometimes came home to an empty house when they were younger. They turned out wonderful. Every case is individual. Some kids you can trust and know they have skills to do what's expected.

We can not really compare this kid to our kids. This kid is in a class all by himself. He didn't get in trouble when he was alone either... he committed the double murder with a parent present.

As far as how the kid knew about juvie... maybe he asked someone, "what happens to kids that kill someone?" ....they go to juvie... If he did we will hear of it if there is a trial.

 

[gitana1]

I would never leave an 8 year old alone for any significant length of time. And, not because I would not trust my child. There are wierdos out there who like to kidnap, molest and murder children. An 8 year old does not stand a chance against an adult. Period. It's not about what the law allows, it's not about whether a parent is decent or not or negligent. It is abour common sense and informed parenting.
I do think that with the information we have in this day and age, it may be neglectful and not just in "ghettoes". Many abductions occur in nice, middle class neighborhoods, like Megan Kanka.
But, we are getting off topic. Latchkey kids have really nothing to do with this case. If this boy committed these killings than it was not made possible because he was home alone for an hour. (Lots of kids are and I don't think it shows his dad was a bad parent. Some people have no other resources). Simply, if the boy did this, it happened because something is wrong with him and he had a weapon that could not be yanked from his hands by a bigger, stronger, person.

 

[gitana1]

*We have no proof that corporal punishment was used. Just restricting a child to their room is a form of corporal punishment. In fact in the new documents the Nov. 19th Pre Adjudication hearing Woods told Judge Roca that the defense has never said the boy was abused. He said that was said by the MEDIA.

You are mistaken. Corporal punishment is not sending a child to his room. It is the deliberate infliction of pain on a person to punish them or change their behavior. Spanking, whipping, flogging, paddling, these things are corporal punishment. So would be cutting a person's hand off to punsih them for stealing. Corporal means 'of the body'.
There is evidence that corporal punishment was used on the boy as he made this statement and apparently CPS had some knowledge of his claims. To my knowledge, no one has made the statement that the child was abused but many, including prosecutors, have inferred that he may have been. Time will tell.