AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

[twinkiesmom]

Just from what I have seen, most grandparents think parents are too strict.

The fact that their son is dead gives the grandparents' criticism of the son's parenting practices more weight.

 

[tapu]

The fact that their son is dead gives the grandparents' criticism of the son's parenting practices more weight.

One might argue the counterpoint: that this kid's behavior was out of control (tho' not necessarily to the point of predicting he'd murder) and so the father was doing what he thought best, i.e. using a "heavy hand," to discipline him.

 

[twinkiesmom]

One might argue the counterpoint: that this kid's behavior was out of control (tho' not necessarily to the point of predicting he'd murder) and so the father was doing what he thought best, i.e. using a "heavy hand," to discipline him.

If this were an "out of hand" child, he would have a school discipline record....This child does not.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If this were an "out of hand" child, he would have a school discipline record....This child does not.

I don't put much into that. I am sure we have all known children that can behave perfectly somewhere else and then be the total opposite in their own homes.

Maybe it is because they feel they can push the envelope more when it comes to their parents and the other environments will not tolerate it.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

You are mistaken. Corporal punishment is not sending a child to his room. It is the deliberate infliction of pain on a person to punish them or change their behavior. Spanking, whipping, flogging, paddling, these things are corporal punishment. So would be cutting a person's hand off to punish them for stealing. Corporal means 'of the body'.
There is evidence that corporal punishment was used on the boy as he made this statement and apparently CPS had some knowledge of his claims. To my knowledge, no one has made the statement that the child was abused but many, including prosecutors, have inferred that he may have been. Time will tell.

I have seen it both ways. Pain and emotional punishment. I will see if I can find some of the links again.

I did spank my children on rare occasions and of course I have also done the restricting them to their rooms or taking away their possessions.

But if I look at it at face value, when I restricted them or took away their possessions, it is pretty much like how prisoners are treated. Or like they do with the Al Qaeda combatants when they secured them in a restricted area and at first withheld the Koran from them as a form of punishment. So imo, it is a debatable issue over what is emotional punishment and physical punishment and are either of them good for the child's wellbeing.

We have been told that emotional issues are harder to get over than physical abuse. But unfortunately they don't hand out handbooks on how to parent when a child is born. There are so many varying views when it comes to child rearing and no way of knowing which one even applies. It is just a smörgåsbord of ideas compiled by many individuals. So I believe that most parents try to adhere to the guideline that works best for them and their individual child or children.

I have not seen where the DA said he was abused. They are there to rule that in or out, which is proper in a case involving a minor defendant. Since corporal punishment is not illegal, if that was done, then it is not abuse. There would have to be bruises left on the child because of the spanking.

Again, yes, we have heard he was spanked but even the defense attorney said that the defense has never claimed it was abuse and that claim was started by the media, not them, he said.

imoo

 

[Chargergal]

Wow, both my grown kids had keys and sometimes came home to an empty house when they were younger. They turned out wonderful. Every case is individual. Some kids you can trust and know they have skills to do what's expected.

We can not really compare this kid to our kids. This kid is in a class all by himself. He didn't get in trouble when he was alone either... he committed the double murder with a parent present.

As far as how the kid knew about juvie... maybe he asked someone, "what happens to kids that kill someone?" ....they go to juvie... If he did we will hear of it if there is a trial.

Perhaps he knew about "Juvie" because he drives by it everyday, or it is next to the post office, the supermarket, etc. Let's not forget St. Johns, AZ is a population of less than 4,000. It is a fairly new building from what I have read.

I live in Arizona, and my kids were 13, 10, 7 and one day after work I came home to a not on my door from CPS they were not allowed to be at home alone. Although this was 15 years ago. It turned out the youngest could not be there without someone over 16. I do not live the ghetto, I live in an upscale gated community. I now have an 8 y/o son (I know I'm crazy) and there is no way he would be home alone after school. He basicaly is an only child (since the others have all moved out) and what if something were to happen to him, like he fell down the stairs and cracked his head open, the house caught on fire, etc. Of course, St. John's is an economically challenged city and perhaps they didn't have the means to provide after school care...who knows?

I think so many people in this boys life just let him down. He obviously wasn't a "planned" child and mom and dad were very young. It appears dad and son loved each other very much. Unfortunately, dad lacked coping and the boy was overly disciplined.
I think dad was a bit of a control "freak" and he controlled both Tiffany and his son. Bio-mom certainly didn't help by leaving when he was so young and it appears she got her life together and was trying to earn her way back into the boys life. Maybe dad told him that he will never go live with his mom and this was the only way he felt this could happen.

All of this is just rambling thoughts that came into my head last night because I was having a hard time sleeping...thinking about this too much!

Someone mentioned they thought that VR would want his son treated fairly and with compassion - he is probably turning in his grave knowing how this is playing out.
K

 

[MCDRAW]

The fact that their son is dead gives the grandparents' criticism of the son's parenting practices more weight.

Someone could also argue that once the grandson was charged with their son's murder. They were angry, so they said the grandson was capable of murder. Whether true or not.

 

[MCDRAW]

If it were just a case of "being to strict" i don't think the grandmother would have spouted it out at all. It seems something she said in an very emotional state of mind.
If they were just being to strict, she probably wouldn't have said it. There's more we're not privy to.

I am certain that you are right, there is a lot that we don't know about this case. She did comment on this at a very emotional time, the death of her son. I know in my family we have had several deaths. I have said or done things that later looking back I thought was stupid or didn't make sense. I guess that's why I am taking the Grandmother's words with a grain of salt until there is evidence to back it up.

 

[tapu]

Someone could also argue that once the grandson was charged with their son's murder. They were angry, so they said the grandson was capable of murder. Whether true or not.

Yes, that was actually my own first impression.

 

[Bobbisangel]

It just doesn't make any sense to me that anyone whether it be LE or the grandparents or anyone else would actually want this boy to be guilty. Most people would be making excuses for him and why he couldn't have done this. I don't believe for a minute that LE went out of their way to hang this little boy for these crimes. Who would go after an 8 year old boy just to get a case resolved. It makes no sense at all to me. In the first place he wouldn't have even been looked at at a suspect...and he wasn't. They thought he may have witnessed the murders. Something pointed them towards this boy instead of away from him. If they ever release the forensic evidence I think we will discover what that was. They will then put the puzzle together for us.

I think grandparents either think their kids are to strick or not strict enough when it comes to the grandkids. I know that my son was way to strict with his first son and it really used to tick me off. If my son and another person...his wife..or a friend had ended up dead the thought that my grandson might have murdered them wouldn't have even entered my head for a second. I would need to hear it from my grandson and see the proof. I'm sure that my grandson harbored some very angry thoughts because they were so hard on him. I'm sure he still harbors some of those thoughts. His parents were really young when they had him and I kept him as much as I could. When his brother was born 6 yrs later they were ready to be parents.
The difference in the way the two boys were treated would make anyone resentful and angry but not enough to murder his parents. Most kids at 8 yrs old might want to get back at their parents in some way but I doubt that murder is even a thought for most of kids of that age. I would like to hear the rest of what the grandparents had to say. I'm sure that LE already has.
Gramma needs to clarify what she actually meant.

 

[fran]

The fact that their son is dead gives the grandparents' criticism of the son's parenting practices more weight.

The grandparents got the idea that their 8yo grandson did this came from VR's wife, this child's step-mom. Therefore, IMO, the grandparent's statement MAY be true and maybe NOT. It does make me question the 'motive' and 'reason' of the step-mom to think this child could have done such a crime.

I know Tiffany is a 'victim,' but with the statement from the grandparents that she thought the child committed this crime before they did and the fact she was out going to parties and such within a few short weeks after her husband's murder, makes me want to know more about HER. MUCH MORE.

LE thinks they solved this crime. I disagree. They should continue to investigate ALL persons involved and then some.

JMHO
fran

 

[twinkiesmom]

The grandparents got the idea that their 8yo grandson did this came from VR's wife, this child's step-mom. Therefore, IMO, the grandparent's statement MAY be true and maybe NOT. It does make me question the 'motive' and 'reason' of the step-mom to think this child could have done such a crime.

I know Tiffany is a 'victim,' but with the statement from the grandparents that she thought the child committed this crime before they did and the fact she was out going to parties and such within a few short weeks after her husband's murder, makes me want to know more about HER. MUCH MORE.

LE thinks they solved this crime. I disagree. They should continue to investigate ALL persons involved and then some.

JMHO
fran

You're right, they could have been responding to Tiffany or the LE opinion that he definitely did it without holding that opinion independently themselves. And the confession is irrevocably tainted, so we really don't know that he did it apart from what may come back from forensic testing.

On the IS board, they found something in the transcripts that may have been LE complaining that the height didn't work out...I'm not sure how to find that part or if their analysis was correct.

 

[fran]

When the two officers questioned and video taped this child, they went completely away from the procedure for such a session. This boy was a witness. LE told the boy he needed to be honest with them and they would be honest with him. They both leaned into the child, touching him, taking his 'space' as they would a suspect. When the child didn't say what they wanted him to say, they kept questioning him and questioning him,......LYING TO HIM.......that someone saw him, that he was called and didn't answer,....led down the path until he said what they wanted.

There's NO WAY this entire tape is going to be admitted into evidence in ANY trial, IMHO. Once this child even hinted he may have shot 'Tim,' they led him until he finally said he 'thought' he did and then they led him to his dad's murder,.........led him until he finally said he 'maybe' shot him and then he said he did.

IMHO, they dropped the charges of the dad's murder because they do NOT have, YET, ANY evidence that the child shot his dad, EXCEPT the ILLEGALLY obtained confession.

I admit I haven't read all the transcripts, but from the video that I've seen, once the child allegedly confessed to the one murder, 'Tim,' LE was obligated to cease questioning, because he's now gone from a 'witness' to an 'alleged suspect,' and they SHOULD HAVE read him his rights,...... THEN AND THERE, BEFORE proceeding. They did NOT. They continued to question him and that's when they got him to admit he shot his dad. The confession to his dad's murder will MOST DEFINITLY NOT come in.

The confession to the first murder, Tim, will most likely be determined to NOT be valid. First of all, LE did NOT get permission to question the child from the proper person. The step-mom nor the grandparents were LEGALLY able to give this permission. LE has ADMITTED, they were aware the child had a bio mom. Secondly, this wasn't really a confession, per MANY experts who've viewed the video, it was LE leading a scared child down the path, saying what 'he THOUGHT' they wanted to hear.

This boy told LE that he FOUND Tim at the door and then he called his dad and ran upstairs and he then found his dad with blood on his face. When the officers kept questioning him, the child misinterpreted what they wanted. When the child realized they 'claimed' to not believe his story, he told them what his dad had always said to do with a wounded animal and what he THOUGHT would make him look 'good' in LE's eyes, 'he put them out of their misery because they were suffering.'

That was NOT what LE wanted to hear. They wanted to know WHO the child saw shoot the men, because they THOUGHT someone the child knows did it and the child was too scared to say WHO.

But everything went terribly wrong when the child THOUGHT he knew one thing, LE misunderstood what he said,.... and it has turned into 'he confessed.'

Sorry,........I am NOT buying this confession. I believe this is going to turn out very differently than it is today.

I wouldn't even doubt that it was a 22 hand gun that carried 10 rounds (that's the # of shots between the two victims, btw) was used and NOT the child's 22 rifle.

I could be completely wrong on this, I admit. But this is how I see it now. Hopefully, within the next few days I'll have time to read all the transcripts and see if I still see this case in the same light. I do think, however, this child needs a GOOD human rights attorney on his side.

JMHO
fran

PS....FWIW, from what I got from the video, Tim's wife didn't 'hear' the child call Tim. LE told the boy, someone called him and 'he didn't answer.' Could Tim have heard a commotion inside the house? when he told his wife 'something was going on and he needed to hang up,' and he started inside and was shot dead? fran

 

[Ms Suzanne]

He can't be proven guilty by evidence until he goes to trial. Since he is not currenlty proven guilty of anything, he should not be held in detention. He should be out on bond with supervision or ankle braclet or whatever, as almost any other defendant would be allowed. If he goes to trial AND he is proven guilty, then the punishment should fit the crime AND his age at the time of the crime -- not some crap about waiting to try him as an adult when he's then old enough to understand the process & contribute to his defense. If he wasn't old enough to understand the process at the time of the crime, he probably wasn't old enough to fully understand the crime either. Therefore, get him the treatment he needs so he doesn't become a repeat offender. None of this is rocket science in my book.

Geez, our society should treat people like they are human, don't friggin' write them off when they are 8 years old -- escpecially when there is NO CONVICTION at this point & flimsy evidence & coerced statements from the child. In our country we operate under the assumption that you are innocent until proven guilty. What the he!! has happened to that concept relative to how this child has been handled?????
imo

Not directed specifically to you bobbisangel, just kind of turned into a rant.

Very well written mostlylurking.I agree.In this little boys confession he is asked a few times how he last saw his father and Tim Romans.He says a few times he saw his father on the floor and a few times Tim Romans on the ground.He never admitted I believe he ever shot them first.He also says the white car that he saw driving away looked like his grandfather's car.It bothers me to see the confession.so I won't look at it again.This little boys case is on IS too?I will check it out there too.

 

[fran]

You're right, they could have been responding to Tiffany or the LE opinion that he definitely did it without holding that opinion independently themselves. And the confession is irrevocably tainted, so we really don't know that he did it apart from what may come back from forensic testing.

On the IS board, they found something in the transcripts that may have been LE complaining that the height didn't work out...I'm not sure how to find that part or if their analysis was correct.

Thanks twinkiesmom! I really need to get over to the IS board and see what they're saying. First, though, I must read the rest of these transcripts. Ugh! That is if I don't keep getting kicked off because of the Caylee case.

So sad.


fran

 

[twinkiesmom]

I love how the police officer who interviewed the boy is his neighbor and may have been a witness in this case without having further complicated things by interviewing the boy.

Did they get a search warrant for the boy's clothes or did the grandparents just hand it over? Wonder if the clothes will come into evidence.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I am interested in knowing of LE ever looked into anything the child said in the interview. Like, the small white car speeding off. The one without tire rims on the back tires.

Also, I know LE stated that they saw a video of Tiffany at Wilber's, but did they ever check into the NAPA store and the time that she spent there? Tiffany was not at work as some had shared she was....

Just tossing questions out there in response to reading the Brewer interview transcripts with LE.

I hope this posts. Busy place here lately due to Caylee.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I love how the police officer who interviewed the boy is his neighbor and may have been a witness in this case without having further complicated things by interviewing the boy.

Did they get a search warrant for the boy's clothes or did the grandparents just hand it over? Wonder if the clothes will come into evidence.

IMHO, the LE officer who did the interview with this child, a neighbor, should never have been involved in it. I see it as a bias where she acknowledged knowing the child and that he even played with her dog.

Grandparents handed the clothing of without a warrant.

 

[mysteriew]

You're right, they could have been responding to Tiffany or the LE opinion that he definitely did it without holding that opinion independently themselves. And the confession is irrevocably tainted, so we really don't know that he did it apart from what may come back from forensic testing.

On the IS board, they found something in the transcripts that may have been LE complaining that the height didn't work out...I'm not sure how to find that part or if their analysis was correct.

If my daughter-in-law told me that a certain person shot my son, and LE told me that a certain person shot my son, I would be very angry. And I would not only believe it was possible that that person shot my son, I would probably be angry enough to focus on the most negative aspects of that person, and would believe him capable of shooting my son. As an initial reaction anyway. Even if that person was my grandson.

Too many things the grandmother has said are open to too many ways of interpetation. I am still finding it hard to believe that a newly grieving mother would criticize her son by saying that he was "too strict" on his son. Newly grieving parents usually will not tolerate any criticism of their lost child or will at least minimize that criticism.

I don't know, we are hearing too little of the grandmother's comments and we aren't hearing them in context with everything else that is said.

 

[Trino]

I don't know, we are hearing too little of the grandmother's comments and we aren't hearing them in context with everything else that is said.

The grandmother (and an aunt) were awarded visiting privileges, as were the mother and step-mother. To my knowledge, only the natural mother has visited the boy. The grandmother has not.