AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

[oceanblueeyes]

Kinda' puts a different spin on it when you put a second sentence from their report? Appears to me, there wasn't enough traces of gunpowder to prove he actually shot a gun TEN times. Guess this is why people are entitled to a TRIAL and allowed to put up a defense.

IMO, it means the child didn't 'shoot' the gun but may have handled it or been close to a gun being discharged,.................or, IMHO, as the defense will put forth, 'ran into a gunsmoke filled house,' as the child claimed in his ORIGINAL statement.

JMHO
fran

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177

"The report released by prosecutors Monday says the boy might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a firearm. "

That is going to be far fetched imo. First a .22 rifle doesn't have a lot of gunsmoke coming from the barrel that would fill the house. For him to have GSR on his clothing he had to be at least three feet or less away when it fired.

That would mean if he tries to say he didn't do it, that he was standing three feet or less from the mysterious killer, when they fired.

I had mention this before. Once I learned that there was two close range shots to the victims, it made me believe that GSR would be found on his clothing. I also think when they get his shoe results back GSR will be on them too.

When one shoots a rifle they always put one foot out in front of the other to give them balance and control. When the shooter shot the close up shots, which were less than two feet away from the victims heads, his shoe and pants leg would be very close to the heads also.

The State is requesting more testing be done on the rifle. Imo, now that they know the boy was at the crime scene when this happened, they are going to test to see if all .22 bullets used in the crime were fired from his weapon. They may have already or will also look for any forensics that may have been left on the barrel of the gun such as blood spatter or brain matter.

It also leads me to believe that the blood pattern seen on his jeans will be medium to high velocity blood spatter.

JMO though.

So it has begun. More and more testings results will start coming in now.

 

[seashore]

Actually he would be diagnosed Conduct Disordered.

You may want to look up Dr. Rober Hare and see what he says.

I meant to say "could be" not "would be" diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder. I meant Oppositional Defiant Disorder because on page 39 of the DSMIV says that is characterized by negatvistic, hostile, and defiant behavior. Conduct Disorder is characterized by ehavior which violates others basic rights or the major age appropriate societal norms or rules. Page 95 of the DSMIV also states that age of onset is prior to age 10 and may have had Oppositional Defiant Disorder in early childhood. Since he has not been reported as being in trouble in school or anywhere (except maybe at home), I just assumed he could not be ODD which can develop into CD. I know, I know what is said about being careful to not assume anything...

I haven't looked up Dr. Rober Hare yet but will soon.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think they'd better figure out if he is guilty first. That confession and so much surrounding this case is hinky in the extreme!

Seems like they are working diligently on proving that imo.

Oh yeah, he did lie in the confession. First he said he walked around the block 10 times before going home. Then he admitted he went home and was there when his father came in from work. Then he says when he found his dad, his face was already covered in blood, yet after then is when he said he shot him two times to end his suffering. Well he learned head shots to small animals ends their suffering, so he couldn't have already seen his father's face bloody when he said he first found him because his father's face became all bloody by being shot in the head.

I don't find his confession out of the norm for other suspects. He actually was pretty sharp and very talkative. He seem to have an answer for anything asked, except a few things he let slip like his father's face being already bloody, and him being all dramatic about staying with his father for 30minutes, which cannot be remotely true.

Vince and Tim left work around 4:30 pm and when Mrs. Romans talked with her husband at 4:52 pm when Tim was in the driveway of the Romero home, Tim told her, Vince had already gone inside. Tim was on the phone 2.5 minutes before he told her he had to go see what the boy wanted. IIRC, Tiffany Romero had talked to her husband around 4:47 pm. The gunshots were heard a little after 5 pm. There wasn't 30 minutes to spare to spend with VR. This was all happening in a very short time interval.

imoo

 

[seashore]

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177

Gunshot residue found on boy's clothing.



AP Story

Here is a couple of quotes from the article on the above link:

"but a report on the examination doesn't specifically identify the boy as the shooter. "

"The report released by prosecutors Monday says the boy might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a firearm."

 

[seashore]

Welcome seashore. :blowkiss:

While we will disagree on whether or not the boy did it, you will find a lot of strong opinions on this boy here.

I think he wandered around because he's a typical kid, bored and looking for something to do!! Maybe he didn't like sitting alone playing video games? Or liked to socialize in the neighborhood, or be outside? It sounds like his dad wasn't home most days when he got home from school. And he wasn't waiting for his mom to get home, it was the stepmom. So he must have liked/loved her to some extent.

Sorry. The boy refered to his stepmom as mom when he said he waited for "Mom". I knew she was actually his stepmom. And you are right, he's a typical kid.

 

[seashore]

There wasn't 30 minutes to spare to spend with VR. This was all happening in a very short time interval.

imoo

Hi oceanblueeyes.
Most children are a poor judge of time. 5 minutes to them seems like half an hour.

 

[seashore]

does anyone know if they have looked closer at Amos and his white Ford?

 

[chicagofa13]

Oy vey. We wonder if an 8 y/o is capable of this? Here is a 4 y/o who allegedly got angry and shot his babysitter:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,476525,00.html

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I read it and the report is not precise at all on any point. That said, WTH does a "Gag Order" mean when something like this is released? Is it truth or just fodder from *whomever*? Please, someone explain it to me. AZ special laws or something???

Honestly, this makes no sense at all. Who the hell is in charge of this case or has any respect for rulings???? :waitasec: Geez....

I believe they are pretty much like Florida. When any evidence has been disclosed to the defense attorney already then the media has access to it after then.

Just like Brewer released his 100 page interview with the two officers to the media. The State was already aware of the interviews.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Oy vey. We wonder if an 8 y/o is capable of this? Here is a 4 y/o who allegedly got angry and shot his babysitter:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,476525,00.html

LOL I just put this same story in Current Crimes.

And I cant believe it. This 4 year old child was able to shoot a shotgun!

 

[Fairy1]

Oy vey. We wonder if an 8 y/o is capable of this? Here is a 4 y/o who allegedly got angry and shot his babysitter:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,476525,00.html

Good Lord! First of all, why does a 4-year-old know where a gun is and, evidently, has easy access to it? And....that lack of control - in a 4-year-old child - has to be learned behavior. Or shall we label him a sociopath as well?

Children learn from the adults in their lives how to respond to life situations. By all accounts to which we've been privy, Vincent was a good and caring father. We've not heard he was violent or quick to anger. However.......we don't know everything there is to know. Even if the boy was not known to have any behavioral issues - which appears to be the case at this point - we don't know how he has been taught to deal with adverse situations. And without court ordered therapy, we may never know. Children this young generally have a difficult time articulating their thoughts and feelings. IMO, it will take a professional to unravel this child's psyche - whether he killed these men or not.

 

[fran]

does anyone know if they have looked closer at Amos and his white Ford?

Hi searshore!and Welcome to Weblseuths!

I would HOPE they're looking at Amos and his WHITE Ford Ranger small pick up truck. After all, he didn't like Tim and Vincent. I don't know why he quit the company they worked for in October, but he did run around telling everyone he got fired, when in fact he did NOT. I'm not sure if Amos (former Army Ranger) was upset that Tim got HIS Foreman job when he quit. I do know that Amos was pointed at by more than one of the victim's fellow employees as a person to look at. I understand also that Amos acted kind of different after his son was found murdered in his burnt out vehicle. I understand Amos' son was last seen at a bar.(you don't think that Tim, who went to the bar every night, could be connected somehow to Amos' sons' demise? Were they known to frequent the same bar?)

I'd be interested to see if LE has looked at the possibility that someone 'borrowed' Tim's mom's car that day? She does have a 'WHITE CAR.' Could it be possible that 'victim' Tim's cousin who's involved with drugs that is responsible for the gun shot hole in the front of Tim's truck........Could he have had access to Tim's mom's WHITE car? Was Tim still involved in drugs? The local Reservation LE officer sure made it sound like he was STILL involved in drugs. "He's a drug dealer," were her words to St. John's officers about Tim.

I hope LE has looked at Misty's b/f. You know, Misty,the bartender or co-owner of the bar Tim and Vincent frequented? Misty, the OTHER-other woman,.......(not to be confused with Candy who Tim had asked to marry him the prior night),.......... Misty who has a reported, 'LOCO BOYFRIEND.' I understand Misty and Tim had some fun in the back room of the bar,............at least that's what Tim told fellow employees. (course, Misty told officers "Candy" was the only girl Tim dated.)

There's also the Mexican guy at work, maintenance worker? Anyway, he has a WHITE CAR as well. But, of course LE didn't follow-up any further on about him, as the CHILD allegedly confessed and detectives were told to forgetaboutit and return to the station.

Oh,.............there's one more WHITE CAR around town. You know, "a WHITE CAR just like GRANDPA'S." This would be the same Grandpa who keeps his 22 at Vincent's house. This is the same 22, NOT a Cricket, but takes the same ammunition (or shells),..........the same 22 that is MISSING from the MURDER SCENE? Was this a Mossberg? Automatic?


http://ktar.com/index.php?sid=993970&nid=237&pid=4
Crime scene photo of Mossberg owner’s manual


http://www.mossbergintl.com/pages/702plinkster.htm
Mossberg 702 splinkster 22LR


Gosh, hard to keep track of all the possibilities here. Such a small town and so much going on.

JMHO
fran

PS...........OH, don't forget the 3 Mexican guys Tim and Vincent got in the fight with at the bar! You know? The guys who wanted Vincent to join their GANG but Tim told Vincent to stay away from them. LE should have a report somewhere,...........they were called!

PPS.....Oh, yeah, I'm not sure that Tanya's alleged report of hearing the child's voice at the crime scene is going to hold up. Seems there's conflicting reports. FIRST she said her husband, that would be victim Tim, said "XXXXXX is calling me, something's going on, I gotta go, call you later."..................NOW she says she 'HEARD xxxxxxxx VOICE CALLING 'TIM!'' and she's trying to sue the 'deep pockets' game manufacturers for $$$$$$. Oh, yeah, AND even-though her Civil Attorney told her to cooperate with LE, she wouldn't even give them Tim's cell #. She told them to call her lawyer..... Course, .............it COULD be LE THAT'S LYING...:waitasec:...guess the judge will find out 'cuz the def has requested some motion or somethin' about conflicting police officer's reports.

PPPPSSSS.......COURSE,......... there's ALSO the fact that Tim was behind in his rent to Vincent, only $50 a week, (Vincent told his friend 3 weeks prior, Tim hadn't been paying)....YET, Tim had $500 cash in his wallet! What's with that? Was he flashing it around the bar? Did he just get paid? Paid from????????? For????????????

So many ways to turn, it's really :crazy:......imo, fran

 

[Trino]

Do you mean Tanya rather than Tiffany?

 

[seashore]

Hi fran,
Those are pretty much the same questions I've been asking in my head. Why did LE drop what they were doing because an 8 year old boy "confessed"? The DA says they are still investigating, but are they really? Still investigating the boy. But what about the other possibilities?

Why can't the boy get some therapy (confidentiality included)? What ever happened to IUPG? If he is found innocent, then he has suffered needlessly because folks are out for his blood. He needs some help regardless if he is innocent or guilty. (I really think he is innocent). He needs help yesterday. Not when court can decide if he can or not. He'll end up with PTSD if he doesn't already. He could be dissociating. If he was abused he could have already been dissociative. Children are good at that. He needs some help. Where is our American Christian compassion?

Sorry, didn't mean to rant.

 

[fran]

Do you mean Tanya rather than Tiffany?

Oh, yes, you're correct. I'll correct my post.
Thanks,
fran

 

[fran]

Hi fran,
Those are pretty much the same questions I've been asking in my head. Why did LE drop what they were doing because an 8 year old boy "confessed"? The DA says they are still investigating, but are they really? Still investigating the boy. But what about the other possibilities?

Why can't the boy get some therapy (confidentiality included)? What ever happened to IUPG? If he is found innocent, then he has suffered needlessly because folks are out for his blood. He needs some help regardless if he is innocent or guilty. (I really think he is innocent). He needs help yesterday. Not when court can decide if he can or not. He'll end up with PTSD if he doesn't already. He could be dissociating. If he was abused he could have already been dissociative. Children are good at that. He needs some help. Where is our American Christian compassion?

Sorry, didn't mean to rant.

Don't be sorry, you didn't rant!

I understand that it's the child's mental health, in part, why his def attorney has been making motions about a therapist for him. Unfortunately, the judge and attorney can't just call each other up and discuss the matter like two adults, they need to file motions, responses, amended motions, responses, amended motions.......etc.

I read that the boy's therapist must talk to him with glass separating them. How's an 8 yo supposed to deal with that?

I too believe the boy MOST likely did not commit this crime and not only is he traumatized from finding his dad and friend murdered, now the adult world is playing games with him and his young mind. He most definitely will need therapy AFTER this is over, that's for sure.

Hopefully the judge will put a stop to this madness soon. Somebody really needs to reign in this loose cannon St Johns PD and this pros, who NOT ONLY have released the boy's name on the internet, his coerced confession as well (which, btw, imo, has back-fired on them BIG TIME! what a joke), but they're completely IGNORING the judge's GAG order and releasing information, step, by step.

Disgraceful!

IMHO
fran

 

[azmama]

IMO the boy should be declared a ward of the state. Certainly, the court and the attorney can come up with a reason for this.

NO! Oh no, are you a resident of Arizona? I am sorry, but I would not wish that on any child, regardless of what had happened.

CPS here in AZ is clueless and behind the curve at best, we have children dying nearly every month that are under the umbrella of "ward of the state". Not good, period, imo it is nearly the same as a death sentence.

 

[azmama]

Seems like they are working diligently on proving that imo.

Oh yeah, he did lie in the confession. First he said he walked around the block 10 times before going home. Then he admitted he went home and was there when his father came in from work. Then he says when he found his dad, his face was already covered in blood, yet after then is when he said he shot him two times to end his suffering. Well he learned head shots to small animals ends their suffering, so he couldn't have already seen his father's face bloody when he said he first found him because his father's face became all bloody by being shot in the head.

I don't find his confession out of the norm for other suspects. He actually was pretty sharp and very talkative. He seem to have an answer for anything asked, except a few things he let slip like his father's face being already bloody, and him being all dramatic about staying with his father for 30minutes, which cannot be remotely true.

Vince and Tim left work around 4:30 pm and when Mrs. Romans talked with her husband at 4:52 pm when Tim was in the driveway of the Romero home, Tim told her, Vince had already gone inside. Tim was on the phone 2.5 minutes before he told her he had to go see what the boy wanted. IIRC, Tiffany Romero had talked to her husband around 4:47 pm. The gunshots were heard a little after 5 pm. There wasn't 30 minutes to spare to spend with VR. This was all happening in a very short time interval.

imoo

Above highlighted by me, I do not agree that LE is diligently working on finding the truth, I think they are diligently working on pinning this to an 8 year old little boy.

Ya know, it could be (and I believe this is the case) that he was not lying necessarily (and if he was, maybe not to get out of the situation, but maybe because of something he wasn't supposed to do), I believe he was coerced, led and goaded and changed his story little by little at the guidance of law enforcement that he TRUSTED! As children we are taught to look up to, respect and rely on them to protect us, he is an 8 year old boy who is probably looking to please!

I don't understand why you will not even entertain the thought of this boy being innocent! It seems to me that you had him convicted and ready to lock him up long ago. I do not see the evidence that you see.
What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Why are a bunch of small town no training hick cops more reliable than an 8 year old child?

I believe along with many experts that they are not! Even if they didn't mean to lead him (which I don't believe), they did! They led him directly into the words that they wanted him to say!

I am frustrated because we live here, we know what these towns are like, we live amongst reservations (no, St John is not on a res, but that power plant is where ALL of those gainfully employeed people work, with few exceptions, also some other minoritys, Mexicans mostly), yet, nothing we say is taken as even possible. I do not presume to know how interactions between different groups of people or up along the Canadian border, or in the deep south, or the East coast but I have lived here all my life, and you can bet the dynamics of these small towns are something I do know about. It makes a difference.

If you moved this same case to Phoenix, it would be beeing handled 100% different.

///rant off, sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone, I apologize if I did.///

 

[Trino]

Above highlighted by me, I do not agree that LE is diligently working on finding the truth, I think they are diligently working on pinning this to an 8 year old little boy.

If you moved this same case to Phoenix, it would be beeing handled 100% different.

I understand you're close to the case and those involved, and your opinions reflect what you know about St. Johns, but I don't know that the judge believes a case that happened 225 miles away should be moved to Phoenix.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Above highlighted by me, I do not agree that LE is diligently working on finding the truth, I think they are diligently working on pinning this to an 8 year old little boy.

Ya know, it could be (and I believe this is the case) that he was not lying necessarily (and if he was, maybe not to get out of the situation, but maybe because of something he wasn't supposed to do), I believe he was coerced, led and goaded and changed his story little by little at the guidance of law enforcement that he TRUSTED! As children we are taught to look up to, respect and rely on them to protect us, he is an 8 year old boy who is probably looking to please!

I don't understand why you will not even entertain the thought of this boy being innocent! It seems to me that you had him convicted and ready to lock him up long ago. I do not see the evidence that you see.
What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Why are a bunch of small town no training hick cops more reliable than an 8 year old child?

I believe along with many experts that they are not! Even if they didn't mean to lead him (which I don't believe), they did! They led him directly into the words that they wanted him to say!

I am frustrated because we live here, we know what these towns are like, we live amongst reservations (no, St John is not on a res, but that power plant is where ALL of those gainfully employed people work, with few exceptions, also some other minorities, Mexicans mostly), yet, nothing we say is taken as even possible. I do not presume to know how interactions between different groups of people or up along the Canadian border, or in the deep south, or the East coast but I have lived here all my life, and you can bet the dynamics of these small towns are something I do know about. It makes a difference.

If you moved this same case to Phoenix, it would be being handled 100% different.

///rant off, sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone, I apologize if I did.///

Good Morning, azmama.

Everyone has their own opinions. I just don't see anything that makes me think he is innocent of this crime, sorry. IUPG is a judicial standard that must be given to a defendant, by jurors or a Judge that sits on a case. It does not apply to the pubic at large. We are not bound under any laws that say we have to presume anything.

I will be the first to say, that LE dropped the ball the very first night when the murders occurred. No one is ever ruled out as a suspect when a case first happens. They should have immediately taken his clothing, shoes and done GSR testing on his hands that night, without fail, instead of assuming he was just a witness to the crimes. I agree that is small town mentality sometimes when it comes to the police.

I respectfully don't have the same interpretation of the confession as you do. This boy was actually leading the two female officers many times. They couldn't keep up with all he was saying because after he said one thing then he would say something else that contradicted it. I think because they were small town officers they were the ones naive and most of the time they let the kid lead the conversation and he seemed to enjoy doing that and was quite talkative. But when suspects are allowed to chatter on they will say thing that will come back to haunt them when the evidence starts coming back in.

While the three dozen gunshot particles found is debatable it is a significant amount especially taking into account that he had already come in contact with many family members after the murder, which would help to remove some of them as he hugged and touch others. I remember in the Phil Spector murder case they only found one or two particles of GSR on him. So three dozens is a heck of a lot to be found, especially collected the day after.

I pulled up the data on St. Johns not too long ago and it was from 2000 until now and it showed no murders happening in that town. I don't think this LE knew how to handle this double homicide suspect. What redeems them some what though they immediately asked of assistance from the Az. DPR. I truly think they did the best they could, especially having to not only deal with two homicides, but probably one of the youngest defendants charged in our history, to date.

imoo