AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[southcitymom]

I hope this child doesn't serve any time in the state juvenile corrections facility either, but I still think he is guilty.

 

[fran]

I hope this child doesn't serve any time in the state juvenile corrections facility either, but I still think he is guilty.

Hi southcitymom!

An attorney refers to the 'hook' that lures the jury into a guilty verdict. For one jurist it could be one circumstance or piece of evidence while another it could be something entirely different.

Do you have a 'hook?' What makes you believe, beyond a doubt this child is guilty?

Just for discussion sake.


fran

PS....for discussion sake, I don't know if this child is guilty. I haven't seen a 'hook' yet,.......for me.....fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The fact is, the def attorney said his "client could serve time in a county facility, but ``we certainly don't think'' he will. Although there is a link to this statement previously and it was a 'corrected' statement at that, still makes it wrong, because it's incomplete. The 'correct' version is linked below.

This statement would indicate in it's entirety, IMHO, that it's the def attorney's desire to have the child receive mental treatment, but NOT serve in a penal setting. Heaven only knows this child needs psychiactric treatment, IF not as the killer, but at the LEAST, for the way he's been treated since he came upon the murdered bodies of the two victims. The way he's been treated by the very people he SHOULD have been able to trust, the police and courts.

There is no guarantee the def attorney will be able to meet his desires. I guess it's up to the judge. But then, could the def then reject and request to go to trial if he doesn't like the judges decision of even a short time of juvenile detention? I dunno. I don't know if it would by then, be too late to pull his new plea to the court.

Speculation that the child may have confessed to someone else besides the bogus confession is just that, speculation. This is the same type of rumors that have been flying off the shelves of this courthouse about the child and later repeated as fact. These 'rumors' and NOT fact are what many are using as their basis of opinion the child is guilty. It serves no purpose as to the truth to the matter but merely to insight towards the alleged guilt of the accused.

If you have a link that this is in fact true, the child confessed to anyone else other than what is portrayed on the distributed video, please provide it so this can be put to rest and deciphered as 'rumor' or fact.

Repeating over and over again one's opinion of something NOT in fact, will NOT make it so. We do NOT know this child ever confessed to anyone other than the two lying police officers that betrayed him. This is how gossip begins.

The def has been at the mercy of this court, this judge from the get go. Even when he attempted to hire a doctor to work with the child, the judge whined about the hourly rate. The def even offered to pay for the difference that the State would allow. In the end, the def got the doctor to agree to treat the child at a reduced fee and it was only THEN that the court authorized the child's treatement.

The def does NOT have an open check book like the pros does. It's ludicrous at best to ASSUME that the def has at their disposal, a myriad of private detectives and such to counter the pros claims and follow up with every 'tom, dick, and harry,' that has made baseless accusations against this child. Yes, even the def attorney's fee is paid by the State in this case, but most likely at a set rate. NOT unlimited funds like the State.

The FACT is, this child and his future, is being held by the pros and this judge to do with as they will. It's now up to the def to do what's best for this child. Take a CHANCE and go to trial, with the scores of doctors, institutions and strangers picking at his brain and then to have the State hold back a charge and go over this again, in 6 years? and take a CHANCE on the possibility of life in prison.....and even IF found innocent, his entire childhood will have been ruined by an over-zealous, rush to judgment pros and years of court hearings, trials, doctors, possible incarceration while all this is going on....or plea to a lessor charge, no contest,......and get psychiactric treatment and a clear record when he is 18?

Hostage,............he most likely has no choice. Then there's the FACT that there's possibly a double murderer walking among the innocent citizens of St. Johns, Arizona. An enemy among them.

JMHO
fran



http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1085114&r=1

................snip..................

Prosecutors have not commented on the plea agreement, and defense attorneys have said little other than that it would assure the boy spends no time in the state juvenile corrections system. Brewer said his client could serve time in a county facility, but ``we certainly don't think'' he will.

Perhaps you can tell me where I ever stated it as a fact that he told someone after the murders? Or better yet, are you just saying that only you and others can have entitled opinions and I can't? I am a little confused by the anger and dripping sarcasm, you seem to possess toward others who do not agree with your theories.

Of course the defense attorney desires that he not serve in detention. I am sure he had the same desire when he said he would like to see this boy exonerated. Doesn't mean either is going to happen though.

Seems like whatever decision this boy makes is not in the hands of the DA or Judge but his own from what his own attorney has stated.

Where is it a FACT that another murderer is walking around loose?

I don't think his life was ruined by the State of Arizona. I think he ruined it himself, when he threatened, planned and carried out the murder of his father just like he said he was going to do.

Judge Roca knows all the evidence and he would never consider a plea deal or even allow a hearing, where the boy admits guilt, if the evidence didn't support it imo.

imoo

 

[SoobsinMI]

The def does NOT have an open check book like the pros does. It's ludicrous at best to ASSUME that the def has at their disposal, a myriad of private detectives and such to counter the pros claims and follow up with every 'tom, dick, and harry,' that has made baseless accusations against this child. Yes, even the def attorney's fee is paid by the State in this case, but most likely at a set rate. NOT unlimited funds like the State.

I agree, Fran. I think it's silly to say that the prosecution would want to plea, to save money, yet claim there is no incentive for the defense to do so. Having a court appointed ANYTHING, requires the approval of the court, including that for fees.

 

[southcitymom]

Hi southcitymom!

An attorney refers to the 'hook' that lures the jury into a guilty verdict. For one jurist it could be one circumstance or piece of evidence while another it could be something entirely different.

Do you have a 'hook?' What makes you believe, beyond a doubt this child is guilty?

Just for discussion sake.


fran

PS....for discussion sake, I don't know if this child is guilty. I haven't seen a 'hook' yet,.......for me.....fran

Of course there is doubt because all of us on this board don't have all the facts. I would be delighted (as delighted as you can be when two people are murdered in cold blood) if someone else turned out to be the perp, but nothing points that way to me.

The young man's confession is one thing that is important to me. I know you discredit it and I agree that it would not make it into a court of law. I know gobs of 8 year old boys from all walks of life. I cannot imagine one of them giving a confession like that if he had, say, walked in and discovered the bodies or his father and the renter. My gut tells me that is not the confession of a traumatized child. It is the confession of a child who has done something wrong and does not want to get caught.

Another damaging piece of information is the renter telling his wife "The boy is calling me inside - I need to go."

The information of his anger at being punished, the fact that he had threatened his father before, the fact that he was skilled with guns are some other things. The timing of it all. It all just fits together in my gut.

I think you and I have a difference in perspectives that plays into this. I think you believe the police and the state have screwed up royally and are out to railroad this child and close the case without doing their homework.

I agree that mistakes have been made (I personally have never followed a case where mistakes weren't made), but I don't for one second think the adults involved in this child's legal case - the police, the Judge, the Pros, his defense attorney, his GAL (or other court rep), the psychs, etc... - want to pin this murder on an 8 year old child and let the "real perps" go free. I truly believe they are all doing what they can to resolve this as well as it can be resolved - with the interests of the child and the interests of the community taken into consideration.

I believe they all have information that we do not have and I believe that information is strong enough that all these people feel assured of his guilt. I do not expect to see all of this information and that does not bother me. I understand that it may bother others.

I cannot speak for others who believe he is guilty, but I am incapable of giving up hope for an 8-year-old boy regardless of what he has done. At that age, the brain is barely even formed and I don't believe this child understands murder from our mature, adult perspective. Even if he knows dead is forever and even if he planned this, he does not "get" it. So I hope that he will get help and I believe that those involved in working out his play will try to get him help.

We will just have to see.

 

[southcitymom]

Hi southcitymom!

An attorney refers to the 'hook' that lures the jury into a guilty verdict. For one jurist it could be one circumstance or piece of evidence while another it could be something entirely different.

Do you have a 'hook?' What makes you believe, beyond a doubt this child is guilty?

Just for discussion sake.


fran

PS....for discussion sake, I don't know if this child is guilty. I haven't seen a 'hook' yet,.......for me.....fran

ETA - I have sat on two juries (drug trafficking case) - some people get pulled in by a hook, but a lot of people don't hone in on any specific sexy piece of information - they just get an overall impression after the picture has been painted! I LOVED jury duty!

 

[Openmind]

southcitymom

I cannot speak for others who believe he is guilty, but I am incapable of giving up hope for an 8-year-old boy regardless of what he has done. At that age, the brain is barely even formed and I don't believe this child understands murder from our mature, adult perspective. Even if he knows dead is forever and even if he planned this, he does not "get" it. So I hope that he will get help and I believe that those involved in working out his play will try to get him help.

Totally agree.

 

[Trino]

Fran, if the boy is guilty and receives nothing, there certainly is the possibility a murderer could be walking around St. Johns.

 

[fran]

Of course there is doubt because all of us on this board don't have all the facts. I would be delighted (as delighted as you can be when two people are murdered in cold blood) if someone else turned out to be the perp, but nothing points that way to me.

The young man's confession is one thing that is important to me. I know you discredit it and I agree that it would not make it into a court of law. I know gobs of 8 year old boys from all walks of life. I cannot imagine one of them giving a confession like that if he had, say, walked in and discovered the bodies or his father and the renter. My gut tells me that is not the confession of a traumatized child. It is the confession of a child who has done something wrong and does not want to get caught.

Another damaging piece of information is the renter telling his wife "The boy is calling me inside - I need to go."

The information of his anger at being punished, the fact that he had threatened his father before, the fact that he was skilled with guns are some other things. The timing of it all. It all just fits together in my gut.

I think you and I have a difference in perspectives that plays into this. I think you believe the police and the state have screwed up royally and are out to railroad this child and close the case without doing their homework.

I agree that mistakes have been made (I personally have never followed a case where mistakes weren't made), but I don't for one second think the adults involved in this child's legal case - the police, the Judge, the Pros, his defense attorney, his GAL (or other court rep), the psychs, etc... - want to pin this murder on an 8 year old child and let the "real perps" go free. I truly believe they are all doing what they can to resolve this as well as it can be resolved - with the interests of the child and the interests of the community taken into consideration.

I believe they all have information that we do not have and I believe that information is strong enough that all these people feel assured of his guilt. I do not expect to see all of this information and that does not bother me. I understand that it may bother others.

I cannot speak for others who believe he is guilty, but I am incapable of giving up hope for an 8-year-old boy regardless of what he has done. At that age, the brain is barely even formed and I don't believe this child understands murder from our mature, adult perspective. Even if he knows dead is forever and even if he planned this, he does not "get" it. So I hope that he will get help and I believe that those involved in working out his play will try to get him help.

We will just have to see.

Thank you southcitymom for your perspective. I appreciate your point of view.

I presently live with my 8 yo grandson. Although I totally cannot see him doing anything even close to this crime, I believe I could see how someone, an authoritive figure, could possibly talk him into 'confessing.' Oh, like this child, many of the facts would be totally incorrect, but he could perhaps end up just like this child.Please Google the Michael Crow video. Very enlightening. He was, IIRC, 14 when he confessed to murdering his sister. But alas, he was lucky there was DNA and he was released.

It's not that I can't see a child this age committing an act such as this, but it's the way it allegedly went down and the alleged premeditation, that makes this impossible to have happened the way, just in my opinion, of course.

I don't believe this child has the mental capacity to count, over a period of perhaps months, to 1000............he'd so be done before 100. Plus, the alleged 1000 spanking ledger was never located, making it more probable, this piece of evidence NEVER existed.This was the pros {proof or motive} to charge the child with 'premeditation. This alleged 'evidence' is nowhere to be found,...............yet the pros continues to claim premeditation.

Another alleged {proof of guilt} was the pros contention that the child told the grandmother the first night, that his 'dad' had been shot in the chest. The pros claimed in court documents, only the killer would know this fact, because the body had not been moved. Guess what? His dad was NOT shot in the chest at all. Again, this alleged 'evidence of guilt' is NOT true,.........yet the pros has not said a word about this 'misinformation.'

Although some say they believe this child could possibly have shot, release, load, close, , and then fire, nine more times running through the same process, before two grown, perfectly fit men could overcome him,..........it's very improbable. He wouldn't have the coordination to do this, much less the agility and power to jump all over the house, up and down the stairs, firing at one victim from front, back, high, low, and then to shoot the second victim, with such accuracy, although the shots would have had to have been at the least, 6 to 7 seconds apart, to have shot the victim almost in the exact same spot twice.

Oh, and let's not forget that not ONE live round was found on the floor. So we are to believe that this child is soooo extrodinary, that he wouldn't even mistakenly drop a shell.

The rumors of bloody clothes, underwear and such is untrue. There is a drop of blood on his pants. But I don't believe I've seen any forensics returned on it. But, it wouldn't really matter if it was one of the victims, as the child said he layed next to his dad and cried. He said 1/2 hour.........but if you know 8 yo's, you know how they throw out numbers, time, whatever, with abandon. Accuracy, forgetaboutit....they're just sayin'.

I honestly feel guilty about putting down this PD. But after watching the alleged confession video, reading every document I've been able to locate, I can come to no other conclusion except that this PD royally messed up this investigation. Not only that, I believe they're missing key 'clues' pointing towards the {possibly} real killer.

Yes, I do have a suspect in MY MIND, and NO, I'm not going to call the St. Johns PD and tell them what I think......LOL,............because THEY have all the documents. IF they can't see it, they're certainly not going to listen to me. j/k

I guess at the end, I just feel that there's way too many unknowns in this case to point towards this child,.............yet. I say that,........because, like everyone else, I too don't know everything so there's no way I can possibly point towards this child. FWIW, even if they do come up with a workable plea deal tomorrow, IF I don't see answers to some of the questions that I have about the case, I would really worry that they MAY not have the right person.

Thank goodness I don't live in Arizona. I might even tell my nephew the next time we get together for a visit, maybe he could visit me here!

Let's hope tomorrow comes up with something positive. I really had something in particular in mind, but alas, it hasn't happened, and thankfully I wasn't holding my breath!

JMHO
fran

 

[fran]

ETA - I have sat on two juries (drug trafficking case) - some people get pulled in by a hook, but a lot of people don't hone in on any specific sexy piece of information - they just get an overall impression after the picture has been painted! I LOVED jury duty!

Totally OT

I am so jealous that you've been on jury duty. Seriously.

Almost two years ago I had my big chance at jury duty. I even got to the jury box. But,..........I blew it and the JUDGE dismissed me. LOL, I think the pros and def didn't want to use up their dismissal points or whatever you call it.

My daughter is a forensic chemist and does 'expert testimony.' Wouldn't you know,.............I believe one of her collegues was one of the 'expert' witnesses for the pros and well...............conflict of interest and all that!

now ON Topic!

Anyway, I understand what you say about the big picture and all that. LOL, of course I don't think I need to tell you that I forgot to pay my cable bill and this program just isn't coming in for me. :slap:

JMHO
fran

 

[Fairy1]

I have been trying to avoid generalizations in this case simply because there is nothing even remotely ordinary about it. We could count on one hand cases involving 8-year-old murderers. I honestly don't know if he is guilty or not, but I'm just not willing to write off this little boy just yet. And...if he is the killer, THERE IS A REASON!!! No 8-year-old, with no documented issues prior wakes up one day and decides to kill his father. Sorry, just doesn't happen.

 

[fran]

Wow, I'm really surprised the child is pleading guilty to anything, even 'negligent homicide.'

I don't know if this is true, but this is what is being reported. I'll accept it as a done deal when it's signed, but I don't agree with it. Like his attorney said, no one is going to be happy with it.

Wonder if the judge will sign off on it?

JMHO
fran


http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepa...local-news-021209-change-of-plea.cbaf956.html

St. Johns child murder suspect to plead guilty to 1 charge

ST JOHNS -- 3TV has learned that the 9-year-old St. Johns boy accused of double murder will change his plea tomorrow in a deal brokered last week.

<<<<<<<more at link>>>>>>>>

 

[Fairy1]

What a travesty.

 

[fran]

What a travesty.

I'm not sure if it's true or not. At first I thought he was getting this info directly from the child's attorney, but if you read the article, he's getting it from someone 'close to the case.'

I know recently there was a case where someone 'close to the case' revealed info and it got out, that turned into completely the opposite. So I guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow.

I sure hope they answer the 'open' questions in the case. I still can't see it. I know they're trying to work out what's best for everyone, but I'm soooo not sure this is it.

JMHO
fran

 

[Fairy1]

I'm not sure if it's true or not. At first I thought he was getting this info directly from the child's attorney, but if you read the article, he's getting it from someone 'close to the case.'

I know recently there was a case where someone 'close to the case' revealed info and it got out, that turned into completely the opposite. So I guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow.

I sure hope they answer the 'open' questions in the case. I still can't see it. I know they're trying to work out what's best for everyone, but I'm soooo not sure this is it.

JMHO
fran

I can't see it either Fran. IDK what to think. My heart is breaking for this child...

 

[liljim]

wow, if true.

so obviously they would be dropping the charge regarding his father, but are they also agreeing to not re-file it at a later date as had been mentioned before?

i am also very interested to hear why the charge will be "negligent homicide", i suppose if the legal battle ends we may get some sort of explanation for what happened. maybe.

 

[MeoW333]

Negligent homicide, huh? That's allowing someone to die. Say if the boy's story was true or they are taking it from the interview that it is true, and the boy came upon his father and Tim and "put them out of their misery" if they were already shot, that sounds like negligent homicide. It sure is a dropped down charge, less than 1st or 2nd degree murder and kinda similiar to involuntary manslaughter.

 

[MeoW333]

"Three versions of manslaughter (involuntary) exist. Involuntary manslaughter is separated into criminal reckless manslaughter, (gross) criminal negligence manslaughter, and unlawful or misdemeanor manslaughter. They vary by their degree of Mens Rea, or the mental mindset of the person committing the crime. A person who is held aware is also viewed more responsible for his or her actions."
http://www.iejs.com/Law/Criminal_Law/Negligent_Homicide-Manslaughter.htm

 

[southcitymom]

Thank you southcitymom for your perspective. I appreciate your point of view.

I presently live with my 8 yo grandson. Although I totally cannot see him doing anything even close to this crime, I believe I could see how someone, an authoritive figure, could possibly talk him into 'confessing.' Oh, like this child, many of the facts would be totally incorrect, but he could perhaps end up just like this child.Please Google the Michael Crow video. Very enlightening. He was, IIRC, 14 when he confessed to murdering his sister. But alas, he was lucky there was DNA and he was released.

It's not that I can't see a child this age committing an act such as this, but it's the way it allegedly went down and the alleged premeditation, that makes this impossible to have happened the way, just in my opinion, of course.

I don't believe this child has the mental capacity to count, over a period of perhaps months, to 1000............he'd so be done before 100. Plus, the alleged 1000 spanking ledger was never located, making it more probable, this piece of evidence NEVER existed.This was the pros {proof or motive} to charge the child with 'premeditation. This alleged 'evidence' is nowhere to be found,...............yet the pros continues to claim premeditation.

Another alleged {proof of guilt} was the pros contention that the child told the grandmother the first night, that his 'dad' had been shot in the chest. The pros claimed in court documents, only the killer would know this fact, because the body had not been moved. Guess what? His dad was NOT shot in the chest at all. Again, this alleged 'evidence of guilt' is NOT true,.........yet the pros has not said a word about this 'misinformation.'

Although some say they believe this child could possibly have shot, release, load, close, , and then fire, nine more times running through the same process, before two grown, perfectly fit men could overcome him,..........it's very improbable. He wouldn't have the coordination to do this, much less the agility and power to jump all over the house, up and down the stairs, firing at one victim from front, back, high, low, and then to shoot the second victim, with such accuracy, although the shots would have had to have been at the least, 6 to 7 seconds apart, to have shot the victim almost in the exact same spot twice.

Oh, and let's not forget that not ONE live round was found on the floor. So we are to believe that this child is soooo extrodinary, that he wouldn't even mistakenly drop a shell.

The rumors of bloody clothes, underwear and such is untrue. There is a drop of blood on his pants. But I don't believe I've seen any forensics returned on it. But, it wouldn't really matter if it was one of the victims, as the child said he layed next to his dad and cried. He said 1/2 hour.........but if you know 8 yo's, you know how they throw out numbers, time, whatever, with abandon. Accuracy, forgetaboutit....they're just sayin'.

I honestly feel guilty about putting down this PD. But after watching the alleged confession video, reading every document I've been able to locate, I can come to no other conclusion except that this PD royally messed up this investigation. Not only that, I believe they're missing key 'clues' pointing towards the {possibly} real killer.

Yes, I do have a suspect in MY MIND, and NO, I'm not going to call the St. Johns PD and tell them what I think......LOL,............because THEY have all the documents. IF they can't see it, they're certainly not going to listen to me. j/k

I guess at the end, I just feel that there's way too many unknowns in this case to point towards this child,.............yet. I say that,........because, like everyone else, I too don't know everything so there's no way I can possibly point towards this child. FWIW, even if they do come up with a workable plea deal tomorrow, IF I don't see answers to some of the questions that I have about the case, I would really worry that they MAY not have the right person.

Thank goodness I don't live in Arizona. I might even tell my nephew the next time we get together for a visit, maybe he could visit me here!

Let's hope tomorrow comes up with something positive. I really had something in particular in mind, but alas, it hasn't happened, and thankfully I wasn't holding my breath!

JMHO
fran

Fran, I do appreciate your points and perspective. I will say that I am very familiar with Michael Crow's case - and fairly well-versed in the issue of false confessions from minors. As a general rule, I do not believe children should be interviewed without an adult or guardian present. But I understand why it happens - the cops needed to talk to the boy because he obviously had information concerning the crime and his Mother had fled town.

In Crow's video and some other false confessions, the confusion and strong-arming and manipulation of the child is very obvious to me. Not so (for me) with this 8-year-old's tapes. I can barely compare the two cases. Believe me, I can think of situations where an 8-year-old is led into confessing in the face of an authority figure, but that is NOT what I see when I review this boy's tapes. In every other false confession of minor tape I have ever seen, the child is crying, obviously upset, protesting "No - I found them that way!" while the cops hit home again and again - not so with this boy's confession - at least not to me.

You are being a true sleuth and wanting answers that are not forthcoming to evidence that is confusing to you. I have faith that many of these other red herrings have been run down and dismissed to the satisfaction of the PD and the Pros. It's just a difference of perspective. Too much of the boy's story fits with what I believe to be the other facts - and this is what leads me to my impression. As a general rule, if I am walking down the street and hear the clip clop of hooves behind me, I turn around and expect to find a horse - not a zebra or a unicorn. In this case - the evidence points to a horse.

My knowledge of guns is fairly limited, but this child's was not. He had been shooting since he was 5 years old. He was a skilled hunter. Yes - I more than believe that he could overpower these two men with that gun. That has never been a sticking point for me - it's not like they were both coming at him. He took down his Dad first and then called the renter in to take him down. In both shootings, he had the weaponry, the skill and the element of surprise.

I highly doubt we will be privy to all the facts that lead them away from other theories in this case, so you may not get satisfaction in that regard.

 

[southcitymom]

Totally OT

I am so jealous that you've been on jury duty. Seriously.

Almost two years ago I had my big chance at jury duty. I even got to the jury box. But,..........I blew it and the JUDGE dismissed me. LOL, I think the pros and def didn't want to use up their dismissal points or whatever you call it.

My daughter is a forensic chemist and does 'expert testimony.' Wouldn't you know,.............I believe one of her collegues was one of the 'expert' witnesses for the pros and well...............conflict of interest and all that!

now ON Topic!

Anyway, I understand what you say about the big picture and all that. LOL, of course I don't think I need to tell you that I forgot to pay my cable bill and this program just isn't coming in for me. :slap:

JMHO
fran

OT - I have also helped strike juries (I was a paralegal for many years) and you never can really know why counsel chooses to strike you or to keep you - it is a strange science, choosing a jury..

I was surprised I wound up on the juries I did, but it was very very and I learned so much both times. I was even foreman on the juries -