AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[southcitymom]

Had he been convicted of murder in the first degree on both men,as a juvenile,his sentence would be the same, IMO

He is home with his mother only until he is sentenced. One article I read even claimed he was out on bail....(which I found incredibly odd, if true.)

Once he is fully psychologically evaluated the court will determine if he needs a secure residential treatment facility. I suspect that's where he will be going for the next year to 18 months. He may even spend some more time in detention.

I HIGHLY doubt this boy will remain at home with his mother and go to out patient therapy once a week.

I doubt this too - they are still hammering out the specifics.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I doubt this too - they are still hammering out the specifics.

I think it's gonna be tough finding him a residential treatment facility. Many won't want him.

Can you imagine the uproar the parents of the other children would cause when they learn this boy is living with theirs?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Sounds like a plan to me. Although IMO this is not punishment enough for taking two lives, realistically in today's world, this is probably the best that can be done. While I don't personally know Eryn, it's a bit disconcerting to think of her raising the boy right now.

Now that the boy has plea bargained, is Eryn free to discuss the case with the boy?

Yep, she can talk to the boy about whatever she wants now. I have the funny feeling they are going to ignore the elephant in the room.

 

[gitana1]

I think it's gonna be tough finding him a residential treatment facility. Many won't want him.

Can you imagine the uproar the parents of the other children would cause when they learn this boy is living with theirs?

Not really. He'll likely be with slightly older kids who have killed or have molested other chilrden. There are plenty of younger children as well who are seriously disturbed and in treatment. Many are from the foster care system, etc. They're not putting this kid in a facility with a bunch of kids from maverage homes with mild emotional problems, IMO. There are some pretty intense programs out there.

 

[gitana1]

That doesn't even make sense. Why offer a plea deal, that leaves the suspect free on probation with his mom, if you think he is guilty of killing his father??? If all close are so sure he did it, then try him and put him away for killing two men... but you can't do that if you don't have a solid case imo.

I think it would be very hard to find this boy guilty with the evidence they would be allowed to introduce. But, it is a judge, rather than jury trial, so that makes it easier. But, this kid is not going to be free on probation. He is likely going to be in the system for years, with very intensive treatment.
I'm glad of that, because I do suspect that this child did commit the killings but it is unclear why and no matter what the reason, he's going to need treatment, even if he was a victim, somehow fighting back against something.
I don't see any signs that he was seriously disturbed prior to this act. I don't know why some posters are saying he dislikes authority and won't listen to anything his mother says. I haven't seen anything to suggest that. Kid did well in school, no behavioral issues there, people who know him suggest he was fairly normal. But, I have not been following the case closely lately. I do notice, however, that some people on both sides of the argument tend to take hearsay or a rumor of evidence or a bit of known evidence and make assumptions based on that, or present it as irrefutable fact.
In any event, I stick to my guns that if this child did this, his brain rendered him incapable of knowing what he was actually doing, or forming intent and that when his brain matures enough to understand the magnitude of his actions, he could lose his mind without intensive help.
I think AZ created a good, solid plan that will help this child to deal with what has happened and become a solid citizen. I read a book once about a 14 year old boy with anger issues who stalked and viciously stabbed to death two little girls that were neighbors of his (Colorado case), and he was put in an intensive treatment program for violent child offenders. The treatment program was described. Very tough stuff. He was forced to have pictures of the little girls in his cell and to face what he did, how they suffered, how their mom and dad (who had no other children) suffer, etc. Kids in the program had to follow amazingly strict rules of conduct in order to have any kind of perks like wearing regular clothes, visits from family, watching t.v., time to play in the yard, etc. Behavior, attitude, etc., were seriously monitored and lying, especially about the crimes they committed, was not tolerated at all. When the boy got out, at age 18 or so, he moved to California where he stole some tires, IIRC, but after that, he has not shown up in the news, or the system, at all, from what I can see. I think he'd be in his 30's now. Another example is the boy who at 15? killed his mom and dad - wev'e talked about him on this board, can't remember his name - no treatment, just juvenile hall. He got out and married, had a child and before he died was known as the most loving, amazing, giving man. There were masses of sobbing people at his funeral.
My point is is that at this age, this child has a lot of hope, no matter what the circumstance. If he killed these two men, no matter the reason, there is still time to adjust his brain chemistry. He is not an adult. He is not a bad seed.

 

[Fairy1]

Thank you so much, gitana1, for that very diplomatic and hopeful post! Truly, none of us really know what happened that day and probably never will. But this child is 8 - not 14 or 15 - and there is a HUGE difference. I don't believe he is a bad seed, sociopath or psychopath. I want to believe that, if he is the killer, something significant triggered his actions. That's something else we may never know. I sincerely hope this child will get whatever help he needs in the next several years and can grow into a well-adjusted, productive, good man. Whatever did happen to make him kill him, I do believe he loved his father very much and that is what he will have to deal with for the rest of his life.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Not really. He'll likely be with slightly older kids who have killed or have molested other children. There are plenty of younger children as well who are seriously disturbed and in treatment. Many are from the foster care system, etc. They're not putting this kid in a facility with a bunch of kids from maverage homes with mild emotional problems, IMO. There are some pretty intense programs out there.

His attorney stated it is very improbable that he will be placed in a State Detention but could do time in county detention. If so, imo he could receive his mental therapy there until released. Maybe this is where they plan to start his extensive assessment.

If this is in St. John, there hasn't been a murder before these in 2 decades and the local detention center only has 13 kids. I highly doubt that they are anything like this boy and he is the sole youth that has done this severity of crimes.

So I do understand what Linda is saying and I do think the other parents of children that may be there, would be very concerned and would want him kept away from their children, who probably have done petty crimes.

But I hope his treatment is successful. It is in his best interest and also the best interest of society which will have to deal with him in 9 years.

I think both the defense and state have tried to find some logical explanation why he did this but came up empty.


"Part of the problem is I don't think any of us know what his problems are, if any, and how to solve them," Ron Wood said.

So they hope that the onion skin can be peeled away and find out why a child this young would be capable of doing something this heinous.

So let the therapy begin............





imo

 

[southcitymom]

I think it would be very hard to find this boy guilty with the evidence they would be allowed to introduce. But, it is a judge, rather than jury trial, so that makes it easier. But, this kid is not going to be free on probation. He is likely going to be in the system for years, with very intensive treatment.
I'm glad of that, because I do suspect that this child did commit the killings but it is unclear why and no matter what the reason, he's going to need treatment, even if he was a victim, somehow fighting back against something.
I don't see any signs that he was seriously disturbed prior to this act. I don't know why some posters are saying he dislikes authority and won't listen to anything his mother says. I haven't seen anything to suggest that. Kid did well in school, no behavioral issues there, people who know him suggest he was fairly normal. But, I have not been following the case closely lately. I do notice, however, that some people on both sides of the argument tend to take hearsay or a rumor of evidence or a bit of known evidence and make assumptions based on that, or present it as irrefutable fact.
In any event, I stick to my guns that if this child did this, his brain rendered him incapable of knowing what he was actually doing, or forming intent and that when his brain matures enough to understand the magnitude of his actions, he could lose his mind without intensive help.
I think AZ created a good, solid plan that will help this child to deal with what has happened and become a solid citizen. I read a book once about a 14 year old boy with anger issues who stalked and viciously stabbed to death two little girls that were neighbors of his (Colorado case), and he was put in an intensive treatment program for violent child offenders. The treatment program was described. Very tough stuff. He was forced to have pictures of the little girls in his cell and to face what he did, how they suffered, how their mom and dad (who had no other children) suffer, etc. Kids in the program had to follow amazingly strict rules of conduct in order to have any kind of perks like wearing regular clothes, visits from family, watching t.v., time to play in the yard, etc. Behavior, attitude, etc., were seriously monitored and lying, especially about the crimes they committed, was not tolerated at all. When the boy got out, at age 18 or so, he moved to California where he stole some tires, IIRC, but after that, he has not shown up in the news, or the system, at all, from what I can see. I think he'd be in his 30's now. Another example is the boy who at 15? killed his mom and dad - wev'e talked about him on this board, can't remember his name - no treatment, just juvenile hall. He got out and married, had a child and before he died was known as the most loving, amazing, giving man. There were masses of sobbing people at his funeral.
My point is is that at this age, this child has a lot of hope, no matter what the circumstance. If he killed these two men, no matter the reason, there is still time to adjust his brain chemistry. He is not an adult. He is not a bad seed.

Great post. I too have a lot of hope for this child.

 

[Fairy1]

His attorney stated it is very improbable that he will be placed in a State Detention but could do time in county detention. If so, imo he could receive his mental therapy there until released. Maybe this is where they plan to start his extensive assessment.

If this is in St. John, there hasn't been a murder before these in 2 decades and the local detention center only has 13 kids. I highly doubt that they are anything like this boy and he is the sole youth that has done this severity of crimes.

So I do understand what Linda is saying and I do think the other parents of children that may be there, would be very concerned and would want him kept away from their children, who probably have done petty crimes.

But I hope his treatment is successful. It is in his best interest and also the best interest of society which will have to deal with him in 9 years.

I think both the defense and state have tried to find some logical explanation why he did this but came up empty.


"Part of the problem is I don't think any of us know what his problems are, if any, and how to solve them," Ron Wood said.

So they hope that the onion skin can be peeled away and find out why a child this young would be capable of doing something this heinous.

So let the therapy begin............





imo

OBE - I sincerely respect your opinions - as well as all others who have weighed in on this case. IMO, Linda had a personally bad experience with an 11 year-old child who came from highly disturbing circumstances. That does not seem to be the case here, though we may never know. All any of us can bring to the discussions here are our own personal experiences and what we have learned along the way. I, personally, have never known a child this age capable of commiting murder or fully understanding the implications of it. Cases involving 8-year-old double murderers with no apparent motive are extremely few and far between. Wherever this child winds up for the next 9 years, I sincerely doubt there will be firearms and ammunition readily available to him and, God willing, he will be with mature, educated adults who know how to help him.

 

[fran]

I haven't had a chance to post for the past few days because my own RL issues needed to be dealt with. This will most likely be my last post on this thread. I say that because the case is basically closed, the child plead guilty to negligent homicide, one count, he's now at the mercy of the system. This is one of the cases on the pages of Websleuths, that upon resolution, makes me sick. Physically ill at the end result. I feel this way when I see a case NOT resolved,……….this crime is no different for me.

My personal opinion of this case hasn't changed, even with the recent plea deal. I still don't know who killed these men. I don't know if this child is guilty or not; but, I still tend to believe he's innocent and the victim of an over-zealous, incompetent PD, rush to judgment, aided by a judicial system stacked against the unsuspecting. In this case, an 8, now 9 yo, who may very well still believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. We’re to believe he understands the legal terms thrown out at him, the ramifications of everything he just agreed to?

FWIW, I don't believe the forensics or the 'forensic' technician investigating these results were incompetent or anything else. However, when deciphering the results, ALL results SHOULD be considered, not just 1/2. When there's UNIDENTIFIED prints on the alleged murder weapon, I would want to know who's they were before I'd find anyone guilty.

IE., news reports only broadcast that the child’s finger print was on the box of ammunition, but they completely failed to report on the UNIDENTIFIED prints……. ½ the story. IE…., news reports mentioned the RUMOR that the child had threatened to kill his dad. But they failed to mention the witness statements that mentioned RUMOR that it was a ‘disgruntled employee who was fired and Tim was involved,’ or RUMOR that Vince’s wife put the child up to it.’ (personally, I question that one) But only ½ the story.

People are so certain that the 100’s of pages we haven’t seen point to the child and no one else. Since when has a DA done a favor for an accused, changing a ‘double premeditated homicide’ down to ‘one count, negligible homicide’ that they were so certain they would prevail? IF you bother to read more than one news account about the plea deal, you’d see that some reports said, both sides were unsure they would win. Thus, the plea deal.

For those who believe the child is guilty, we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. I don’t like making decisions on only ½ the evidence,……but that’s just me…..It doesn't matter anyway,........this case is basically solved, for all intents and purposes. Unfortunately, there will be more and more and more, crime cases on the pages of Websleuths for us to move on to.

God help this child and family. They're going to need it. Although the case is finished, it's just the beginning for this child and these victim's families,..........and a final curtain for two men who were brutally murdered for an unknown reason, by an unknown assailant, as far as IMHO.

JMHO
fran

 

[Trino]

It appears there will be no statement from the boy or his attorney, and the public will not be privy to most of the information, which, of course, leads to misinformation.

IMO the court, as well as LE and the DA and others involved, know for certain the boy did this. They are not all hard core people who would take a plea agreement from a child to satisfy some personal vendetta. There is no conspiracy against a 9 year old child.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It appears there will be no statement from the boy or his attorney, and the public will not be privy to most of the information, which, of course, leads to misinformation.

IMO the court, as well as LE and the DA and others involved, know for certain the boy did this. They are not all hard core people who would take a plea agreement from a child to satisfy some personal vendetta. There is no conspiracy against a 9 year old child.

ITA! Trino.

This has been a nightmare for all legal parties. There is no conspiracy against this child. There is evidence and both sides know it all to well.

If the DA was out to get him he would never have given him a sweetheart deal. Everyone's main concern from the beginning has been to somehow assure that this child (who is so unlike other 9 year olds imo) is put in a structured environment with strict rules and guidelines in place and given extensive mental treatment. But the most important thing is to find out the "why" and what made him capable of this at such a young age. They are hoping the psychiatrists can learn what makes him tick and what is inside of him that made him capable.

The more knowledge they can learn about him the better they can treat him so he is no longer dangerous to himself or to others.

I feel Attorney Wood negotiated (wrangled) with the Prosecutor behind the scenes, that once the plea was stuck that further evidence against the boy would be sealed. It really serves no purpose and may only rile the citizens of St John up again. Both sides imo are trying to calm the situation down. It is only understandable that many in that town are not pleased with this outcome and to throw more evidence against the boy would only inflame them more and make them even more angry that it ended this way. The family members of Romans and Romeros, already know the brutal truth and they are the only ones that really matters and they will have to learn how to deal with it.

I do not envy Eryn one bit on her long 9 year road with her son and her young daughter to raise.

imo

 

[Ruflossn]

I have not followed this case from the very beginning. However, I have followed it for the past few weeks. I have read extensively on the opinions of others, the media reports and the forensic documents that have been made public. I am under the impression that the young child did kill his Father and Tim. The question for me is ~ Why? What in the world could have led an 8 yo boy to the conclusion that he wanted to kill 2 grown men? There is (imo) an entire different story attached to the one that has kept so many of us riveted to this very sad case. Yes, there was a murder committed against 2 relatively young men, they both died abruptly and tragically. Yes, they leave behind grieving family members and a community that is still full of unbelief. But, Why did these crimes occur? If this question can not be answered, I feel the young boy that has been held responsible will only find himself in a similar situation. The situation will be at a later time, the victims will have different names but the outcome of sadness, disbelief and anger will all be the same. This young boy needs help. Serious help. I pray that he gets it.

 

[azmama]

I haven't had a chance to post for the past few days because my own RL issues needed to be dealt with. This will most likely be my last post on this thread. I say that because the case is basically closed, the child plead guilty to negligent homicide, one count, he's now at the mercy of the system. This is one of the cases on the pages of Websleuths, that upon resolution, makes me sick. Physically ill at the end result. I feel this way when I see a case NOT resolved,……….this crime is no different for me.

My personal opinion of this case hasn't changed, even with the recent plea deal. I still don't know who killed these men. I don't know if this child is guilty or not; but, I still tend to believe he's innocent and the victim of an over-zealous, incompetent PD, rush to judgment, aided by a judicial system stacked against the unsuspecting. In this case, an 8, now 9 yo, who may very well still believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. We’re to believe he understands the legal terms thrown out at him, the ramifications of everything he just agreed to?

FWIW, I don't believe the forensics or the 'forensic' technician investigating these results were incompetent or anything else. However, when deciphering the results, ALL results SHOULD be considered, not just 1/2. When there's UNIDENTIFIED prints on the alleged murder weapon, I would want to know who's they were before I'd find anyone guilty.

IE., news reports only broadcast that the child’s finger print was on the box of ammunition, but they completely failed to report on the UNIDENTIFIED prints……. ½ the story. IE…., news reports mentioned the RUMOR that the child had threatened to kill his dad. But they failed to mention the witness statements that mentioned RUMOR that it was a ‘disgruntled employee who was fired and Tim was involved,’ or RUMOR that Vince’s wife put the child up to it.’ (personally, I question that one) But only ½ the story.

People are so certain that the 100’s of pages we haven’t seen point to the child and no one else. Since when has a DA done a favor for an accused, changing a ‘double premeditated homicide’ down to ‘one count, negligible homicide’ that they were so certain they would prevail? IF you bother to read more than one news account about the plea deal, you’d see that some reports said, both sides were unsure they would win. Thus, the plea deal.

For those who believe the child is guilty, we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. I don’t like making decisions on only ½ the evidence,……but that’s just me…..It doesn't matter anyway,........this case is basically solved, for all intents and purposes. Unfortunately, there will be more and more and more, crime cases on the pages of Websleuths for us to move on to.

God help this child and family. They're going to need it. Although the case is finished, it's just the beginning for this child and these victim's families,..........and a final curtain for two men who were brutally murdered for an unknown reason, by an unknown assailant, as far as IMHO.

JMHO
fran

I agree 100% with you Fran and could not have said it better myself.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I have not followed this case from the very beginning. However, I have followed it for the past few weeks. I have read extensively on the opinions of others, the media reports and the forensic documents that have been made public. I am under the impression that the young child did kill his Father and Tim. The question for me is ~ Why? What in the world could have led an 8 yo boy to the conclusion that he wanted to kill 2 grown men? There is (imo) an entire different story attached to the one that has kept so many of us riveted to this very sad case. Yes, there was a murder committed against 2 relatively young men, they both died abruptly and tragically. Yes, they leave behind grieving family members and a community that is still full of unbelief. But, Why did these crimes occur? If this question can not be answered, I feel the young boy that has been held responsible will only find himself in a similar situation. The situation will be at a later time, the victims will have different names but the outcome of sadness, disbelief and anger will all be the same. This young boy needs help. Serious help. I pray that he gets it.

ITA! I hope that he gets it and I hope it works when he does.

The most alarming thing about this case comes from the mouth of his own defense attorney, IMO, after months and months of investigation.

"Part of the problem is I don't think any of us know what his problems are, if any, and how to solve them," Ron Wood said.

IMO both sides have searched for any reasonable explanation why he did this and haven't come up with even an inkling of an idea what is wrong with this boy and even the defense admits they don't know how to solve it.

So each side had no recourse but to hope that the psychiatrists can uncover why a boy this age would commit double killings and intensively treat him so that it doesn't happen again.

imo

 

[chiperoni]

Thank you so much, gitana1, for that very diplomatic and hopeful post! Truly, none of us really know what happened that day and probably never will. But this child is 8 - not 14 or 15 - and there is a HUGE difference. I don't believe he is a bad seed, sociopath or psychopath. I want to believe that, if he is the killer, something significant triggered his actions. That's something else we may never know. I sincerely hope this child will get whatever help he needs in the next several years and can grow into a well-adjusted, productive, good man. Whatever did happen to make him kill him, I do believe he loved his father very much and that is what he will have to deal with for the rest of his life.

TNX gitana1 and Fairy1 So well said. His mother from the beginning stated that the boy loved his father. No matter what happened, he is going to miss his father and will slowly come to the realization his whole life has been tragically changed.

 

[Bobbisangel]

It seems to me that now days kids are murdering their parent or parents for petty reasons that really don't make a lot of sense. There have been very few cases lately where the child was abused and then murdered a parent. There was the boy that murdered his mother because he wanted to buy his girlfriend a new pair of . Another boy murdered his dad because he was tired of being told what to do and on and on it goes. Maybe that is what our society has come to. If you don't like something your parent/parents are doing just get rid of them. It happens daily.

Maybe this boy is telling the truth and he murdered his dad because he didn't like getting swats for not doing what he was told to do. It could be that simple which is pretty scary. I think us adults want there to be a deeper reason for murdering a parent but sometimes it is just a petty reason. There has been case after case with kids of all ages. Maybe life doesn't have meaning to these kids the way it used to. This is a ME generation and maybe we are just seeing the results of kids who want everything to be their way and when it isn't.....kill the parents/parent.

I hope this boy gets intensive therapy. To get it he is going to have to be in a setting where he has therapy daily along with group therapy, etc. He needs to be in a setting where they talk about their crimes and process them and learn from them. I don't think he will get this at home with his mother. Especially when she doesn't believe that he murdered the two men. A mother has to work with the therapist when their child is in outpatient therapy...not against the therapist. You are advised on how to handle certain things and that is what you do. You are advised about how to talk about the crime and his part in it. It is really important that the parent and therapist be on the same wave link. If not, therapy isn't going to do this boy any good at all.

 

[Trino]

http://www.twincities.com/allheadlines/ci_11756346

Please read this story. This boy (Feb 21 story) shot and killed his father's pregnant girlfriend, killing the baby, too. He has been arrested and charged with criminal homicide and criminal homicide of an unborn child.

The AZ boy was one month shy of being 9 years old. At what age does a youth become accountable for his/her actions?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.twincities.com/allheadlines/ci_11756346

Please read this story. This boy (Feb 21 story) shot and killed his father's pregnant girlfriend, killing the baby, too. He has been arrested and charged with criminal homicide and criminal homicide of an unborn child.

The AZ boy was one month shy of being 9 years old. At what age does a youth become accountable for his/her actions?

Great question.

And the 11 year old boy that murdered two out of jealousy is being tried as an adult.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jfUUCNd8ljeuLU4Qr3BF_5pwHXlwD96G62000

Strange too that in this case the bio mother said her son began to change around 2 months before this happened and that would have been around the time that Vinnie Romero remarried. Was petty jealousy at play here too?

imoo

 

[Trino]

Great question.

And the 11 year old boy that murdered two out of jealousy is being tried as an adult.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jfUUCNd8ljeuLU4Qr3BF_5pwHXlwD96G62000

Strange too that in this case the bio mother said her son began to change around 2 months before this happened and that would have been around the time that Vinnie Romero remarried. Was petty jealousy at play here too? imoo

Excellent question.