AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #5

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  • #141
http://www.ip-no.org/Connick_ Suppression_Report.pdf

Innocence Project New Orleans

According to available records, favorable evidence was withheld from 9 of the 36 (25%) men sentenced to death in Orleans Parish from 1973-2002. Four of those men were eventually exonerated, having been released only after serving a collective 43 years on death row. In other words, one in every four men sent to death row by the New Orleans District Attorney’s office from 1973-2002 was convicted after evidence that could have cast doubt on their guilt was withheld from them at trial. Four men, about 11%, were completely innocent.

An additional 25 non-capital cases were examinedin which allegations of evidence suppression were made.1 In 19 of these cases, courts found favorable evidence was indeed withheld, and in all others the court deemed that the allegations warranted an evidentiary hearing. Of these non-capital cases, four men were later found innocent of their crimes and released from life sentences after having served 70 collective years in Angola. Ten more had their convictions reversed. As a result, the State bore the expense of holding new trials for each of these men - a significant cost to taxpayers that would have been avoided had the District Attorney’s office not withheld evidence during the initial trial.

The imprisonment of the innocent is just one of many detrimental consequences of evidence suppression. There are several reasons why this practice must be confronted


I would say that 25% of inmates on death row from a particular parish is a little more than an 'occasional' miscarriage of justice.:doh:

I guess it's ok if it's not in one's own back yard or their loved one that's wrongly accused and their life is ruined.

JMHO
fran
 
  • #142
Sorry, OBE, but there is NO comparison between the PA boy and this child. The PA boy is 11, this child was 8, almost nine. NOT apples and apples, but apples and oranges. There's a reason why, when comparing studies on childhood development, they class 6-8, 9-10, etc..........

FWIW, the Crow boy was ALMOST TWICE the age of this child when LE talked him into falsely confessing. Again, apples and oranges.

I haven't seen any accusations of withholding evidence, YET...........ehhhh....the files sealed.

I expect to see more about this case in the future. I'm sure the people who know this child is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt won't mind. Heck, they don't even need to watch, as they're so sure there's no exculpatory evidence not as yet revealed.

JMHO
fran

Why would anyone mind? :confused: I must say, I find some of the things you say quite odd at times.:confused:

IMO, I think the age of reasoning is around 7. I do not agree that he isn't similar to the PA boy. I believe he very much is, but this boy may even be smarter. His story is very much in line with the PA case and what that boy did and also said, when trying to also send the SJPD on wild goose chase looking for a car that didn't exist, just like the PA boy sent LE on a wild goose chase looking for a black truck that never existed.

It is foolish to compartmentalize all children as the same strictly according to their age. Some kids do amazing things at a very young age.

That would be like saying all adults of a certain age are exactly identical.

We aren't clones and we aren't robots or made in a production assembly factory made the exact same way. Human beings are very individualistic and that includes children.

imoo
 
  • #143
Why would anyone mind? :confused: I must say, I find some of the things you say quite odd at times.:confused:

IMO, I think the age of reasoning is around 7. I do not agree that he isn't similar to the PA boy. I believe he very much is, but this boy may even be smarter. His story is very much in line with the PA case and what that boy did and also said, when trying to also send the SJPD on wild goose chase looking for a car that didn't exist, just like the PA boy sent LE on a wild goose chase looking for a black truck that never existed.

It is foolish to compartmentalize all children as the same strictly according to their age. Some kids do amazing things at a very young age.

That would be like saying all adults of a certain age are exactly identical.

We aren't clones and we aren't robots or made in a production assembly factory made the exact same way. Human beings are very individualistic and that includes children. imoo

Bolding is mine.....on what do you base your opinion that the "age of reasoning" is around 7. Do you have anything to back that up? I believe it would depend largely on the child. And we have no idea what CR's intelligence level is, that I can recall.

And either these boys are similar, or they aren't. Which is it...IYO?
 
  • #144
Bolding is mine.....on what do you base your opinion that the "age of reasoning" is around 7. Do you have anything to back that up? I believe it would depend largely on the child. And we have no idea what CR's intelligence level is, that I can recall.

And either these boys are similar, or they aren't. Which is it...IYO?

I have read for many years that the age of 7, give or take a year either way, is the age of reasoning. I certainly know my own 5 children knew right from wrong at that age.

Here is one article. There are many other articles out there though.

http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=7241


The Age of Reason
Around the time of her 7th birthday, your child's conscience emerges to help guide her actions.

Yes, your baby shows early signs of empathy when she cries because another baby is crying, or when, as a toddler, she brings her wailing playmate to you for consolation. But those situations do not require a sacrifice of self-interest or a belief in doing "the right thing." It is not until the age of 7, give or take a year or so, that your child's conscience begins to mature enough to guide her actions. In fact, there is typically a marked surge in moral and mental maturity at that special moment in development (child psychiatrists Theodore Shapiro and Richard Perry first described this in 1976 in an article titled "Latency Revisited: The Age of Seven, Plus or Minus One"). It's been called the "Age of Reason," since these children have a newly internalized sense of right and wrong. They are no longer focused simply on not getting caught or displeasing adults. They have made up their minds about what is right or wrong, identifying with their primary caregivers' expressed values and applying them quite rigidly.

***********************************

I think both of these boys are similar and are well within the age of reasoning.

imoo
 
  • #145
Rather than using JMHO, I'm proving a point.

There's LOTS of reasons a guilty verdict can be appealed. These are examples.

It's a wide spread problem. Various ages, as well.

JMHO
fran


Maybe the courts should just turn every one loose just in case they are innocent even if the DNA and other evidence points to those persons. I think that those that aren't guilty but are found guilty are few and far between considering the 1,000's of people who are arrested on a daily basis and end up pleading guilty or are found guilty by a jury in the USA.
 
  • #146
I have read for many years that the age of 7, give or take a year either way, is the age of reasoning. I certainly know my own 5 children knew right from wrong at that age.

Here is one article. There are many other articles out there though.

http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=7241


The Age of Reason
Around the time of her 7th birthday, your child's conscience emerges to help guide her actions.

Yes, your baby shows early signs of empathy when she cries because another baby is crying, or when, as a toddler, she brings her wailing playmate to you for consolation. But those situations do not require a sacrifice of self-interest or a belief in doing "the right thing." It is not until the age of 7, give or take a year or so, that your child's conscience begins to mature enough to guide her actions. In fact, there is typically a marked surge in moral and mental maturity at that special moment in development (child psychiatrists Theodore Shapiro and Richard Perry first described this in 1976 in an article titled "Latency Revisited: The Age of Seven, Plus or Minus One"). It's been called the "Age of Reason," since these children have a newly internalized sense of right and wrong. They are no longer focused simply on not getting caught or displeasing adults. They have made up their minds about what is right or wrong, identifying with their primary caregivers' expressed values and applying them quite rigidly.

***********************************

I think both of these boys are similar and are well within the age of reasoning.

imoo

Thank you for the article, OBE. I find it quite general in nature myself. Though the reference to "primary caregivers" is interesting, IMO.

And I do not believe these boys - or their circumstances -are similar if one digs a little deeper. The 8-year-old's stepmother had been a part of his life for quite some time and was not pregnant. His bio mom was present in his life as well. The 11-year-old's father was living with his pregnant girlfriend and her children after less than a year together, while his bio mom - and her family - appear to have abandoned him completely. I agree with you in that children are not stupid - at either of these ages. However, I do not believe an 8-year-old child is capable of committing the crime of which he is about to be sentenced.

And BTW, we are not discussing ANYONE'S children other than Vincent Romero's here. If we're going to argue that knowing the basic difference between right and wrong is the absolute barometer for not breaking the law, we must include EVERYONE who has ever broken a law of any kind - children and adults alike.
 
  • #147
Thank you for the article, OBE. I find it quite general in nature myself. Though the reference to "primary caregivers" is interesting, IMO.

And I do not believe these boys - or their circumstances -are similar if one digs a little deeper. The 8-year-old's stepmother had been a part of his life for quite some time and was not pregnant. His bio mom was present in his life as well. The 11-year-old's father was living with his pregnant girlfriend and her children after less than a year together, while his bio mom - and her family - appear to have abandoned him completely. I agree with you in that children are not stupid - at either of these ages. However, I do not believe an 8-year-old child is capable of committing the crime of which he is about to be sentenced.

And BTW, we are not discussing ANYONE'S children other than Vincent Romero's here. If we're going to argue that knowing the basic difference between right and wrong is the absolute barometer for not breaking the law, we must include EVERYONE who has ever broken a law of any kind - children and adults alike.

I respect that you see it differently but I do see similarities in both cases.

Both were raised by their fathers all of their lives.

Both mothers absent or popping in and out of the child's life inconsistently.

Both had life changing events shortly before the murders.

Romero married two months prior after being single for a long time.
Knowing someone is not the same as becoming a family unit imo. I believe once Vinnie and Tiff married they set guidelines and expectations the boy was to follow. No longer was it just Vinnie in the home raising the child.

Mr. Brown, recently got engaged approximately 2 months prior and planned to marry after a long time of being single.

That is the criminal judicial barometer. "Did the defendant know the wrongfulness of their acts?" I believe at an age of almost 9 and 11, both children did know.

I also believe that the AZ lawmakers feel that at least by age 8, is the age of reasoning, since a child of 8 and older can be charged and convicted of a crime in that state.

imoo
 
  • #148
I respect that you see it differently but I do see similarities in both cases.

Both were raised by their fathers all of their lives.

Both mothers absent or popping in and out of the child's life inconsistently.

Both had life changing events shortly before the murders.

The Romero boy's father married two months prior after being single for a long time.
Knowing someone is not the same as becoming a family unit imo. I believe once Vinnie and Tiff married they set guidelines and expectations the boy was to follow. No longer was it just Vinnie in the home raising the child.

The Brown boy's father recently got engaged approximately 2 months prior and planned to marry after a long time of being single.

That is the criminal judicial barometer. "Did the defendant know the wrongfulness of their acts?" I believe at an age of almost 9 and 11, both children did know.

I also believe that the AZ lawmakers feel that at least by age 8, is the age of reasoning, since a child of 8 and older can be charged and convicted of a crime in that state.

imoo

In most cases, OBE, I would agree with you completely. But in CR's case, the court didn't wait for the competency evaluations. While we can certainly generalize about people most of the time, with children I believe it is quite different. I wonder how many times we have seen adult offenders let off the hook because they had the intelligence level of an 8-year-old child. That's all I'm saying.

We've seen no evidence confirming this child had above-average intelligence. The crime itself would have taken great forethought, but the confession they coaxed out of him, along with embellishments, would have taken much more planning and thought than we can expect from a child who was pissed from just the night before at being given a few swats. And why was he in trouble? For forgetting his homework. I cannot believe that a young child who can't remember his homework could plan and execute the ambush and premeditated murders of 2 grown men. Just can't see it.

The PA kid? Now that's a different story.......
 
  • #149
In most cases, OBE, I would agree with you completely. But in CR's case, the court didn't wait for the competency evaluations. While we can certainly generalize about people most of the time, with children I believe it is quite different. I wonder how many times we have seen adult offenders let off the hook because they had the intelligence level of an 8-year-old child. That's all I'm saying.

We've seen no evidence confirming this child had above-average intelligence. The crime itself would have taken great forethought, but the confession they coaxed out of him, along with embellishments, would have taken much more planning and thought than we can expect from a child who was pissed from just the night before at being given a few swats. And why was he in trouble? For forgetting his homework. I cannot believe that a young child who can't remember his homework could plan and execute the ambush and premeditated murders of 2 grown men. Just can't see it.

The PA kid? Now that's a different story.......

That is true, Fairy, but the competency hearing was not about him knowing the wrongfulness of his acts. I don't believe any expert would have gone out on a limb and stated so, imo. The competency issue was he age competent to understand the legalese of a court proceeding in a trial? That is a far different standard than being found mentally incompetent and not knowing the wrongfulness of his acts.

I really don't think a lot of thought had to take place. He knew when his dad came home everyday. He knew what was the first thing his dad did when arriving home. A surprise attack doesn't take deep planning. The unsuspecting person is just there like a sitting duck when it erupts without warning.

I really don't think that he planned ahead of time to murder Tim Romans. Although I do think it is premeditated, which is not any particular time span, but enough time to form the intent.

I have always felt when the boy opened the entry door back up to leave he saw Tim sitting there. He said the back door was kept locked so he couldn't retreat out the back so the only way he could leave was through the door where Tim's truck sat. If he had come out of that door to leave he knew Tim would see him coming out and leaving. He knew he could not explain why he would be leaving with his father's dead body inside and simply bypassing an adult who was close by. Tim, was killed because the boy knew he could not get out and into the yard without being seen by Tim and he also thought Tim would go inside that home when he hung up the phone.

I think he stayed in trouble for lying so much. I think he resented that he had to turnover anything to his parents. I also think that the 'homework" had been an ongoing problem Tiff and Vinnie had been dealing with. I don't think he forgot it.......I think it was a tug of war and more about him wanting to control the situation. Before then he had already made threats of killing his father and I think everything expected of him by his father, threw him into a rage.

imoo
 
  • #150
Maybe the courts should just turn every one loose just in case they are innocent even if the DNA and other evidence points to those persons. I think that those that aren't guilty but are found guilty are few and far between considering the 1,000's of people who are arrested on a daily basis and end up pleading guilty or are found guilty by a jury in the USA.

Obviously by your response, you didn't read the links I posted, sighting case after case, of convicted who were EXONERATED by DNA and, or, exculpatory evidence being uncovered. Much of this exonerating evidence had been available to and surpressed to the Court and def, by the pros before and during trial.

It's easy to sit behind a computer screen and criticize the organizations and people working to free those who are wrongly accused and convicted. The same goes for criticizing those who feel they THINK an injustice is being done when there's no way to prove it, as in this case, because the records are sealed. MOST people behind bars are guilty, but I wasn't talking about MOST guilty persons convicted. I was talking about 'innocent' people convicted because of incompetence, laziness, and people who are in a position of authority, using their OPINION the person on trial is guilty, so they do things on the side of criminal to meet their agenda and convict an innocent person.

With this case, I don't know IF this child is guilty or not. To ME, the pros hasn't {proved} this child did it,..... they just managed to talk a 9 yo child into 'admitting' his actions were responsible for a man's death. To insinuate that I or anyone who questions this child's guilty plea, are implying to turn everyone loose because they COULD be innocent, is, well, disingenuous to the discussion at hand. Just as, IMHO, the only way to OPINE this child's guilt is disingenuous.

There's no way to prove either way, on this board, this child is guilty or innocent. We don't KNOW the facts that haven't been submitted or on file behind sealed records. I would HOPE, that IF this mother truly believes her child is innocent, once his sentence is imposed, she works behind the scenes to find the truth and 'prove' there's an error here. Like I said, IF she believes his innocence AND it can be proven.

I read an article yesterday whereby the person writing the paper on a study taken, it's possible, by the number of cases studied and the percentage of those found innocent, there could be upwards of 40,000 people behind bars in the U.S. that, in FACT are innocent. The difficulty is working through the legitimately innocent and those that claim they are.

The part that's most troubling is,.................IF this child and say 40,000 convicted 'innocent' people are behind bars as implied, there's 40,000 people walking the streets that got away with their crime. To me, that's NOT acceptable.

JMHO
fran
 
  • #151
I have read for many years that the age of 7, give or take a year either way, is the age of reasoning. I certainly know my own 5 children knew right from wrong at that age.

Here is one article. There are many other articles out there though.

http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=7241


The Age of Reason
Around the time of her 7th birthday, your child's conscience emerges to help guide her actions.

Yes, your baby shows early signs of empathy when she cries because another baby is crying, or when, as a toddler, she brings her wailing playmate to you for consolation. But those situations do not require a sacrifice of self-interest or a belief in doing "the right thing." It is not until the age of 7, give or take a year or so, that your child's conscience begins to mature enough to guide her actions. In fact, there is typically a marked surge in moral and mental maturity at that special moment in development (child psychiatrists Theodore Shapiro and Richard Perry first described this in 1976 in an article titled "Latency Revisited: The Age of Seven, Plus or Minus One"). It's been called the "Age of Reason," since these children have a newly internalized sense of right and wrong. They are no longer focused simply on not getting caught or displeasing adults. They have made up their minds about what is right or wrong, identifying with their primary caregivers' expressed values and applying them quite rigidly.

***********************************

I think both of these boys are similar and are well within the age of reasoning.

imoo

The Catholic Church also calls 7 the age of reason.
 
  • #152
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  • #155
How insane is that? So everyone just walks around pretending that NOTHING happened? How the heck can that be healthy or productive?
 
  • #156
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  • #159
This sounds like the boy is NOT at home. Somehow, I thought he was.

I thought the same, Trino.

If he is with his mother then he might as well be under house arrest since they are wanting to have a visitors list and notification.

imoo
 
  • #160
What's that supposed to mean?

I truly do not believe this needs an explanation - from me. Do you watch the news or read the newspapers?

I have no interest in turning this into a religious debate. My point is, those who need to justify their questionable acts against children will find a way to do so. Not bashing ALL lawyers, judges, parents, priests, etc. Just saying, it can and has been done. Over and over and over again.
 
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