AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #5

[dgfred]

Really? Makes no difference to you? Seriously? Why the change of tune?

I've said all along the kid needs intensive residential treatment, all along you've argued and said the kid wasn't a danger and would/should stay with his mother.

The kid's clearly and obviously severely disturbed and a danger. Do you think both shrinks would recommend RTC in another state because he isn't a danger? No, the level of this child's need is great and they felt his needs would be best met by a specialized treatment program, one of the best, out of state.

I want the mother and kid to be satisfied with the deal, if they are... I am.

The boy was and still is with his mother, over a year since this happened.
So therefore, he has not and will not be a danger to the community... which has been shown to most observant people.

There you go again with your webpsychiatry 'severely disturbed and a danger'
You should be ashamed to post something like that... really!
:hand: :slap: You HAVE NO IDEA what the shrinks recommended, so you also have NO IDEA what the proper treatment should/will be. Out of state or in state should not make any difference at all in the matter... and why would a different state be relevent to if he was a danger or not? Nothing you have predicted or stated as your opinion has come to be, so the same rhetoric of a danger to society (yada yada) about a boy which has been living with his mom for over a year keeps being repeated over and over. Amazing.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I want the mother and kid to be satisfied with the deal, if they are... I am.

The boy was and still is with his mother, over a year since this happened.
So therefore, he has not and will not be a danger to the community... which has been shown to most observant people.

There you go again with your webpsychiatry 'severely disturbed and a danger'
You should be ashamed to post something like that... really!
:hand: :slap: You HAVE NO IDEA what the shrinks recommended, so you also have NO IDEA what the proper treatment should/will be. Out of state or in state should not make any difference at all in the matter... and why would a different state be relevant to if he was a danger or not? Nothing you have predicted or stated as your opinion has come to be, so the same rhetoric of a danger to society (yada yada) about a boy which has been living with his mom for over a year keeps being repeated over and over. Amazing.

Hi dgfred!

Yes, he has been living with his mother under house arrest from what I have read. I don't think that is an indicator when determining if he is a danger or not. He is in a very structured environment with strict rules in place. It isn't like he has been able to walk the streets of St. John without a care in the world. From what I remember he cant attend any public events and always has to be accompanied by his mother or grandmother even when they take him back and forth to the detention center where he attends school.

But what is strange is both psychiatrists did recommend an out of state treatment facility. I do not think they would both recommend that if they didn't think this boy may have grave serious issues requiring treatment. It just seems to me if he needs typical counseling and therapy for emotional problems they would have recommended a closer mental treatment center in AZ. It also makes me wonder if they were looking for a facility that specializes in a particular field that has better doctors who may have more success and expertise in whatever disorder this boy has. Maybe it is rare for a child his age thus no one in AZ specializes in it.

It seems everyone agrees he does need to be treated and really that is good for him as well as society. It may not help but it sure can't hurt to try imo.

imo

 

[dgfred]

Hey ob,
Yes he is under a sort of house arrest, but he is still with his mother. If he was a danger to her (accused of killing dad) he would have never been able to stay with her in the first place. Of course that is my opinion as you know.

I believe the out of state facilities are being considered because of monetary issues... not because of what would be the very best for the boy. In state or out of state should not have a bearing on where he is treated. I also believe that an out of state facility might be better/easier for the mom to get away from that area... not necessarily because of better treatment. I think they are just trying to get him/her away from there by one way or another. That is where that 'poison' statement was coming into play... by the community about the boy and the boy/mom toward the community.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Hey ob,
Yes he is under a sort of house arrest, but he is still with his mother. If he was a danger to her (accused of killing dad) he would have never been able to stay with her in the first place. Of course that is my opinion as you know.

I believe the out of state facilities are being considered because of monetary issues... not because of what would be the very best for the boy. In state or out of state should not have a bearing on where he is treated. I also believe that an out of state facility might be better/easier for the mom to get away from that area... not necessarily because of better treatment. I think they are just trying to get him/her away from there by one way or another. That is where that 'poison' statement was coming into play... by the community about the boy and the boy/mom toward the community.

You have the monetary issue all backwards........

The psychiatrists opinions are far more about the quality of treatment than location. The shrinks recommendations have nothing to do with getting the boy out of the community. They felt his needs couldn't be adequately met locally.

This boy is very "different" and he requires very specialized care, residential accommodations, and therapy. Such places are not a dime a dozen. There are a few places that would qualify, and even fewer willing to take him...... and apparently the BEST & willing is outside the state of AZ. Typically these types of places are FAR more expensive than the $250. per day for the in-state ones quoted in the article. They typically run $300 to $500 PER DAY.

They seem to not want to pay for the best.

It's my opinion that the judge was more concerned about the $$$$ and how to save some than anything else. I think he made a terrible mistake discussing the case ex parte, I do believe he was looking for the easiest and cheapest...not what would be best.

 

[dgfred]

Please show us where it is said/written that the shrinks recommended that the state of AZ is not able to treat the boy but another state would. And where is the money going to come from?

In fact, show us or tell us what the shrink's opinions are so far, since you know!

 

[Linda7NJ]

Please show us where it is said/written that the shrinks recommended that the state of AZ is not able to treat the boy but another state would. And where is the money going to come from?

In fact, show us or tell us what the shrink's opinions are so far, since you know!

Money is the issue.

"Roca said sentencing the boy to treatment in his hometown of St. Johns would be "pure poison," and he was unsure if he could lawfully require the boy's mother to leave the state for treatment as two psychiatrists had recommended"

http://www.kpho.com/news/21651131/detail.html

 

[dgfred]

Being that he has been removed from the case, what he 'said' is irrelevant now.

I seriously doubt that another state would be any more capable than AZ to treat the boy.
So, if it is decided he is to get treatment in another state, where will the money come from? Is AZ going to pay for treatment in another state?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Being that he has been removed from the case, what he 'said' is irrelevant now.

I seriously doubt that another state would be any more capable than AZ to treat the boy.
So, if it is decided he is to get treatment in another state, where will the money come from? Is AZ going to pay for treatment in another state?

Most all of these intensive places are privately owned. It's not a matter of another state being more capable. It's just that an appropriate, good facility exisits...it just happens to be located outside of AZ.

No matter where he goes, the state of AZ will be paying, not the receiving state.

Oh...and his mom can kiss the boy's SS check good bye...they'll be taking it, since wherever he goes will be housing him and feeding him.

 

[dgfred]

Well you should be quite pleased then since it will more difficult for the mom to survive if that is so.
Which facility in another state is more capable than the ones in AZ? I don't think there is much if any difference. Money was the issue, now it is not. A plea deal was offered and accepted, now it is in question. The judge rules one way, then renigs on what he has ruled before. If you check it out thoroughly, you will see that AZ and the area where this happened is short on money... there is no way around it. 100s of thousands of dollars are typically in short supply nowadays. This may not be the option chosen anyway.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well you should be quite pleased then since it will more difficult for the mom to survive if that is so.
Which facility in another state is more capable than the ones in AZ? I don't think there is much if any difference. Money was the issue, now it is not. A plea deal was offered and accepted, now it is in question. The judge rules one way, then renigs on what he has ruled before. If you check it out thoroughly, you will see that AZ and the area where this happened is short on money... there is no way around it. 100s of thousands of dollars are typically in short supply nowadays. This may not be the option chosen anyway.

This may help you understand.

http://www.tricaredirectories.com/GUTS/DIRres.htm

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well you should be quite pleased then since it will more difficult for the mom to survive if that is so.
Which facility in another state is more capable than the ones in AZ? I don't think there is much if any difference. Money was the issue, now it is not. A plea deal was offered and accepted, now it is in question. The judge rules one way, then renigs on what he has ruled before. If you check it out thoroughly, you will see that AZ and the area where this happened is short on money... there is no way around it. 100s of thousands of dollars are typically in short supply nowadays. This may not be the option chosen anyway.

Survive? How about she get herself a job or two?

There is a HUGE difference not only in quality of care but specialization. Do you think every RTC is ready and prepared to therapeutically treat & rehabilitate 8 year old murderer? Seriously?

Every place has it's own set of criteria a participant must meet. They are all different. Some may refuse firesetters, those low functioning, actively suicidal etc.. some take ages 6 to 12 while others may only take teens. Some places are secure, some are not. Some have 10 beds some have 30. Some have cottages and a home like setting with therapeutic house parents, some do not.

Because they are private, then can say NO and they often do.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I feel like I just stumbled into a kitchen at the wrong time during an uncomfortable discussion. Geez....

 

[sdn8tv]

Money is the issue.

"Roca said sentencing the boy to treatment in his hometown of St. Johns would be "pure poison," and he was unsure if he could lawfully require the boy's mother to leave the state for treatment as two psychiatrists had recommended"

http://www.kpho.com/news/21651131/detail.html

There's a reason Roca has been kicked off the case...

I think the ending will surprise many people here...

He is not a danger to the community...the community is a danger to him. Remember none of those accusations presented by the prosecution were validated...

 

[Linda7NJ]

There's a reason Roca has been kicked off the case...

I think the ending will surprise many people here...

He is not a danger to the community...the community is a danger to him. Remember none of those accusations presented by the prosecution were validated...

How do you explain away two dead men?

 

[sdn8tv]

Hi dgfred!

Yes, he has been living with his mother under house arrest from what I have read. I don't think that is an indicator when determining if he is a danger or not. He is in a very structured environment with strict rules in place. It isn't like he has been able to walk the streets of St. John without a care in the world. From what I remember he cant attend any public events and always has to be accompanied by his mother or grandmother even when they take him back and forth to the detention center where he attends school.

But what is strange is both psychiatrists did recommend an out of state treatment facility. I do not think they would both recommend that if they didn't think this boy may have grave serious issues requiring treatment. It just seems to me if he needs typical counseling and therapy for emotional problems they would have recommended a closer mental treatment center in AZ. It also makes me wonder if they were looking for a facility that specializes in a particular field that has better doctors who may have more success and expertise in whatever disorder this boy has. Maybe it is rare for a child his age thus no one in AZ specializes in it.

It seems everyone agrees he does need to be treated and really that is good for him as well as society. It may not help but it sure can't hurt to try imo.

imo

He is not on house arrest.
Out of state was recommended due to his age not because of grave serious issues.
Show me a 9 year old who walks the streets "freely" in any community. I sure as heck don't let my 8 year old walk freely in the streets and I sure as heck wouldn't allow it is St. John's. It is a drug infested hole with a bunch of run down houses. There are a few nice homes splattered here and there. We are talking about a community where people put stones on their single wide trailers to make it look like a house.
He does play outside, he rides his bike, he goes fishing, he visits his friends house...guess what...he even got to carve a pumpkin and go trick or treating for Halloween
...and yes a family member needs to sign him in and out of the detention center for school...but isn't that typical of any juvenile leaving the facility. They don't just open the door and say "bye bye now". I think that might have something to do with a liability issue.
Contrary to what some people might think...this child is not walking around without a care in this world. He is a very sad child, he has had a very traumatized life in his short 8 years until this happened. He loved his father very much. He goes to his grave and cries and just layes with him. Yes maybe he didn't make the "smartest" decision and he knows this...as much as an 8 year old can understand long term consequences. This was not some idylic disneyland life he lived. Every adult in his young life disappointed him at some point.

 

[southcitymom]

How do you explain away two dead men?

For me, it is not difficult to see that the child was a danger to those two specific men without seeing him as a danger to society at large.

 

[Linda7NJ]

For me, it is not difficult to see that the child was a danger to those two specific men without seeing him as a danger to society at large.

Would you feel the same if he were 12? 15? Where do you draw the line?

What he did was absolutely horrifying and listening to that hour long tape was chilling. I will never forget, for as long as I live, the way he lied and lied....cool as a cucumber...........after planning a double murder... shot both men over and over....lured Tim to his death. Makes me shiver just thinking about it!

 

[Linda7NJ]

He is not on house arrest.
Out of state was recommended due to his age not because of grave serious issues.
Show me a 9 year old who walks the streets "freely" in any community. I sure as heck don't let my 8 year old walk freely in the streets and I sure as heck wouldn't allow it is St. John's. It is a drug infested hole with a bunch of run down houses. There are a few nice homes splattered here and there. We are talking about a community where people put stones on their single wide trailers to make it look like a house.
He does play outside, he rides his bike, he goes fishing, he visits his friends house...guess what...he even got to carve a pumpkin and go trick or treating for Halloween
...and yes a family member needs to sign him in and out of the detention center for school...but isn't that typical of any juvenile leaving the facility. They don't just open the door and say "bye bye now". I think that might have something to do with a liability issue.
Contrary to what some people might think...this child is not walking around without a care in this world. He is a very sad child, he has had a very traumatized life in his short 8 years until this happened. He loved his father very much. He goes to his grave and cries and just layes with him. Yes maybe he didn't make the "smartest" decision and he knows this...as much as an 8 year old can understand long term consequences. This was not some idylic disneyland life he lived. Every adult in his young life disappointed him at some point.

BBM

His own mother, IMO had much to due with that.

I take exception to the statement "until this happened" This didn't just happen, he caused it, he planned it and he carried it out.

 

[southcitymom]

Would you feel the same if he were 12? 15? Where do you draw the line?

What he did was absolutely horrifying and listening to that hour long tape was chilling. I will never forget, for as long as I live, the way he lied and lied....cool as a cucumber...........after planning a double murder... shot both men over and over....lured Tim to his death. Makes me shiver just thinking about it!

It would depend on the circumstances surrounding the 12 year old or the 15 year old killing two adults. Though age is surely a factor for me in my feelings about this case, it's not the biggest factor. As a general rule though, I don't believe that a child his age can fully appreciate

I think you and I have different responses to that tape. I saw an elementary school kid who seemed extremely normal. Was he lying to try to get out of trouble? - absolutely...but again, that doesn't strike me as odd for his age.

I do believe that his Dad and the renter were specific targets. Nothing I have seen or read since those murders leaves me to believe he is a danger to anyone else.

 

[Linda7NJ]

It would depend on the circumstances surrounding the 12 year old or the 15 year old killing two adults. Though age is surely a factor for me in my feelings about this case, it's not the biggest factor. As a general rule though, I don't believe that a child his age can fully appreciate

I think you and I have different responses to that tape. I saw an elementary school kid who seemed extremely normal. Was he lying to try to get out of trouble? - absolutely...but again, that doesn't strike me as odd for his age.

I do believe that his Dad and the renter were specific targets. Nothing I have seen or read since those murders leaves me to believe he is a danger to anyone else.

Too bad we can't see the psy evals