GUILTY AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #6

[mostlylurking]

Geez -- I've avoided posting on this thread for so so so long for so many reasons...
I'm just glad that everything has to be prefaced with "IMO" or "I think" or whatever disclaimers a poster chooses to use....

NONE posting here are experts in psychology/psychiastry -- yes, I realize some have direct experience in working with kids who need some sort of treatment for some sort of reason -- me included at a minimal level.....

For cryin' out loud though, I have not seen in any public statement that this child has the severe conduct disorder, or psychopath diagnosis that is being presumed at this point. I also don't think there is ANYONE left on this board who actually knows this child & could offer insight at this point.

For the sake of this child's possible healing and anonymity (which will be needed if he has a chance at any life), I wish this thread would be closed. It's nothing but a bunch of adults SPECULATING about things NONE of us know & it has gotten old to watch/read.

I would much rather be in a place where efforts are being made to help this CHILD and his family heal through whatever happened that day & whatever lead up to it -- something that we will NEVER really know and I see no more point in SPECULATING about. Nor do I see a reason to SPECULATE about the results of the upcoming treatment... It is not discussion of a crime anymore. It is character assassination of a CHILD -- who is not here to defend himself...........

 

[trofanji]

As there will be no more news about the boy, Yes it would be good for all to close the thread. Everything possible was said, some in favor (like me) and some against the boy. Since there will be no trial in this case I think there will be no more news that could change anybody's mind of this boy. At last I know what I know and I'm happy with it!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Geez -- I've avoided posting on this thread for so so so long for so many reasons...
I'm just glad that everything has to be prefaced with "IMO" or "I think" or whatever disclaimers a poster chooses to use....

NONE posting here are experts in psychology/psychiastry -- yes, I realize some have direct experience in working with kids who need some sort of treatment for some sort of reason -- me included at a minimal level.....

For cryin' out loud though, I have not seen in any public statement that this child has the severe conduct disorder, or psychopath diagnosis that is being presumed at this point. I also don't think there is ANYONE left on this board who actually knows this child & could offer insight at this point.

For the sake of this child's possible healing and anonymity (which will be needed if he has a chance at any life), I wish this thread would be closed. It's nothing but a bunch of adults SPECULATING about things NONE of us know & it has gotten old to watch/read.

I would much rather be in a place where efforts are being made to help this CHILD and his family heal through whatever happened that day & whatever lead up to it -- something that we will NEVER really know and I see no more point in SPECULATING about. Nor do I see a reason to SPECULATE about the results of the upcoming treatment... It is not discussion of a crime anymore. It is character assassination of a CHILD -- who is not here to defend himself...........

I do agree with some of what you say Mostlyluking but I am puzzled why you think a message board has anything to do with the boy on a personal level. Many cases have come to fruition here yet the thread goes on after then. Although if the moderators wish to close the thread I have no problem with that at all.

I don't see how it is character assassination either. What character assassination? How does one assassinate the character of a double murderer? No defendant has ever posted here that I am aware of so none of them can defend themselves. That doesn't stop opinions about them from being discussed though so why should this case be different?

Even the attorneys in this case have speculated about the success of this boy's treatment but now we aren't supposed to be allowed to give our opinions and speculate either? Why?

imo

 

[mostlylurking]

I do agree with some of what you say Mostlyluking but I am puzzled why you think a message board has anything to do with the boy on a personal level. Many cases have come to fruition here yet the thread goes on after then. Although if the moderators wish to close the thread I have no problem with that at all.

I don't see how it is character assassination either. What character assassination? How does one assassinate the character of a double murderer? No defendant has ever posted here that I am aware of so none of them can defend themselves. That doesn't stop opinions about them from being discussed though so why should this case be different?

Even the attorneys in this case have speculated about the success of this boy's treatment but now we aren't supposed to be allowed to give our opinions and speculate either? Why?

imo

I am involved on a personal level, therefore this message board becomes personal to me. I have admitted to that before. It continues to be the same old drabble from both sides with nothing to gain by continuing to beat a dead horse. NO ONE is going to change their mind on this board or be willing to have a real honest discussion of the "facts" as we have had them presented to us at a public level.

As for character assasination.... you and others continue to refer to this child as a double murderer. That is what he was charged with. That is not what he plead to -- negligent homicide on one person. He is being treated for something that we do not have a public diagnosis for, yet he continues to be referred to as a psychopath with severe conduct disorder. If this were an adult's case, I may want to jump on the bandwagon & use every demeanable phrase I could think of to describe the person if I though he/she were guilty (give me a pedophile for example & I'm there) --- BUT, THIS IS A CHILD - whose circumstances of life in his home leading up to that day WE DO NOT KNOW, people can only speculate & at this point, all the speculation is pointless.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I am involved on a personal level, therefore this message board becomes personal to me. I have admitted to that before. It continues to be the same old drabble from both sides with nothing to gain by continuing to beat a dead horse. NO ONE is going to change their mind on this board or be willing to have a real honest discussion of the "facts" as we have had them presented to us at a public level.

As for character assasination.... you and others continue to refer to this child as a double murderer. That is what he was charged with. That is not what he plead to -- negligent homicide on one person. He is being treated for something that we do not have a public diagnosis for, yet he continues to be referred to as a psychopath with severe conduct disorder. If this were an adult's case, I may want to jump on the bandwagon & use every demeanable phrase I could think of to describe the person if I though he/she were guilty (give me a pedophile for example & I'm there) --- BUT, THIS IS A CHILD - whose circumstances of life in his home leading up to that day WE DO NOT KNOW, people can only speculate & at this point, all the speculation is pointless.

There are many children who are becoming youthful violent offenders MostlyLurking. The threads go up about them and it seems to come at a rather rapid pace more than ever before. Just because the defendants are youths shouldn't prevent anyone from being able to discuss the cases, imo.

And no matter the legalese concerning the plea deal admitting to just one killing even his own attorney apologized for the boy saying the boy was sorry he killed his dad and Tim. I think everyone knows he murdered both of these men. So hanging on a technicality is a moot point imo and doesn't dismiss the two murders that were done by him.

Even his own family doesn't deny he murdered his father too and Eryn made no excuses for her son or his actions.

I just don't see why the guidelines are supposed to change just because the defendant happened to be a violent youthful offender.

imo

 

[trofanji]

It's because he is a juvenile offender, and juvenile isn't the right word I think, he is still a child with a childish mind and childish actions. So the different is a adult offender is harder to rehabilitate than a juvenile offender. He has a chance, and I can say he has a good chance, to get his live in a positive line. So what did we discuss here? we can go on you say something what is your opinion and I say something what is my opinion. and we discuss it again and again all the time the same things. there will be no more evidence released. so this case is closed. He is sentenced and he will soon get the therapies he need.

 

[mostlylurking]

There are many children who are becoming youthful violent offenders MostlyLurking. The threads go up about them and it seems to come at a rather rapid pace more than ever before. Just because the defendants are youths shouldn't prevent anyone from being able to discuss the cases, imo.

And no matter the legalese concerning the plea deal admitting to just one killing even his own attorney apologized for the boy saying the boy was sorry he killed his dad and Tim. I think everyone knows he murdered both of these men. So hanging on a technicality is a moot point imo and doesn't dismiss the two murders that were done by him.

Even his own family doesn't deny he murdered his father too and Eryn made no excuses for her son or his actions.

I just don't see why the guidelines are supposed to change just because the defendant happened to be a violent youthful offender.

imo

BBM --
And that is the difference between your approach and mine -- and the reason that discussion of this case is not possible between the sides -- IMO.

Children are children. All circumstances surrounding them should be different & IMO handled w/kid gloves. This CHILD'S rights were violated from day one. He was hung out to dry, IMO. The "technicality" of the legalese is exactly what our justice system created for him to live with.... He was not mirandized, had no adult w/him for any aspect of protection during the inquisition, was not determined to be competent before the plea was taken.... blah, blah, blah, it's all been said before.

Further discussion is a moot point in my book & I have asked for this thread to be closed. Whether it is or isn't, I believe that this will be my last post on the topic.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It's because he is a juvenile offender, and juvenile isn't the right word I think, he is still a child with a childish mind and childish actions. So the different is a adult offender is harder to rehabilitate than a juvenile offender. He has a chance, and I can say he has a good chance, to get his live in a positive line. So what did we discuss here? we can go on you say something what is your opinion and I say something what is my opinion. and we discuss it again and again all the time the same things. there will be no more evidence released. so this case is closed. He is sentenced and he will soon get the therapies he need.

Yes, that is the way a message board works. It is about individual opinions and being able to express them. There is no rule that I am aware of that just because the case is closed no more comments or opinions can be made. Heck people discussed the OJ murder case for over a decade and other cases are still being discussed that are years old.

Right now in the current crime news there is another case being discussed here and elsewhere across the internet that involves children who are violent offenders. (Thread title: 10, 11 Year old boys torture younger boys) and this case certainly isn't the only case where a younger violent offender has murdered a parent or someone close to them and it will not be the last. Just last year a boy of 11 murdered his father's pregnant finance by shooting her in the head with a shotgun.

So with the defendant being young shouldn't prevent discussions on the case if anyone wishes to do so, imo.

For me personally, I am just very glad to see that this boy is in a secured treatment facility and will not be able to leave until the psychiatrists deem him cured or atleast will determine he is no longer a danger to society. That is why the probation stipulations says that he cannot be in any public schools or public venues until he is deemed not to be a danger. How long this will take or even if he can be treated successfully is really anyone's guess.

 

[Linda7NJ]

so how did you know that he is diagnosed with conduct disorder?
IMO

Because no other diagnosis has such a poor prognosis.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Geez -- I've avoided posting on this thread for so so so long for so many reasons...
I'm just glad that everything has to be prefaced with "IMO" or "I think" or whatever disclaimers a poster chooses to use....

NONE posting here are experts in psychology/psychiastry -- yes, I realize some have direct experience in working with kids who need some sort of treatment for some sort of reason -- me included at a minimal level.....

For cryin' out loud though, I have not seen in any public statement that this child has the severe conduct disorder, or psychopath diagnosis that is being presumed at this point. I also don't think there is ANYONE left on this board who actually knows this child & could offer insight at this point.

For the sake of this child's possible healing and anonymity (which will be needed if he has a chance at any life), I wish this thread would be closed. It's nothing but a bunch of adults SPECULATING about things NONE of us know & it has gotten old to watch/read.

I would much rather be in a place where efforts are being made to help this CHILD and his family heal through whatever happened that day & whatever lead up to it -- something that we will NEVER really know and I see no more point in SPECULATING about. Nor do I see a reason to SPECULATE about the results of the upcoming treatment... It is not discussion of a crime anymore. It is character assassination of a CHILD -- who is not here to defend himself...........

BBM
To your knowledge. I could send my credentials to Trisha for verification, but I chose not to. I purposely do not offer MY OPINIONS as expert opinions because ...

#1 It's a message board!
#2 I am not privy to ALL of the evaluations and reports.

The purpose of this forum is to discuss crimes. Period. It's not support group for criminals.:twocents:

 

[trofanji]

Because no other diagnosis has such a poor prognosis.

Well I think that's your personal diagnosis based only on a Video, I don't think that you know what has happened before!. - And if the diagnosis is another? I think that what was talked in the court was for the media, fact is that the boy was out with his mom for nearly a year without trouble, he tried to fit into a disliking community without trouble, he lived in a house without trouble, he played with other kids, without trouble…, he went to the detention center each day to get a credit less schooling, …without trouble. I personal think this boy had a very good prognosis. No, I don't think he is a danger to someone.
IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well I think that's your personal diagnosis based only on a Video, I don't think that you know what has happened before!. - And if the diagnosis is another? I think that what was talked in the court was for the media, fact is that the boy was out with his mom for nearly a year without trouble, he tried to fit into a disliking community without trouble, he lived in a house without trouble, he played with other kids, without trouble…, he went to the detention center each day to get a credit less schooling, …without trouble. I personal think this boy had a very good prognosis. No, I don't think he is a danger to someone.

The boy was with his mother for almost a year with strict precautions in place for one reason only. There was no place else to place him at the time.

You think what was discussed in court was a conspiracy for media consumption? :waitasec:


Sadly, his psychiatrists disagree with you about his prognosis.

 

[SailorMoon]

So what did happen? It seems that I missed an outcome, what was it? I have an 8yo son, I can't imagine him killing any living thing. Not an animal, not anything. We are not hunters and the sight and thought and how people are okay with killing an animal is beyond me. How do people enjoy taking an innocent creatures life?? From what I understand the boy had been hunting before and therefore the reasoning of - I didn't want him to suffer. I just don't get it and never will. There will always be a question in my mind of if he did it and why. So excuse my rambling, what was the outcome??? I hope everyone heals in this case.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Here ya go

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2010/01/15/20100115stjohns0115.html

 

[trofanji]

The boy was with his mother for almost a year with strict precautions in place for one reason only. There was no place else to place him at the time.

You think what was discussed in court was a conspiracy for media consumption? :waitasec:


Sadly, his psychiatrists disagree with you about his prognosis.

I don't think all psychiatrists disagree with me!
-sorry, but it sound's you have access to the evaluation's but that can't be because they are sealed and stay sealed. So it's of course in my opinion a online diagnosis.
-And if he is dangerous it was irresponsible to release him to his mom, if he is dangerous they should have placed him since last year in a facility where he can get the help he need. I think one of those facility's where he finally is placed would had a place for him if they requested it early last year.
IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't think all psychiatrists disagree with me!
-sorry, but it sound's you have access to the evaluation's but that can't be because they are sealed and stay sealed. So it's of course in my opinion a online diagnosis.
-And if he is dangerous it was irresponsible to release him to his mom, if he is dangerous they should have placed him since last year in a facility where he can get the help he need. I think one of those facility's where he finally is placed would had a place for him if they requested it early last year.
IMO

Well apparently, I came to the same conclusion as the psychiatrists evaluating him did.

I know you are having great difficultly understanding this. The boy could not be placed until the evaluations were completed and the boy sentenced. That's the way it works. I don't like it either. It didn't do the boy any good therapeutically to be out with his mother for a year. But that's the way it works.

Dangerous adults are out on bail walking around awaiting trial. That's the way it works. Do I like it? Heck no!

 

[trofanji]

Well apparently, I came to the same conclusion as the psychiatrists evaluating him did.

I know you are having great difficultly understanding this. The boy could not be placed until the evaluations were completed and the boy sentenced. That's the way it works. I don't like it either. It didn't do the boy any good therapeutically to be out with his mother for a year. But that's the way it works.

Dangerous adults are out on bail walking around awaiting trial. That's the way it works. Do I like it? Heck no!

You said all psychiatrist's say that he has a bad prognosis, so I just like to know where it's written that all psychiatrist's said it?

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

So what did happen? It seems that I missed an outcome, what was it? I have an 8yo son, I can't imagine him killing any living thing. Not an animal, not anything. We are not hunters and the sight and thought and how people are okay with killing an animal is beyond me. How do people enjoy taking an innocent creatures life?? From what I understand the boy had been hunting before and therefore the reasoning of - I didn't want him to suffer. I just don't get it and never will. There will always be a question in my mind of if he did it and why. So excuse my rambling, what was the outcome??? I hope everyone heals in this case.

I can understand your concept if you have never hunted or had someone in your family hunt small and large game. However millions of people hunt yearly all across this country. Most people who hunt game eat what they kill. Those who trophy hunt give the meat of the game away to be eaten. Venison (deer) is a recommended healthy food to eat by the American Heart Association because it has very little fat content... unlike cows, pigs or chicken. Hunted game is also killed much more humanely than animals that are run through a slaughter house to be processed for markets and grocery stores. It is also not filled with the toxic additives.

St John is a rural area where many families hunt for their food. I would think with the economy in such dire straights and so many out of work that the amount of families hunting has risen. Hunters have always hunted for food such as deer, rabbit and certain type of birds, etc. since the beginning of America's existence.

Each state has what they call "pests" who do destructive damage in a particular area and the DNR allows for those pests to be shot. By shooting them it prevents millions of dollars in damage caused by these pests.

Being from a hunting family did not cause this. If that were true then millions of young children who hunt would do the same acts this kid did and they don't. His own father had owned this same gun since he was this boy's age and had hunted with his dad all through his life growing up. Not once did Vincent Romero use his gun for anything other than its intended purpose.

As far as what has been learned.

His attorney apologized for the boy in court and said that the boy was sorry for killing his dad and Tim.

He is being sent to an in house mental treatment facility in Maricopa County where he doesn't have the ability to leave on his own accord. He can be there until the age of 18. If he is released earlier then he will be under intensive probation until the age of 18. He will be reassessed at the ages of 12 1/2, 15 1/2 and 17 1/2 and those reports will be given to the Court each time.

imo

 

[Linda7NJ]

I am involved on a personal level, therefore this message board becomes personal to me. I have admitted to that before. It continues to be the same old drabble from both sides with nothing to gain by continuing to beat a dead horse. NO ONE is going to change their mind on this board or be willing to have a real honest discussion of the "facts" as we have had them presented to us at a public level.

As for character assasination.... you and others continue to refer to this child as a double murderer. That is what he was charged with. That is not what he plead to -- negligent homicide on one person. He is being treated for something that we do not have a public diagnosis for, yet he continues to be referred to as a psychopath with severe conduct disorder. If this were an adult's case, I may want to jump on the bandwagon & use every demeanable phrase I could think of to describe the person if I though he/she were guilty (give me a pedophile for example & I'm there) --- BUT, THIS IS A CHILD - whose circumstances of life in his home leading up to that day WE DO NOT KNOW, people can only speculate & at this point, all the speculation is pointless.

BBM

Two men were brutally and coldly executed...in other words MURDERED. It doesn't matter a bit to me what he was charged with or plead to. He did it, and everyone knows it.

Here's an example...OJ was never convicted of murdering Nicole & Ron. No one was ever convicted for those murders. Does that mean Ron & Nicole weren't MURDERED?

It's no secret, I tend to be a victim's advocate and most of my opinions reflect that here on Websleuths.

I don't need a public diagnosis to form an opinion. I based that opinion on the video, the horrific nature of the boys crimes, witness statements, his lawyers own statements as well as the original recommendations for out of state placement in a locked residential treatment facility and my own experience as well as education. When his own lawyer says to ask him in three years, that's incredibly telling. I believe, without a doubt that this child was diagnosed with severe conduct disorder.

 

[Linda7NJ]

BBM --
And that is the difference between your approach and mine -- and the reason that discussion of this case is not possible between the sides -- IMO.

Children are children. All circumstances surrounding them should be different & IMO handled w/kid gloves. This CHILD'S rights were violated from day one. He was hung out to dry, IMO. The "technicality" of the legalese is exactly what our justice system created for him to live with.... He was not mirandized, had no adult w/him for any aspect of protection during the inquisition, was not determined to be competent before the plea was taken.... blah, blah, blah, it's all been said before.

Further discussion is a moot point in my book & I have asked for this thread to be closed. Whether it is or isn't, I believe that this will be my last post on the topic.

The children, "10,11 Year old boys torture younger boys" being discussed here 10,11 Year old boys torture younger boys - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community were actually horribly abused. I'm extremely curious were all of the supporters of this boy are in their support of them?


BBM

Would you have preferred the child walk away without any consequence at all? Based on a "technicality" that YOU determined?