Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #2

[Kamille]

Further to the trio of phones travelling west (on Lakeshore?), it was reported that all 3 phones set out from celltower near DM's home on Maple Gate and travelled west (on Lakeshore?); then LB's phone disappeared around 'Indian Grove' (celltower) in Mississauga; then MS's phone stopped when it reached a celltower around his mom's home in Oakville; and that DM's phone continued to the tower around his farm. It makes sense in that order, here's a googlemap showing from DM's home onward:

Map here (not sure if DM followed the backroads or took the highway after dropping MS off, but presuming he had a dead body in his vehicle at the time?)


http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/babcock-s...wer-near-millard-s-home-court-hears-1.3660823

This report suggest the trio set off together from DM's house (ws supposed to be just after midnight on July 4, 2012), travelled west, dropped off MS, continued to near DM's farm in Ayr, and then later around 11am on July 4th, LB's phone went off grid around Indian Grove in Mississauga.
Hmmmm, so ... which is it??


http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/babcocks-last-call-connected-with-tower-near-millard-home-trial-hears

Thanks for finding those conflicting reports deugirtni. It's very discouraging that reporters sitting in the courtroom are hearing and interpreting things differently from one another. Makes me wonder how the jury is interpreting things and if the evidence really is so confusing that the judge has to also continually ask for some clarification.

MOO

 

[flowergrl]

Still looking, but I believe you are correct, she was hysterical. I do remember mention of her grabbing something that prompted LE to remove her from the immediate area. Most likely part of the hysterical reaction to the search.

i think it was one of the canlii docs...

 

[Kamille]

I think Smich was a mama's boy. He was looking after his mom around the time he was arrested and was taking her to a doctor's appointment IIRC. He was clearly a hoodlum. A mother's love is strong. JMO

He was the only boy in a house full of women. Wasn't there also some issue of his sister warning him that LE were asking questions while he was staying at MM's sister's place? Prompting him to move the gun out of his mother's garage?

As the only boy he was likely coddled very much. Allowed to do as he pleased with whomever he pleased. In her home and apparently in her garage and back garden shed. And while I don't doubt he might have driven his mother to appointments while she was dealing with cancer treatments, she was also likely fully aware he did not have a driver's license. A mother's love for her only son is probably the strongest of all.

MOO

 

[matou]

Thanks for finding those conflicting reports deugirtni. It's very discouraging that reporters sitting in the courtroom are hearing and interpreting things differently from one another. Makes me wonder how the jury is interpreting things and if the evidence really is so confusing that the judge has to also continually ask for some clarification.

MOO

I wish the powerpoints would come out so we can see the cell phone ping trail ourselves.

 

[Kamille]

I wish the powerpoints would come out so we can see the cell phone ping trail ourselves.

I wish Adam Carter was covering this.

 

[tinkr]

I wish Adam Carter was covering this.

Me too!


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[Errrr]

Further to the trio of phones travelling west (on Lakeshore?), it was reported that all 3 phones set out from celltower near DM's home on Maple Gate and travelled west (on Lakeshore?); then LB's phone disappeared around 'Indian Grove' (celltower) in Mississauga; then MS's phone stopped when it reached a celltower around his mom's home in Oakville; and that DM's phone continued to the tower around his farm. It makes sense in that order, here's a googlemap showing from DM's home onward:

Map here (not sure if DM followed the backroads or took the highway after dropping MS off, but presuming he had a dead body in his vehicle at the time?)


http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/babcock-s...wer-near-millard-s-home-court-hears-1.3660823

This report suggest the trio set off together from DM's house (ws supposed to be just after midnight on July 4, 2012), travelled west, dropped off MS, continued to near DM's farm in Ayr, and then later around 11am on July 4th, LB's phone went off grid around Indian Grove in Mississauga.
Hmmmm, so ... which is it??


http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/babcocks-last-call-connected-with-tower-near-millard-home-trial-hears

The report could suggest there was a second vehicle containing MS. Either he was driving illegally, or another person was driving him. The pings aren't accurate enough to say cells are in the same car, just moving together at some point......until they diverge.

 

[Tilly23]

Thanks for finding those conflicting reports deugirtni. It's very discouraging that reporters sitting in the courtroom are hearing and interpreting things differently from one another. Makes me wonder how the jury is interpreting things and if the evidence really is so confusing that the judge has to also continually ask for some clarification.

MOO

Yes, I am all confused now. I think it was clear that all 3 phones were together near Maplegate. And that they all left together. Then I get lost.

Did they all go to Ayr to the farm and then go back to Toronto? Then the 3 phones leave together again, LB's phone disappearing near Indian Grove in Mississauga, MS's when he got dropped at home in Oakville, DM's continuing on back to the farm?

This is not how I understood it from the tweets. There I didn't hear anything about going to the farm and coming back to Toronto before the part where we see LB's phone drop out and MS's get left in Oakville.

IMOO, it does make sense that they went to the farm first though. I am speculating that they took LB's body up to the farm, then came back to Maplegate to do a little clean up. This is likely when they renamed the ipad. Then DM and MS headed to Oakville to drop MS off. On the way there, LB's phone (that was in the car with them) either ran out of battery, was pitched into the lake or was turned off.

I hope the visual map presentation by the expert is clear for the jury here.

MOO

 

[canadiangirl]

IIRC from the TB trial, Mark's mom had to be restrained and removed from either the room or the house during the first search. I can't find the description of the encounter, but remember her picking something up and threatening a LE officer.

Yes that is because of the way LE treated her while searching the home. IIRC a complaint was filed against LE about how they treated her but the judge dismissed it.


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[canadiangirl]

I think Smich was a mama's boy. He was looking after his mom around the time he was arrested and was taking her to a doctor's appointment IIRC. He was clearly a hoodlum. A mother's love is strong. JMO

MS mother is also European background... Lol have you ever got between an older European woman and her children?? Oh boy lol

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[canadiangirl]

i think it was one of the canlii docs...

You are correct it was.

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[canadiangirl]

Instead of being cooperative with the police in a very serious matter she was combative? unbelievable and I think it says a lot about what type of example she was to MS. She sounds like she is a bit off her rocker, that is not a normal reaction to becoming physically aggressive, it helps to understand more about what influences MS had that contributed to his very anti-social behavior even when he was very young he was involved with the police. His father seems to have completely abandoned him and I don't think was ever at the first trial. No other family that was also followed by the photographers were that in a rage to do what she did. The family of the victim was followed by the photographers and they are under the most distress and never reacted like she did. I am sure her neighbors in Oakville are not happy she is living there, I know the neighborhood, it is a tight-knit one with a lot of young children. they probably would be happy if she moved at least that is my opinion, I could be wrong.

That not how it went at all. You need to read the report to see what happened. Canilli

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[Errrr]

"The mapped phone records suggest he may have picked her up from the Kipling subway not far from his house: The phones of both Babcock and Millard hit a cellphone tower near the Kipling station at about 6:30 p.m. A half hour later, their phones were both pinging off the tower near Millard’s Maple Gate home. That same eerie tandem is evident the next day as well.
According to the mapped records, the phones belonging to Smich, Millard and Babcock all began moving west on July 4. Court heard Smich’s phone eventually headed to his Oakville home while those belonging to Millard and Babcock continued to move together in a route along the QEW. Millard’s phone eventually bounced off cellphone towers near his Waterloo-area farm and his aviation company nearby before heading back to Toronto.

The Crown alleges Babcock’s body was being transported west to Millard’s farm in Ayr township where he would later take delivery of the Eliminator, a $15,000 industrial incinerator.

Babcock would never make another outgoing call or text, but her phone was still receiving them from people anxious to find out where she’d gone. And then it died.

The jury heard that shortly after 11 a.m., somewhere around Indian Grove, Mississauga, Babcock’s beloved Blackberry suddenly stopped connecting with cellphone towers along the route. The last connection to the bubbly young woman was gone."
DM and MS could have loaded up the mattress and victim when people showed up. If somebody drove MS home while DM took a back route to find a dumpster? There is a Tim Hortons at the ,end of Indian Grove. He might have tipped the mattress there, disposed of the cell or disabled it and continued on to the farm. MS wasn't needed for that. Speculation.

 

[dar107]

I do not recall any of this about MS mom but enough seem to remember something. I do recall LW being hostile. Either way I can imagine how horrifying it must be to find your child accused of such atrocities. Dont recall any evidence or stories of how horrible a mother or person she was or how the neighbour's want her gone. Or any reports of her tampering with evidence like DM mom. Who knows what kind of mom she was..maybe a great fiercely protective mom trying her best to raise her children on her own? Who ended up through no fault of her own with a son like MS. It happens. I hate when people start blaming or trash talking the mom of the accused with no basis. Mothers are blind sometimes when it comes to their kids its just how it is. Is she perfect probly not. Is she highly emotional through this..looks like it. Should she have kept her head down and kept quiet when cameras are after her sure. But i dont see the need to judge and bash her.

And my comments in no way are to diminish the suffering or conduct if the victim or her family here. They are on oppisite sides of the spectrum of this case, obviously.

 

[Satchie]

Interesting tidbit from the TB trial in regard to a photo taken of a gun on Feb14,2012 found on DM's hard drive (wasn't this right around the date when LB and CN had their catty texting spat?):

BillAndrews timeline shows the plan/negotiations to purchase the gun began well before the spat, it was coincidence that DM got the gun practically the same day. Not sure when DM heard about the spat, but I speculate that, having a handgun in his possession, lead him to react to it differently than he might have, and come up with a plan of revenge rather than encouraging CN to let it go.

 

[Sillybilly]

From canlii re search of Smich residence

[...]

[52] The applicant submits that the manner of the search of the 1081 Montrose Abbey Drive residence was violent, unjustified and a fundamental breach of his Charter rights.

[53] The police executed the search warrant on May 22, 2013. The police Emergency Response Unit entered first using a battering ram on the front door and employing a distraction device as they entered. According to the evidence, Officer King was positioned in the backyard. He saw the applicant’s mother, whom he described as “older”, in the backyard. He “hollered” for her to come to him, but she “ignored” him and went inside. The police entered the house to find the applicant’s mother coming in from the patio holding gloves and scissors. Officer Ing ordered her to put the items down and to get on the ground. The applicant’s mother was hysterical and not following the instruction. Officer Ing kicked a wooden coffee table out of the way and broke one of its legs against the fireplace. He told the applicant’s mother to sit on the couch, which she did.

[54] Following the entry, the applicant says that his mother told police that they had acted “like animals” in her home. She said if they had just come and showed her the warrant, they could have come in any time. She noted that the garage door had been open. Police were shouting and that they were “shooting” in her home. She said that she was “threatened”, and that she and her dogs were scared.

[55] I must point out that I do not have any evidence of these assertions before me in this application. Smich was not present when the search was executed.

[56] In these types of situations, the police must be allowed a certain amount of latitude in the manner in which they decide to enter premises. They cannot be expected to measure in advance with nuanced precision the amount of force the situation will require: R. v. Asante-Mensah, 2003 SCC 38 (CanLII), [2003] 2 S.C.R. 3, at para. 73; Crampton, at para. 45. Assessments of the police actions after-the-fact must be measured and considered when applied to situations like this where the officers must exercise discretion and judgment in difficult and fluid circumstances. The role of the reviewing court in assessing the manner in which a search has been conducted is to appropriately balance the rights of the accused with the requirements of safety and effective law enforcement.

[...]

bbm

 

[deugirtni]

Thanks for finding those conflicting reports deugirtni. It's very discouraging that reporters sitting in the courtroom are hearing and interpreting things differently from one another. Makes me wonder how the jury is interpreting things and if the evidence really is so confusing that the judge has to also continually ask for some clarification.

MOO

Based on the (lack of) tweets, I'm getting that nobody's really even bothering to attend the trial most of the time (other than Shannon and LH tries to attend when possible)... but I know that the media get to have the trial transcriptions/or whatever - audio? sent to them (like abro will be, or does)... so I'm thinking that is what most reporters are basing their articles on, as opposed to first-hand stuff? (Although if it's audio or even transcriptions, it shouldn't lose anything in the process other than body language, eye glances, and what people were wearing, type of thing??!!). Maybe some don't read as carefully as others?? I do notice there's not much in the way of timelines given throughout that cellphone testimony though???? And even the Crown was said to not be giving the jury any help in deciphering the data??

 

[dar107]

Thanks Sillybee for finding thr Canlii report. I can see both sides to this situation. Im sure she was in shock..panicked. not intentionally ignoring commamds..no mention she threatened anyone with scissors...Likely never had police coming through her home via battering rams before. The police do not know what they are walking into either. Highly adreanalized situation.

 

[Tealgrove]

I'm wondering if LB's phone got thrown in the Credit River. It's very close to Indian Grove.

 

[deugirtni]

I'm wondering if LB's phone got thrown in the Credit River. It's very close to Indian Grove.

Also seems the evidence is suggesting that DM was the one who pitched the phone (and discarded the body at the farm)?