Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #4

[MrsThreadgoode]

I have been thinking about the prior convictions not being disclosed in this trial....

If the Bosma convictions were disclosed to the Babcock jury, the jury would likely find DM and MS guilty. But, what if DM and MS then successfully appealed their Bosma convictions? The whole Babcock outcome would be affected because of the evidence.

I find it difficult to imagine that there are very many jurors in that panel who do not already know about Tim Bosma and MS/DM convictions.

I know they are not allowed to take that into consideration during their deliberations, but it will be in their minds.



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[Stratocaster]

Can anyone add speculation who is to testify today? By all accounts the crown is expected to close it's case this week.

 

[andreww]

I respectfully disagree. All of Laura’s habits changed drastically too. She was always, always using social media, texting, and phoning. Then suddenly ALL of that activity stopped, and her destroyed cellphone was no longer pinging. These changes were drastically out of the ordinary for Laura.

Shawn and Laura had an amicable relationship as evidenced by all he did to help her, so the police had no reason to believe he was some sort of threat to her.

The police didn’t pay enough attention to what was being told to them by Shawn and Laura’s parents.

All of the latter was thoroughly explained to the police. At the very least, they should have had an interview with DM. That they didn’t do that is the height of egregious dereliction of duty. They knew via cell records that all of Laura’s last calls were to Dellen.

We well know about all the evidence that was readily available on DMs and MS devices. The police could have clued in very quickly ... had they done their job and taken the first step.

No excuses are valid ones in this case.

They need to be held accountable. End of story.


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Its very easy to armchair quarterback something like this after the fact. However, in the real world things like staffing and budget come in to play. When you talk about this case specifically, the answer seems pretty clear and your opinions make a lot of sense. Every year hundreds, if not thousands of people go missing across the GTA. Do you honestly think there are resources to assign a detective to every single case? In a perfect world maybe. But 99.9% of these cases resolve themselves and the person turns up.

Secondly, and you probably don't want to hear this, Laura was in a downward spiral. She was a drug user, she was a prostitute, she was all but homeless. You talk about phone records and online footprint, but that could easily have been accounted for by Laura losing her phone or selling it for drug money. You guys try to point out that she "suddenly" dropped off the radar, but in fact she had been disappearing for quite some time. She was an adult, she left her home willingly and chose to prostitute herself, so was she truly missing or did she just not want to be found? Sure, if TPS had put a detective on it and given him a week, he might have turned something up, or maybe not. Would things have changed if cops had visited Millard? I think not. If you recall, cops visited Millard regarding the Bobcat theft and nothing happened. If you look back in time you will see Paul Bernardo was interviewed several times before he was ever arrested. Some people just have the ability to fool the cops. They don't sweat, they don't shake, they don't get flustered. Millard would have just repeated what he told SL anyway.

 

[gremlingrrl]

I have been thinking about the prior convictions not being disclosed in this trial....

If the Bosma convictions were disclosed to the Babcock jury, the jury would likely find DM and MS guilty. But, what if DM and MS then successfully appealed their Bosma convictions? The whole Babcock outcome would be affected because of the evidence.

Precisely. And even before that, you get into what's essentially a trial within a trial, outlining and proving to this jury the path to the convictions re. Bosma. And then there is the overall issue that this information is prejudicial.

 

[Grey-St]

Its very easy to armchair quarterback something like this after the fact. However, in the real world things like staffing and budget come in to play. When you talk about this case specifically, the answer seems pretty clear and your opinions make a lot of sense. Every year hundreds, if not thousands of people go missing across the GTA. Do you honestly think there are resources to assign a detective to every single case? In a perfect world maybe. But 99.9% of these cases resolve themselves and the person turns up.

Secondly, and you probably don't want to hear this, Laura was in a downward spiral. She was a drug user, she was a prostitute, she was all but homeless. You talk about phone records and online footprint, but that could easily have been accounted for by Laura losing her phone or selling it for drug money. You guys try to point out that she "suddenly" dropped off the radar, but in fact she had been disappearing for quite some time. She was an adult, she left her home willingly and chose to prostitute herself, so was she truly missing or did she just not want to be found? Sure, if TPS had put a detective on it and given him a week, he might have turned something up, or maybe not. Would things have changed if cops had visited Millard? I think not. If you recall, cops visited Millard regarding the Bobcat theft and nothing happened. If you look back in time you will see Paul Bernardo was interviewed several times before he was ever arrested. Some people just have the ability to fool the cops. They don't sweat, they don't shake, they don't get flustered. Millard would have just repeated what he told SL anyway.

LB's "downward spiral" should have been more of a reason to look for her. She was vulnerable, and could have been in a great deal of danger (and evidently, she was). This isn't an isolated incident, LE continually disregard marginalized and vulnerable people, and view them as being unworthy. I agree that DM could have easily fooled LE, but the issue remains that they didn't even try.

Edit to add: For crying out loud, they cared about a stolen Bobcat more than a human life.

 

[Woodland]

Its very easy to armchair quarterback something like this after the fact. However, in the real world things like staffing and budget come in to play. When you talk about this case specifically, the answer seems pretty clear and your opinions make a lot of sense. Every year hundreds, if not thousands of people go missing across the GTA. Do you honestly think there are resources to assign a detective to every single case? In a perfect world maybe. But 99.9% of these cases resolve themselves and the person turns up.

Secondly, and you probably don't want to hear this, Laura was in a downward spiral. She was a drug user, she was a prostitute, she was all but homeless. You talk about phone records and online footprint, but that could easily have been accounted for by Laura losing her phone or selling it for drug money. You guys try to point out that she "suddenly" dropped off the radar, but in fact she had been disappearing for quite some time. She was an adult, she left her home willingly and chose to prostitute herself, so was she truly missing or did she just not want to be found? Sure, if TPS had put a detective on it and given him a week, he might have turned something up, or maybe not. Would things have changed if cops had visited Millard? I think not. If you recall, cops visited Millard regarding the Bobcat theft and nothing happened. If you look back in time you will see Paul Bernardo was interviewed several times before he was ever arrested. Some people just have the ability to fool the cops. They don't sweat, they don't shake, they don't get flustered. Millard would have just repeated what he told SL anyway.

If this is how things work in the real world as far as missing people go, why is TPS lacking what it takes to take the stand and say so?

The reality is when 22 Div showed up to attend the death of WM, they should have been alerted by their own internal communications that 22 Div was aware that DM was the last person known to have communication with a missing person. The fact this did not happen should be acknowledged in the real world with an assurance it won't happen again - imo.

This is the armchair quarterbacking that many want answers to, not the watered down version that hundreds if not thousands go missing across the GTA every year. If most turn up, at what point does it become alarming that a few have not? Would it hurt TPS to advise the public what their policy is and wether it was followed or not?

 

[loveisthemovement]

For little 'ol me who was vacationing in Mexico last week partyguy, can anyone update me? Looks like there was no court yesterday. I think I missed MM testifying...

 

[inbetweendoors]

For little 'ol me who was vacationing in Mexico last week partyguy, can anyone update me? Looks like there was no court yesterday. I think I missed MM testifying...

She was examined by the Crown on Friday, they were off yesterday, and defense starts their cross today.
She said she was there on the 23rd when the incinerator was used but was told not to look and didn't see much. That was basically the extent of it.

ETA: Reading Friday's testimony shouldn't take long if you want to go back and catch up. We were all a little disappointed that not much info was gleaned and they were done before lunch.

 

[Inspector_North]

If this is how things work in the real world as far as missing people go, why is TPS lacking what it takes to take the stand and say so?

The reality is when 22 Div showed up to attend the death of WM, they should have been alerted by their own internal communications that 22 Div was aware that DM was the last person known to have communication with a missing person. The fact this did not happen should be acknowledged in the real world with an assurance it won't happen again - imo.

This is the armchair quarterbacking that many want answers to, not the watered down version that hundreds if not thousands go missing across the GTA every year. If most turn up, at what point does it become alarming that a few have not? Would it hurt TPS to advise the public what their policy is and wether it was followed or not?

I see the day, and not too far in the distant future that collection and recording of information by LE will be the key to resolving cases, and identifying links. While most LE have Databases, the future is AI technology like IBM's WATSON, which is a Question and Answer machine. It would free up more time for collection, and provide leads to those that are following up on WATSON's answers. But like all AI technology, garbage in = garbage out. MOO

PS. It would also provide analysis of witnesses testimonies for both the crown and the defense.

 

[mimimic]

Crown thinks they should be wrapped up by the end of the week.

For little 'ol me who was vacationing in Mexico last week partyguy, can anyone update me? Looks like there was no court yesterday. I think I missed MM testifying...

 

[Coldpizza]

Good morning. Today's thread is open for posting.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Trial-11-21-17-Day-19&p=13768004#post13768004

Thanks to those that can help with the tweets.

This thread will be closing shortly.

 

[andreww]

If this is how things work in the real world as far as missing people go, why is TPS lacking what it takes to take the stand and say so?

The reality is when 22 Div showed up to attend the death of WM, they should have been alerted by their own internal communications that 22 Div was aware that DM was the last person known to have communication with a missing person. The fact this did not happen should be acknowledged in the real world with an assurance it won't happen again - imo.

This is the armchair quarterbacking that many want answers to, not the watered down version that hundreds if not thousands go missing across the GTA every year. If most turn up, at what point does it become alarming that a few have not? Would it hurt TPS to advise the public what their policy is and wether it was followed or not?

Problem with your suggestion is that it relies on police opening files on people that may not have any criminal involvement which may violate citizens rights. In fact, the practice of carding, which allowed police to quickly identify Millard as the main suspect in TBs murder has already been stopped if I recall correctly. Sometimes police work isn't as simple as people make it out to be.

 

[Woodland]

Problem with your suggestion is that it relies on police opening files on people that may not have any criminal involvement which may violate citizens rights. In fact, the practice of carding, which allowed police to quickly identify Millard as the main suspect in TBs murder has already been stopped if I recall correctly. Sometimes police work isn't as simple as people make it out to be.

TPS has not stopped carding - so if they have time for that, they should have time to question the last person known to have contact with a missing person. It's not a file on the last known contact - yet - it's part of the file for the missing person. Imo.

It's been reported a few times in MSM that the medical examiners office did not close their file on WM, only TPS did. It will be interesting during that trial if that is mentioned or not.

 

[gremlingrrl]

What if you're hurting her while you **** her, as she invited. And then you just don't stop.

I'm ill just thinking about it, but I think this is exactly what happened. And knowing how DM views human life and specifically the people around him (ie as things with varying levels of utility to him), and understanding how vile, violent, destructive, and detached his thought process is (not to mention his tendency to blame others for his self-inflicted troubles), this was a very, very personal murder. And deeply personal murders often involve more than a quick gunshot. All MOO.

 

[Coldpizza]

Good morning. Today's thread is open for posting.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Trial-11-21-17-Day-19&p=13768004#post13768004

Thanks to those that can help with the tweets.

This thread will be closing shortly.

Shannon Martin‏
@ShannonMartinTV
11m11 minutes ago
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After almost an hour of legal discussions, Justice Michael Code calls for the jury.

Marlena Meneses is in the witness box.

Closing up now.