Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #2

[winter2017]

I have heard a lot about the mattress hopefully more will be explained about it. I think some said that he could have burned it at the farm and that probably could be true.

 

[Tealgrove]

I know some people that could have helped Laura Babcock get some help, I feel really bad I wished I could have helped her. She had two conditions one mental health and addictions.

The sad part about mental illness is that sometimes, no matter how much you want to help or DO help, if the person on the other side of the equation isn't willing to take their medications and do the work that is required to "understand" their illness and treat it as an illness, then all help is a lost cause.

Laura needed to do some work herself. Unfortunately, by using street drugs in combination with whatever else she was taking, drinking, etc., made helping Laura a huge task. We've already heard from witnesses that when Laura took her meds she was OK. When she didn't, they knew.

I also think that Laura's mental illness was more complicated and deeper than I originally thought. Your kindness in wishing you could have helped her is very gracious. I'm not sure Laura was in a position to be helped. As sad as that sounds.

MOO

 

[mimimic]

Something to note about the suitcase of spray paint MS had. LB's red bag. As far as DM was concerned it seems he thought MS was still using a black one for tagging. Thought I would go back and read letters he sent to CN to see if anything jumped out in regards to new info (about anything) to the public with LB case. When DM wrote trying to craft some framing onto MS he mentions a black bag he thought CN should say she saw him use. The letter is not about the bag itself, but in passing it seems DM sees MS use the black one for tagging. I also wondered if we looked to see when he got more discloser if he changed his tune on anything because of LB evidence. Waiting to see blocked out portions to those letters. For me personally after a re-read, AM seems a bit more innocent, SS much more guilty than I originally thought.

 

[Factoria]

Something to note about the suitcase of spray paint MS had. LB's red bag. As far as DM was concerned it seems he thought MS was still using a black one for tagging. Thought I would go back and read letters he sent to CN to see if anything jumped out in regards to new info (about anything) to the public with LB case. When DM wrote trying to craft some framing onto MS he mentions a black bag he thought CN should say she saw him use. The letter is not about the bag itself, but in passing it seems DM sees MS use the black one for tagging. I also wondered if we looked to see when he got more discloser if he changed his tune on anything because of LB evidence. Waiting to see blocked out portions to those letters. For me personally after a re-read, AM seems a bit more innocent, SS much more guilty than I originally thought.

I, too, have been re-reading those jailhouse letters (thanks, billandrew!), and am interested to see more of them. I'm sure there were discussions regarding LB that were not able to be entered as evidence in TB's trial.

I found it laughable that DM truly seemed to believe that AM's testimony was his only real stumbling block with respect to that first trial. This guy really seemed to think he was going to get away with everything!

 

[winter2017]

Tealgrove, she was at Camh and told that there was a long wait to get the help she needed. A person that goes there said there are emergency services and I don't know why she did not receive them she was in a serious crisis. Her mental illness did not kill her she was murdered. I know many people with both addictions and mental health problems and they are doing okay with a lot of help. Without the support that is why she was making bad decisions and putting herself in risky situations. She was able to be preyed on by someone like DM because that is what he does. I think on this site it posted about his past with other gf s and one committed suicide, we don't know since we know he is a psychopath if he had something to do with that.

 

[slowsleuthy]

Who was Laura Babcock? A look into her life as the trial into her presumed death continues
By Shannon Martin, CBC News Posted: Nov 06, 2017 5:00 AM ET Last Updated: Nov 06, 2017 7:01 AM ET

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/who-was-laura-babcock-1.4388430

 

[mojatato]

Who got LB the dog, Lacey? I can't find any previous posts about when and who got her the dog.
Another thought that crossed my mind - i wonder if the contents of LB suitcases - clothes, makeup etc. shared with the girlfriends, MM etc. or did they end up in MS's house as well. Curious!

 

[winter2017]

No trial today will be back tomorrow.

 

[Tilly23]

Who got LB the dog, Lacey? I can't find any previous posts about when and who got her the dog.
Another thought that crossed my mind - i wonder if the contents of LB suitcases - clothes, makeup etc. shared with the girlfriends, MM etc. or did they end up in MS's house as well. Curious!

I think LB's dad testified that the family still has Lacey. Here are the tweets from the Day 1 thread:

Caryn Lieberman‏ @caryn_lieberman
Babcock says when Laura came home with the dog it was like “Paris Hilton.” Family still has the dog Lacy.

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
Her parents still have Laura's dog, "Lacy" which she carried "like Paris Hilton." Helped dad get through the years of grief. #Babcock​

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Something to note about the suitcase of spray paint MS had. LB's red bag. As far as DM was concerned it seems he thought MS was still using a black one for tagging. Thought I would go back and read letters he sent to CN to see if anything jumped out in regards to new info (about anything) to the public with LB case. When DM wrote trying to craft some framing onto MS he mentions a black bag he thought CN should say she saw him use. The letter is not about the bag itself, but in passing it seems DM sees MS use the black one for tagging. I also wondered if we looked to see when he got more discloser if he changed his tune on anything because of LB evidence. Waiting to see blocked out portions to those letters. For me personally after a re-read, AM seems a bit more innocent, SS much more guilty than I originally thought.

I believe I read somewhere that the blocked out portions of the letters were "intimate" type musings. Not something that pertained to evidence in the trial and therefore were blocked.

I'm not expecting to see any redacted information from those letters in this trial.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Who got LB the dog, Lacey? I can't find any previous posts about when and who got her the dog.
Another thought that crossed my mind - i wonder if the contents of LB suitcases - clothes, makeup etc. shared with the girlfriends, MM etc. or did they end up in MS's house as well. Curious!

Lacey was a gift to Laura from her ex boyfriend SL.

I too am curious as to whether any property related to LB was found in CN's bedroom at the time of the search. I think we can rule out the possibility that CN would have come forward voluntarily with any evidence, but I suppose it's possible if MM received any clothing or jewelry as a gift from MS that she may have been more co-operative. If she was asked by LE to produce anything MS may have given her or anything DM told her she could have from the house, that would be another bombshell if she unknowingly had any of Laura's property in her possession.

MOO

 

[andreww]

Lacey was a gift to Laura from her ex boyfriend SL.

I too am curious as to whether any property related to LB was found in CN's bedroom at the time of the search. I think we can rule out the possibility that CN would have come forward voluntarily with any evidence, but I suppose it's possible if MM received any clothing or jewelry as a gift from MS that she may have been more co-operative. If she was asked by LE to produce anything MS may have given her or anything DM told her she could have from the house, that would be another bombshell if she unknowingly had any of Laura's property in her possession.

MOO

You sure it was from SL? I seem to recall that she was suing the previous boyfriend, partially for vet bills. Was that for a different dog?

 

[Tealgrove]

Tealgrove, she was at Camh and told that there was a long wait to get the help she needed. A person that goes there said there are emergency services and I don't know why she did not receive them she was in a serious crisis. Her mental illness did not kill her she was murdered. I know many people with both addictions and mental health problems and they are doing okay with a lot of help. Without the support that is why she was making bad decisions and putting herself in risky situations. She was able to be preyed on by someone like DM because that is what he does. I think on this site it posted about his past with other gf s and one committed suicide, we don't know since we know he is a psychopath if he had something to do with that.

BBM

There is no question that LB did NOT die as a result of her mental health issues. 100% she was murdered. I think everyone here agrees that this is the case. I was never suggesting anything other than this.

The problem is that a lot of people with mental health conditions do not treat their conditions as an illness. It is extremely complicated. In order for Laura to get help, she needed to take the meds she was prescribed and take advantage of the emergency services that are in place at CAMH until she was able to get long term care, i.e., a psychiatrist or psychologist. She needed to stop taking street drugs. She needed to care for herself. We really don't know what she was doing between the emerg visits. Did she follow up? We don't know and we certainly cannot armchair diagnose.

What a lot of people don't understand is that once diagnosed, a pill still isn't going to fix everything. The affected person has to take ownership of their condition and work to combat it or manage it. The person has to be honest with their caregivers, doctors, therapists etc. They have to want to do the work to help themselves although it is extremely difficult and complex.

Yes, unscrupulous people were supplying her with drugs. They did. But Laura took them and it appears to have enjoyed them because she continued to take them. Sometimes it's easier to mask the pain than working to make it go away or deal with it. I think Laura was self medicating and that's extremely common. I get it.

I am come from a family that is rife with mental illness. I too have had my struggles, but I chose to combat it and deal with it and understand it. No one helped me or supported me. I did it for myself, by myself. My parents never knew and neither did my sister. I just dealt with it. Different people cope differently.

There was help available for Laura. She was incapable of accepting the type of help that was offered. She may have eventually been able to find a way to deal with it, but we will never know because Dellen Millard and Mark Smich came along and decided to kill her (allegedly )

Laura's story is nothing but tragic. Mental illness, in general, is tragic and complicated. We have no idea what could have been done, or should have been done, to help her. We can only guess.

MOO

 

[Jealoushe]

I have a question regarding evidence gathered.
We know that a great deal of evidence was gathered in the months following the TB murder and arrest of both DM and MS. For the sake of of my inquiry ONLY and not insinuating at all that this happened...what if: They collected a blood sample, a hair sample and say a fingerprint that turned out not to be a match to anyone associated with the TB trial. 1) Where does that evidence go? 2) how long is it kept?
Then..
We now have them investigating LB disappearance a few months later and these 2 are possible suspects. 1) Is LE allowed to go back into that evidence that is now in their possession to apply tests to see if it ties in with LB at their own will? or would they require a search warrant of some kind again to be allowed to test it for their new reasons?? Thanks in advance for any insight you can share.

They are allowed to keep these things on file for as long as they like. Generally with hair, fingerprints, DNA, etc they are stored indefinitely and they can definitely use them in future cases for comparison.

Personal items, depending on the scenario, are kept or returned to the rightful owner after trial.

 

[matou]

The home-made incinerator:

In late 2011 or early 2012, Schlatman testified, Millard asked him to build a homemade incinerator to "burn off garbage" from his properties.
___________

I think we found out that the email or text Shane received about this was from April 2012, right after Noudga's texting snit.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-millard-texts-1.3500740

 

[Obes99]

If a Cardiologist recommends a person to stop eating big macs but they continue, we don't blame the system for failing them.

 

[Jealoushe]

The home-made incinerator:

In late 2011 or early 2012, Schlatman testified, Millard asked him to build a homemade incinerator to "burn off garbage" from his properties.
___________

I think we found out that the email or text Shane received about this was from April 2012, right after Noudga's texting snit.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-millard-texts-1.3500740

omg...look at that crazy thing

 

[matou]

omg...look at that crazy thing

Yeah, just perfectly shaped and and narrow enough to burn extra "garbage" from the hangar. Whatever, Shane.

 

[Tealgrove]

omg...look at that crazy thing

That's what you get when you ask a mechanic to build you an incinerator. LOL Looks more like an old style rocket ship. :facepalm:

 

[Kamille]

You sure it was from SL? I seem to recall that she was suing the previous boyfriend, partially for vet bills. Was that for a different dog?

Yes, SL gave her Lacey and she gave her new boyfriend DA a Siberian husky that went on to rack up the vet bills to the tune of $4000 that she paid for.

It's all in this article, which was an early insight into Laura's life in the time period leading up to her death.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/toront...ck-leaves-lingering-questions-for-police.html

I think it's important to note that Laura did not start this downward spiral until late 2011/early 2012. So when talking about drugs and all of the other things that she was doing, you really have to remember that it was a short time period for this. And it was probably the break up with SL and the new relationship with someone who was into drugs and possibly other nefarious activities that helped propel her into that lifestyle in early 2012.

MOO