GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #4

[gitana1]

The After-Born Child




Very helpful post, gitana1. As always, thanks for your time and expertise.

1. I’ve read the paralegal article you link and I can’t find any reference whatever to posthumous children. Can you quote the part that is relevant?

2. I take it you explicitly disagree with the nolo.com claim that in Illinois, “Relatives conceived before -- but born after -- you die inherit as if they had been born while you were alive.” This does not refer only to a child of a decedent, but to the posthumous (or "after-born") child vis-à-vis other relatives.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...-illinois.html

3. I find it hard to understand why a posthumous child is only relevant to the estate of a parent. For example, the Uniform Probate Code says:

Section 2-104(a)(2) An individual in gestation at a decedent’s death is deemed to be living at the decedent’s death if the individual lives 120 hours after birth.​

http://www.uniformlaws.org/shared/docs/probate code/2014_UPC_Final_apr23.pdf

This is general language, not language specific only to parents, but applicable to grandparents, uncles, etc.

4. The idea of posthumous grandchildren is understood in the law of trusts. According to West's Encyclopedia of American Law, second edition (2008), as an example, if the person making a will or trust restricts it to only grandchildren existing at the time of her death, this still would include an unborn grandchild conceived before her death (the relevant part is near the end, BBM):

The existence of an after-born child has significant legal ramifications upon gifts made under wills and trusts. …

Under the law of trusts, a gift to a class is one in which the creator of the trust, the settlor, directs that the principal of the trust should be distributed to a specifically designated group of persons, such as to grandchildren, who are alive at a certain time, such as at the settlor's death. Any child born after this time would not be entitled to a proportionate share of the trust principal unless conceived before the settlor died. An after-born child born eleven months after the settlor's death, therefore, would not share in the principal, since the class had closed nine months after the settlor's death.​

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/After-Born+Child

5. In a post I made last September, I noted that the idea that a conceived child not yet born at the time of someone else’s death is considered “born” for various legal purposes and this concept has very long historical roots, dating back to Roman law. (Sheila thread Number 2, post #175, with links.)


I recognize that this aspect of the discussion is only relevant if Sheila did not name alternate beneficiaries.

Your point that “[t]ypically, people name alternate beneficiaries in trusts” is particularly important, and could make the discussion of intestate rights of an after-born child completely moot.

It's from your link, which I was responding to:

(755 ILCS 5/2-3) (from Ch. 110 1/2, par. 2-3)
Sec. 2-3. Posthumous child.) A posthumous child of a decedent shall receive the same share of an estate as if the child had been born in the decedent's lifetime.
(Source: P.A. 84-390.)

I cited my link to show that the next in line if there was no living spouse, child, grandchild or parent would be her brother. But let me investigate further. Your cites are pretty specific!

 

[SouthAussie]

I started reading Snowing in Bali this weekend, by Kathryn Bonella. Here is an interesting paragraph I read last night. The $300,000 figure caught my eye.

Pg 87:
"Michael Blanc got busted at Denpasar Airport with 3.8 kilos of hashish in his dive tanks. He could have cut a deal, but didn't. His mother Helene had been told a payment of Aus$330,000-$420,000 could buy her son a 15-year sentence. But she refused, believing her son was innocent, and threw away the only strategy that had a chance of working."


(He was sentenced to life imprisonment in 2000, served 14 years in Cipinang Prison, in Jakarta area, was fined an additional $70,000, and in 2014 was freed and paroled from the prison but will according to the agreement have to stay in Indonesia until his final release date on 21 July 2017. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Blanc)

 

[ajaylee]

As I read the latest developments in the Bali Nine case, it's impossible not to think of HM/TS - and maybe get my hopes up that some semblance of justice might prevail.

Indonesia can't be enjoying the unwanted attention the MS/AC case has brought - particularly threats of a negative impact on Australian tourism, if not more. The new president isn't going to want to lose face. The longer this goes on, the higher Indonesia's profile in the news and the more dirt emerges: accusations of bribes and 'interventions'. Australia's also pointing out Indonesia's hypocrisy on the death penalty for its citizens who are abroad.

Indonesia can survive a hit to American tourism, assuming there were Americans foolish enough to avoid Bali because of HM/TS. The US has no problem with the death penalty. There are already suggestions that corruption is involved in this case because of Soenardi.

It would be a win for everyone if the Indonesians backed off on AC/MS but saved 'face' about being forced to let foreigners off easy, whether because of bribes or foreign government pressure, by sentencing TS and HM appropriately harshly.

 

[SouthAussie]

I agree, ajaylee. They could afford a hit to tourism by the US. It is not a huge US holiday spot. And much of the US shouldn’t kick up about the death penalty, as we are doing.

What I found interesting in the bribery offer for Michael Blanc (that I mentioned above) is that despite the huge chunk of cash they were asking for, a 15 year sentence is what was on offer. So …. perhaps ….. even with a huge chunk of cash from HM (if she can achieve that), the best she will get is no death penalty and a longish sentence.

It still would mean that she would be out of jail by the time she is 35, but she would be deported, without a home or family to return to, and would not get any more of ‘her’ money. And the baby by then should be very well established with a new family to love and care for her - hopefully in a different country that can offer her better opportunities.

 

[ajaylee]

15 years is a 'deal' if the alternative is life. Interesting that a few very high-profile cases actually got harsher penalties imposed on appeal.

I'd like to see Soenardi take HM for everything he can, keep the $ to himself, and let TS and HM get what they deserve.

What could HM do? Accuse Soenardi? Say he didn't deliver on the bribes? He'd point out that his price was exactly the same as her American lawyers were asking, and they can't even practice in Bali. He'd say he's the best there is, but it was a horrible crime and the judges ruled, he'll be happy to handle her appeal - for $$$, of course.

Who is going to believe that she paid a huge bribe for a harsh sentence?

 

[FigTree]

I agree, ajaylee. They could afford a hit to tourism by the US. It is not a huge US holiday spot. And much of the US shouldn’t kick up about the death penalty, as we are doing.

What I found interesting in the bribery offer for Michael Blanc (that I mentioned above) is that despite the huge chunk of cash they were asking for, a 15 year sentence is what was on offer. So …. perhaps ….. even with a huge chunk of cash from HM (if she can achieve that), the best she will get is no death penalty and a longish sentence.

It still would mean that she would be out of jail by the time she is 35, but she would be deported, without a home or family to return to, and would not get any more of ‘her’ money. And the baby by then should be very well established with a new family to love and care for her - hopefully in a different country that can offer her better opportunities.

All stops are coming out to save AC & MS now.
Once more the money and bribery issue is confirmed -

http://www.news.com.au/world/bali-n...or-bribes-lawyer/story-fndir2ev-1227220783812
LAWYERS for the two Bali Nine on death row have alleged, in sensational new claims, that the six judges who gave them the death penalty offered a lighter sentence in exchange for a bribe.
But apparently the lawyers had no money with which to bargain.
-----
Mr Rifan said it was habit, if they requested a lighter term, to provide something to the judges but they had not reached the point of discussing how much.
“So we asked for a lighter sentence, at least 20 years prison term. It is our habit, if we want to request something, we will provide,” Mr Rifan said.
“The problem, at that time, there is no fund that we can give to them. That’s the problem. There is no money that we can give to them.,” he said.
-----
Mr Rifan said that Chan and Sukumaran had been advised to answer `’don’t know” to questions from the judges at the trials — a strategy which is not helpful in an Indonesian court where co-operation and admissions of guilt count for a great deal in mitigation.



With this coming out now, I think it will have an impact on the HM & TS case.
The sheer panic by HM to get money reinforces (to me) just what that money is for.
But, it does not guarantee a lighter sentence unless she additionally admits her part in the crime - and HM is touting her innocence, I dont think any amount of money will see her get off without some punishment.
This also means that the money will have to come to her before the sentencing is delivered otherwise she will be cut off before she can pay her bribes - there will be no money for her.
It is the main reason that will delay her trial - and I think we can expect to see a few more delays before sentencing to try every effort to get this money.

 

[SouthAussie]

I was wondering last night, how the judges in HM and TS’ trials are holding up under the current intense scrutiny about judges being bribed.

Whether or not they are personally involved in the Bali Nine briberies, let’s hope that the huge publicity that this is getting here in Australia will make them sit up straight and behave.

Can anyone tell us, is this Bali Nine bribery publicity hitting the US - and in particular the Chicago area?

 

[SouthAussie]

With this coming out now, I think it will have an impact on the HM & TS case.
The sheer panic by HM to get money reinforces (to me) just what that money is for.
But, it does not guarantee a lighter sentence unless she additionally admits her part in the crime - and HM is touting her innocence, I dont think any amount of money will see her get off without some punishment.
This also means that the money will have to come to her before the sentencing is delivered otherwise she will be cut off before she can pay her bribes - there will be no money for her.
It is the main reason that will delay her trial - and I think we can expect to see a few more delays before sentencing to try every effort to get this money.

RSBM

BBM: Good point, FigTree! She would be required to admit her guilt (boom boom ... there goes the trust fund ).

 

[FigTree]

I was wondering last night, how the judges in HM and TS’ trials are holding up under the current intense scrutiny about judges being bribed.

Whether or not they are personally involved in the Bali Nine briberies, let’s hope that the huge publicity that this is getting here in Australia will make them sit up straight and behave.

Can anyone tell us, is this Bali Nine bribery publicity hitting the US - and in particular the Chicago area?

Its only my opinion, but beyond the fact that it was mentioned by WW, I think they will be watching this news like hawks because it bolsters and confirms the reasoning for the way the funds are being distributed with the conditions imposed - its like a verification.

Still yet so see any more news out of Bali or Chicago.
Maybe they have taken HM's Ruckus phone away from her so she cant give any impromptu interviews.

 

[Kamille]

RSBM

BBM: Good point, FigTree! She would be required to admit her guilt (boom boom ... there goes the trust fund ).

I was just going to post that she cannot admit any guilt because then she would be cut off of all funds. Well other than what's been sent so far. Question is, has she told AS that her deal must be one in which she is considered innocent so she can get her hands on more money?

And is AS aware that there is a trustee, a judge and an uncle who is also supposed to be overseeing those funds until she's 30? And who will likely be launching a wrongful death civil suit against her if she does get off on all charges related to killing her mother? So AS is not going to be seeing any more money anytime soon IMO. He needs to cut his losses here, pocket the 50 grand for services rendered and just let the evidence speak for itself.

MOO

 

[ajaylee]

I'm wondering if any of the judges in the current trial were among the six accused of wanting bribes in the MS/AC trial.

I'm also guessing that AS is impressing upon HM the importance of payment in full up-front. He'll blame the judges, but the truth is, they all know that if they don't get the $$ up front, good luck getting it later. This is particularly true now: unlike drug dealers like Ponder who might have the ready cash already in Indonesia, HM doesn't have unfettered access to her money. It's public knowledge. All the more reason for AS not to trust her to pay him later.

 

[gitana1]

Sheila’s Alternate Beneficiaries

We haven’t seen Sheila’s trust document, nor have we seen the text of any motions filed in Judge Cohen’s court which refer to this document. All our information (as I understand it) about alternate beneficiaries of Sheila’s trust is either second-hand or implied.

An experienced lawyer, gitana1 tells us that typically people name alternate beneficiaries in trusts. This makes sense to me.

So, if Sheila did name alternate beneficiaries, who are they?

The Cook County Record reports that Anthony Scifo, Heather’s attorney, filed a seven-page emergency motion on January 15. It resulted in a January 16 hearing in the court of Judge Neil Cohen to discuss releasing some of the funds from Sheila’s trust to pay for Heather’s defense. The article also says:

It [the motion] goes on to explain that Mack is the sole beneficiary of her mother’s trust and Wiese, as its trustee, as well as next in line to inherit the funds — about $1.56 million, as of Dec. 30 — behind Mack and her unborn child. [BBM]​

So Scifo’s motion claimed that Stella inherits before William Wiese.

http://cookcountyrecord.com/news/26...-county-seeking-trust-funds-to-pay-for-lawyer

Judge Cohen seems to accept that the beneficiary “line” runs from Heather first to Stella second to William Wiese third. The Chicago Tribune reported that in the hearing on January 16 Cohen said that “Mack's uncle could receive proceeds from the trust if she [Heather] is executed and her baby girl does not survive.” [BBM]

http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-82554099/

Some questions:

1. I assume Scifo, as Heather’s attorney, has read the trust document. Assuming the Cook County Record is accurately reporting Scifo’s motion, what do people here conclude about his claim that Heather and then Stella stand in line to inherit from Sheila’s trust before William Wiese? Do you think this means Sheila made her grandchildren her first alternate beneficiaries? If not, why would Scifo name William Wiese as inheriting only after Stella?

2. Scifo's argument's against William Wiese controlling the trust would have been even stronger if he had argued that WW would inherit immediately after Heather (without the child intervening), yet he didn't advance that argument. What reason could there by except that Stella is named as alternate beneficiary first? (Obviously in general terms: "my grandchildren" or somesuch.)

3. Judge Cohen similarly puts both Heather and Stella in front of William Wiese as benefiting from Sheila’s trust. Before the hearing commenced, would Judge Cohen have read the trust document? Would that be the usual course if he was being asked to rule on use of the trust? Or would he rely on representations by lawyers in submitted motions and claims made during the hearing as to what the trust said? Cohen explicitly quoted the provisions of the trust during that hearing, noting that it was for the "health, support, education and maintenance" of sole beneficiary Heather Mack. Was this because he read the document or only motions which selected bits and pieces to serve their own purposes?

Naturally, they could be mistaken or sloppy. What do others think?

Doesn’t it seem possible (likely?) that Sheila made some provision, “in the alternate” for her grandchildren before she did for her brother? Why else would Heather’s attorney and Judge Cohen say that Stella stands between William Wiese and Sheila’s trust? Wouldn't a woman who was prepared to give all her money to a monster have no qualms about giving it, in the alternative, to the monster's children (who could well be be minors at her death) before giving it to a brother with a career and stability and who is relatively late and settled in life?

Great find, Orange. That certainly settles that. Stella is in line to inherit.
Many people do put in provisions regarding future grand kids so they don't have to keep revising it.

 

[Mountain Misst]

Thanks for the interesting information. Being ignorant of that explains why I was puzzled.

What does "co" stand for? Does Columbia have a new and different top level domain?

Follow the link and you will find your answer OT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.co

 

[IslandLover]

It looks like the Bali Nine pair have reached the end of the line. Very sad.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...air-to-be-transferred-this-week-for-execution

 

[Weezer Fan]

This article speaks about the corruption in the Indonesia court system and talks about sacking judges involved with the Bali 9. I post it because I believe this tells us that we do not know what to expect with HM and TS. Without the media scrutiny from the Bali 9, I think they (HM/TS) could have gotten off, or at least gotten much reduced sentences. They still could. Or, things could go the other way.

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world...sacked-for-corruption-manipulation/ar-AA9hOo5

BTW-it was stated in many articles when the prosecution provided their evidence in court that the lead Judge is Made Suweda of the 3 judges of both HM and TS's trial. I could not find the other judges names or the prosecutors names. Also, I did a quick search to see if Made Suweda's name came up before this trial, but didn't see anything.

 

[Weezer Fan]

This article speaks about the corruption in the Indonesia court system and talks about sacking judges involved with the Bali 9. I post it because I believe this tells us that we do not know what to expect with HM and TS. Without the media scrutiny from the Bali 9, I think they (HM/TS) could have gotten off, or at least gotten much reduced sentences. They still could. Or, things could go the other way.

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world...sacked-for-corruption-manipulation/ar-AA9hOo5

BTW-it was stated in many articles when the prosecution provided their evidence in court that the lead Judge is Made Suweda of the 3 judges of both HM and TS's trial. I could not find the other judges names or the prosecutors names. Also, I did a quick search to see if Made Suweda's name came up before this trial, but didn't see anything.

Actually, I did find this:
State prosecutor Eddy Arta Wijaya argued Wednesday that the indictment and the charges are very clear. - See more at: http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...rial-should-proceed.html#sthash.4u8NbcH5.dpuf
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...or-americans-murder-trial-should-proceed.html

Just thought I'd put the name of one of the judges and one of the prosecutors up here in case anyone has seen them before.

 

[SouthAussie]

This article speaks about the corruption in the Indonesia court system and talks about sacking judges involved with the Bali 9. I post it because I believe this tells us that we do not know what to expect with HM and TS. Without the media scrutiny from the Bali 9, I think they (HM/TS) could have gotten off, or at least gotten much reduced sentences. They still could. Or, things could go the other way.

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world...sacked-for-corruption-manipulation/ar-AA9hOo5

BTW-it was stated in many articles when the prosecution provided their evidence in court that the lead Judge is Made Suweda of the 3 judges of both HM and TS's trial. I could not find the other judges names or the prosecutors names. Also, I did a quick search to see if Made Suweda's name came up before this trial, but didn't see anything.

I put up a link earlier in the threads, Weezer Fan, about Made Suweda. He is a Chief Judge, and also presides in the Denpasar Corruption Court.


"For the trial scheduled to be held on June 3, 2014 by Judge Chief, Made Suweda, in Denpasar Corruption Court."

http://www.thebalitimes.com/2014/06...institute-threaten-for-20-years-imprisonment/

 

[Weezer Fan]

I put up a link earlier in the threads, Weezer Fan, about Made Suweda. He is a Chief Judge, and also presides in the Denpasar Corruption Court.


"For the trial scheduled to be held on June 3, 2014 by Judge Chief, Made Suweda, in Denpasar Corruption Court."

http://www.thebalitimes.com/2014/06...institute-threaten-for-20-years-imprisonment/

It is interesting that he has been part of the Corruption Court.

 

[SouthAussie]

There is a case here involving chief prosecutor Eddy Arta Wijaya. A Japanese tourist was raped and murdered. Wijaya asked for death, the perp got 20 years. Judges' comments ....

"The judges said that the sadistic nature of the murder, the fact that Rika Sano was an only child and the damage done to Bali's reputation all weighed against the defendant. In partial mitigation, the judges pointed to the polite demeanor of the Wicaksono during the trial process; his admission of guilt; and requests for forgiveness made to the family of the victim, the Japanese consul in Bali and Bali's tourism industry. "

http://www.balidiscovery.com/update/update713.asp

 

[SouthAussie]

Here is another case involving Eddy Arat Wijaya, and the murder of an Aussie girl in Bali.

"They sentenced him to 15 years' jail.

"We find the defendant Fahrul Rosi has been proven officially and convincingly guilty of committing burglary with violence, causing death," Chief Judge Daniel Palittin told the court.

"The defendant unintentionally committed murder against the victim.

"The defendant went to the victim's place to steal. During the burglary the victim woke up, the defendant panicked and blindingly stabbed the victim." (now we know where Tommy gets his version of events from)

The court noted Rosi's confession and the remorse he had expressed for his actions, including an apology to Ms Murphy's family.

But it also noted the inhumane nature of the crime, and the fact that Rosi, who had a lengthy criminal record, profited from it.

Prosecutor Eddy Artha Wijaya had demanded Rosi be handed a life jail term, describing Ms Murphy's slaying as cruel and bad for Bali's tourism industry."

http://www.dance.net/topic/7536003/...The-killing-was-unintentional.html&replies=10