barbara mackle ransom note discredits some RDI RN pet theories

  • #61
How much time do you think it took Rs to write this RN?

At LEAST 45 minutes.

Just to expand on that, a better question might be, "how long did all of the other staging take?" Because you have to factor that in.

Another thing you have to factor in is that they couldn't play for more time because of their travel arrangements that morning. Everybody in town KNEW they were leaving early, including their pilot. If they hadn't shown, somebody would have come looking for them. They really didn't have a choice but to play it out as it was, IMO.
 
  • #62
Killing kids, except in self-defense, doesn't either.

That's EXACTLY what I've been saying, voynich. That's pretty much the problem with this case, as I see it: trying to make sense of the senseless. Killing children NEVER makes sense to me. And the day it DOES, I will pray for death.

Holdontoyourhat said:
"No time" because they 'needed to catch a flight' is RDI myth to excuse inconsistencies in their stories. Everything the R's do that you or I would never do is explained away due to their 'haste'. "Of course they would do that silly thing, they were in such a hurry"

Yeah, that's just what I used to say.

Holdontoyourhat said:
"The note was examined by experts who agreed that the original ransom note and the second note were written by the same person." Its the concensus RDI wanted but never got.

Handwriting analysis was A LOT different back then, HOTYH. I think it's helpful to remember that La Marca couldn't afford his own "experts" either, hint, hint.

Holdontoyourhat said:
Very remarkable is how they used only the handwriting itself to find the kidnapper. It seemed to be a large scale effort on the part of the FBI that solved the case.

Yeah. Damn shame nothing like that in this case.

voynich said:
Has this group at the FBI ever had any consensus on the handwriting match between PR and RN?

Just to butt in here, voynich, I don't think this group (if it still exists) ever examined the note. But I know there were three examiners who have TAUGHT handwriting analysis at the FBI (among other places) who came to an agreement.

There was something else, too. The FBI had the Vidocq Society go over the note. It's never been said exactly what their opinion was, but since the police redoubled the focus on the Rs afterwards, I think we can make an educated guess.

voynich said:
Perhaps JMK should be added in.

How do you mean?
 
  • #63
so what are the other rn notes we can compare/contrast to?

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Comparison%20to%20Other%20Famous%20RN's


Crime: May 21, 1924
Arrest: May, 29, 1924
Duration: 8 days


Dear Sir;
As you no doubt know by this time your son has been kidnapped. Allow me to ensure you that he is at present well and safe. You need fear no physical harm for him provided you live up carefully to the following instructions, and to such others as you will receive by future communications. Should you however, disobey any of our instructions even slightly, his death will be the penalty.
1. For obvious reasons make absolutely no attempt to communicate with either police authorities or any private agency. Should you already have communicated with the police, allow them to continue their investigations, but do not mention this letter.
2. Secure before noon today $10,000. This money must be composed entirely of old bills of the following denominations: $2000 in $20 bills, $8000 in $50 bills. The money must be old. Any attempt to include new or marked bills will render the entire venture futile.
3. The money should be placed in a large cigar box, or if this is impossible, in a heavy cardboard box, securely closed and wrapped in white paper. The wrapping paper should be sealed at all openings with sealing wax.
4. Have the money with you, prepared as directed above, and remain at home after one o'clock. See that the telephone is not in use.
You will receive a future communication instruction you as to your future orders.
As a final word of warning - this is a strictly commercial proposition, and we are prepared to put our threat into execution should we have reasonable to believe that you committed an infraction of the above instructions. However, should you carefully follow out out instructions to the letter, we can assure you that your son will be safely returned to you within six hours of our receipt of the money.
Yours truly,
George Johnson





Crime: July 4, 1956
Arrest: August 23, 1956
Duration: 50 days



Attention

I'm sorry this had to happen, but I am in bad need of money, & couldn't get it any other way.

Don't tell anyone or go to the Police about this, because I am watching you closely. I am scared stiff, & will kill the baby, at your first wrong move.

Just put $2000.00 (Two thousand) in small bills in a brown envelope, & place it next to the sign Post at the corner of Albermule Rd & Park Ave. at Exactly 10 oclock tomorrow (Thursday) morning. If everything goes smooth, I will bring the baby back & leave him on the same corner "Safe & Happy" at exactly 12 noon.

No excuses, I can't wait!

Your baby sitter.




Crime: December 17, 1968
Arrest: December 21, 1968
Duration: 4 days


Sir, your daughter has been kidnapped by us and we now
hold her for ransom. She is quite safe, if somewhat
uncomfortable. We offer no proof of our possession of her
at this time. It will arrive by mail in a few days. Barbara is
presently alive inside a small capsule buried in a remote
piece of soil. She has enough food and water and air to
last seven days. At the end of the seven days the life supporting
batteries will be discharged and her air supply will be cut off.

The box is waterproof and very strong-fiberglass reinforced
plywood-she has little chance of escaping. The box is in an unusual and lonely place. She has no chance of being accidently stumbled upon.

Contemplate, if you will, the position into which this puts
you. If you pay the ransom prior to seven days,
we will tell you of her whereabouts. Should you catch the
messenger we send to pick up the ransom, we will simply
not say anything to anyone and ergo Barbara will
suffocate. The messenger knows only one of us and he will report to us via radio from the pickup site. We will immediately know his fate.

Should you catch all, of us we will never admit anything as to do
so would be suicide and again-she will die. As you can see, you don't want to catch us for to do so would be condemning your lovely and intelligent daughter to death. The police may allow you to have a free hand prior to the return of your daughter
should you be so callous as to contact them. If you ask the police to advise you in this matter please be aware that
their very presence will scare us off. We can see no way for you to secure the safe return of your daughter other than to obey instructions explicitly.

1) Although we will always anticipate the involvement of the police in this situation, be assured that if your communication with them or their actual presence is detected, we will break off negotiations with you immediately. We have tied into several
of the possible means of communications that you have with the police and feel that you will be unable to contact them without our
knowledge.

2) The ransom will be $500,000 in recently issued $20 bills. Here are the requirements you must meet in this matter:
The notes must not be older than 1950 issue.
No more than ten notes must have consecutive serial numbers; ie., the notes must have a great variety of serial-numbers and not be merely shuffled.
The notes must be Federal Reserve notes of standard configuration.

No more than one-half of the notes may be uncirculated.

No form of marking on the bills is acceptable. Please note that the bills will undergo a minimum of eight hours of intense examination before we allow you to have knowledge of the subject's whereabouts. We have planned a series of 44 tests on a large representative of the bills. These tests include every chemical and physical test of any remote applicability.


No omission, shaving, spotting, cutting, counterfeiting, irradiating, ad nos will go undetected.

3) The bills should occupy no more than 400 cubic inches and thusly fit into a standard large suitcase of inside dimensions 31.5" longx18.75" highx6.25" deep. Purchase such a suitcase and lock the bills inside.
When you have the money in readiness, call all the Miami
area major newspapers and place the following ad in the "personal" section of the classified advertisemsnts:

"Loved one-please come home. We will pay all expenses
and meet you anywhere at anytime. Your Family."

Prepare your car for a trip and on the night of the ad's first appearance we will call you at home after midnight to advise you of where you must go to deliver the money. You must be the one to deliver the money, Robert. You will dress yourself in an all-white outfit. You must use the Lincoln to deliver the money.

In order to prevent the instructional call being traced it will be very brief and no portion of it will be repeated. If the phone rings more than three times or the connection takes longer than 15 seconds we will not contact you. You will have a limited period of time to make the rendezvous so you should be ready to leave your house within one minute of receiving the phone call in order to be within the time limit. You will proceed to the area of the meeting within the legal speed limit as if you were in no hurry. We will not meet you if you fail to show within the time limit which is only a short time longer than you will require to drive to the pickup site. Any unusual police activity or other activity in the area of the pick up will cancel the appointment.

When you arrive at the pick up site you will know it by a signal of three short flashes repeated continuously from a flashlight directed at the windshield of your car. When you see the signal you will stop the car and immediately take the suitcase toward the light. The light will be mounted on the top of a box. The suitcase should be placed within the box. You will then return to your car and proceed back up the street, in the direction from which you came and go home.

Any deviation from this outline will result in your death.
Our messenger will have you in his sights from the time you leave your car. Within twelve hours after you deliver the money you will receive another call advising you of your daughter's whereabouts. A letter will be sent also to insure the findings of your daughter.




Crime: December 25 or 26, 1996
Arrest: None
Duration: 4,534 days and counting



"Mr. Ramsey: Listen Carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business, but not the country it serves.
At this time, we have your daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.
You will withdraw $118,000 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank.
When you get home, you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we monitor you getting the money early we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence and earlier pickup of your daughter.
Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for a proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as police or F.B.I. will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in way marked or tampered with, she dies. You can try to deceive us, but be warned we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.
You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% of getting her back. You and your family are under constant scrutiny, as well as the authorities.
Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, John. Use that good, Southern common sense of yours. It's up to you now John!

Victory!
S.B.T.C."
 
  • #64
Handwriting analysis was A LOT different back then, HOTYH. I think it's helpful to remember that La Marca couldn't afford his own "experts" either, hint, hint.

RDI likes to use this itty-bitty figure 8 to show a so-called match between PR and RN author handwriting. Its like saying 'look, those two periods at the end of the sentences are identical!"

Go ahead, and compare LaMarca capital letters with his RN and then do the same thing with PR & RN authors.

http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/weinber/weinbernew.htm

Click on the image to enlarge.
 
  • #65
RDI likes to use this itty-bitty figure 8 to show a so-called match between PR and RN author handwriting.

The q=8 is only one of MANY examples we could use, HOTYH! So darn right, we'll use it.

Its like saying 'look, those two periods at the end of the sentences are identical!"

Give me a break!

Go ahead, and compare LaMarca capital letters with his RN and then do the same thing with PR & RN authors.

What do you THINK I've been doing?
 
  • #66
Now the Ramsey's is 377 words and it's not the longest..So I began researching other ransom notes so I haven't found where the person kidnapped was found in their home so far the search just shows JonBenet..In this thread it shows that in three cases arrest was made... What does this show maybe an intruder wasn't involed.. Now since 1900's we have came a long way with technology..
 
  • #67
The q=8 is only one of MANY examples we could use, HOTYH! So darn right, we'll use it.

Its just that its very indescript. You know, like a period or a circle. Maybe the CDE's just didn't see the obvious like they did in the La Marca RN. Boy that La Marca handwriting was a ringer, doncha think? And the idea that they searched thru scads of random handwriting and spotted a match is just unbelieveable, is it not??


What do you THINK I've been doing?

I have no clue there.
 
  • #68
Its just that its very indiscript. You know, like a period or a circle.

Well, I may not necessarily agree with that, but I can get what you're saying. I find I actually like you when you have something to say, not just a bunch of snark. I'm always willing to answer your questions if you have any.

Maybe the CDE's just didn't see the obvious like they did in the La Marca RN.

You may be more right than you know.
Even voynich and I agree (last I knew) that since a marker was used in the RN you have to take a different tack than you would with, say, a ball-point pen. Leaving that aside for a moment, HOTYH, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable making a comparison that's 40+ years older than this one, if for no other reason than a lot has changed in the document examination game since then. Not the least of which is the emergence of groupthink and politicking that I keep mentioning.

Boy that La Marca handwriting was a ringer, doncha think? And the idea that they searched thru scads of random handwriting and spotted a match is just unbelieveable, is it not??

I'll say!

I have no clue there.

Hey, if you want to know something about me, just ask.
 
  • #69
More RDI ransom note fallacies:
  • if one statement is a lie, the whole thing is a lie.
  • it has to be a lie because JBR was found dead in the basement not kidnapped
  • someone who murdered a child never tells the truth
  • its obvious that foreign faction is a lie because no foreign faction member could write that effectively in English
  • common sense tells us it was a lie
This lie fallacy isn't based on the other ransom notes, because they have mostly truthful statements. The fallacy isn't based on case knowledge, because we don't have any. Whe don't know when or why the RN was written. The fallacy isn't based on any objective documentary or linguistic testing.

The ransom note lie fallacy is based exclusively on the presupposed notion that PR wrote it, thats all.
 
  • #70
In my opinion the foreign faction is a lie cause there would have been more than one person in that house that night.. And I'm not saying they would be dumb to writting actually they take pride in their cause just remember 9/11.. I don't believe this is a foreign faction cause someone took more time trying to make the kidnapper look dumb..
 
  • #71
The ransom note lie fallacy is based exclusively on the presupposed notion that PR wrote it, thats all.

Silly me, I thought it was based on the Quantico analysis.
 
  • #72
Silly me, I thought it was based on the Quantico analysis.

Silly you. Quantico doesn't have any analysis where the RN was ruled to be a lie. How could they?
 
  • #73
Silly you. Quantico doesn't have any analysis where the RN was ruled to be a lie. How could they?

Well, they could say it was a lie because she wasn't kidnapped. She was right there in the home.
 
  • #74
Repeating for your sake, the ransom note may have been written before JBR was murdered, and the original intention may have been to kidnap JBR. We won't know what was a lie or a truth in the RN until we have the killer's side.

Statements in the other RN's were mostly truthful, and we know that because those crimes were solved. The idea that any statement in this RN is somehow patently false is a fallacy, another RDI myth, a disinformation, a distraction from the truth.
 
  • #75
Seems to me the RN itself is disinformation and a distraction from the truth.
 
  • #76
Seems to me the RN itself is disinformation and a distraction from the truth.


The RN author wanted 118K in a brown bag. He represented a small foreign faction. He didn't belong to a foreign faction, he represented one. He didn't think killing fat cats would be difficult. He didn't want JR to grow a brain. JBR was safe and unharmed. She would be killed if JR talked to a stray dog.

There's nothing you know about any of these statements that prove them to be a lie at the time they were written. Maybe later, after the killer is around, we'll know what was a lie and what wasn't. Meantime, you've no idea what is truth or lie here. You can only guess.

OK so it seems to you the best thing to do is assume the RN to be disinformation and a distration from the truth. There isn't really anything to base your assumption on, except maybe the notion that RDI...

The Mackle RN has the author truthfully describing the container used for his victim, and later provided truthful information that allowed LE to locate her. The LaMarca RN has the author explaining how he's broke and needs money.
 
  • #77
Actually, the RN is a lie because she wasn't really kidnapped. Like I said...
 
  • #78
Actually, the RN is a lie because she wasn't really kidnapped. Like I said...

Hope you don't mind if I show how this is wrong, because we don't know anything about what the plan was at the time the intruder wrote the note. If maybe you were to break away from the RDI pack, and actually consider the physical evidence for a change. The male intruder DNA, blanket, wrist ligature, and mouth tape belie your many RDI 'stories', propaganda repeatedly stated as fact. Instead the physical evidence support an actual kidnapping in progress.
 
  • #79
Well plz show me the evidence you keep telling RDI'S about other than what I have read so far from the internet ..Now I haven't read no books and plz don't tell me to read the Ramsey's book..
 
  • #80
I still think the Ramsey ransom note was written with the intention of the killer to be in some sexual sadistic domination fantasy involving John and of course JonBenet the victim. The example ransom note was obviously written by some criminal minded person. He told the wealthy dad to dress in all white in December. Anyone could have seen him and known something was really wrong on that day.
 

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