Bible Back In Schools

[SieSie]

Just thought I'd give Maxine's view on this hot topic...

 

[deanws]

That Maxine cartoon is cute. :laugh:

 

[mindi77]

well, we went to several different churches as my dad was a minister (methodist) & he got moved around a lot. but yes i do know that all religions, all sects within religions, and all churches within sects within religions are different... but these days i prefer to just stay out of it all, and try to be a decent person with good morals without being involved in any of that mess!

however, i do appreciate that the church experience may be a good one for some people,, i just don't appreciate it when they try to force it upon others, or think non-religious people are evil, lost, or think that you can't be a decent person with good morals unless you are in their religion/church, etc....! that just ain't right!!
so many religious folks will say "only god can judge" but then they turn around and judge you, and it seems like they are getting worse.

I have to agree with you on that.

 

[Nova]

Reb,
I really don't know about heterosexuals who prefer anal sex. I would consider that perversion and like I said I would prefer people keep that kind of thing private. I really did not try to single out homosexuals. I am sorry if you took offense. If you don't mind me asking...are you gay? And if I have not offended and you wish to answer, were you ever sexually molested as a child? The reason I ask, is that I have never met a homosexual who was not sexually abused as a child. Never. My heart breaks for the homosexual. My heart breaks for the girls who strip and prostitute..because I find the same thing. Adults who were abused as children. And no one should judge...because they were not required to walk in those shoes. God Bless.

Ella, I am a gay male. I was never molested as a child. Nor was my partner of almost 29 years. Nor was my gay brother.

Of course, I haven't polled every gay man I know, but I can't think of a one who ever mentioned being abused as a child.

I promise you your notion of molestation as a universal gay experience is simply incorrect.

I don't know about prostitutes.

As for your pseudo-scientific evidence on the supposed dangers of gay sex, your sources neglect to mention (a) that many, even most of the same dangers also attend to vaginal intercourse (if you think fecal bacteria is found only in the anus, I have some bad news for you); and (b) that many of the dangers listed stem from having many partners, which ought to be an argument FOR gay marriage, not against.

 

[mindi77]

Ella, I am a gay male. I was never molested as a child. Nor was my partner of almost 29 years. Nor was my gay brother.

Of course, I haven't polled every gay man I know, but I can't think of a one who ever mentioned being abused as a child.

I promise you your notion of molestation as a universal gay experience is simply incorrect.

I don't know about prostitutes.

As for your pseudo-scientific evidence on the supposed dangers of gay sex, your sources neglect to mention (a) that many, even most of the same dangers also attend to vaginal intercourse (if you think fecal bacteria is found only in the anus, I have some bad news for you); and (b) that many of the dangers listed stem from having many partners, which ought to be an argument FOR gay marriage, not against.

I have to agree with you on that, well except for being a gay male...I'm female. I have to say that one of my best friends was a stripper for 10 years and she was never molested, her parents are still married and she and her dad have a great relationship. I was molested and I am neither gay, or a stripper or a prostitute. Do I think that alot of strippers and prostitutes have been molested sure some have just like alot of people who don't go into those type of buisnesses. I believe people are born gay and that they wouldn't just choose to do it to make people mad, or to have there family not want anything to do with them.

I don't think it is my buisness to say who does or doesn't get married....straight or gay. It doesn't have anything to do with me, it is there lives.


Sorry....didn't mean to post a book...lol

 

[Mr. E]

I just wanted to point out, and I think someone else may have already done this, that anal sex isn't an exclusively homosexual act.

I actually have a lot of gay friends (no stripper or prostitute friends, so I couldn't on that). I guess it's a stereotype, but my husband and children and I are very involved in the theater, so . . . Anyway, I've never had any of my gay friends tell me they were molested and that's why they were gay. I have had some of them tell me they knew they were gay when they were children.

On the other hand, being molested as a child is a very personal bit of information, isn't it? Not something said casually at a cast party. You'd have to be a very open person or a counselor or something to have every gay person you've known tell you something so deeply private.

 

[dakini]

I just wanted to point out, and I think someone else may have already done this, that anal sex isn't an exclusively homosexual act.

I actually have a lot of gay friends (no stripper or prostitute friends, so I couldn't on that). I guess it's a stereotype, but my husband and children and I are very involved in the theater, so . . . Anyway, I've never had any of my gay friends tell me they were molested and that's why they were gay. I have had some of them tell me they knew they were gay when they were children.

On the other hand, being molested as a child is a very personal bit of information, isn't it? Not something said casually at a cast party. You'd have to be a very open person or a counselor or something to have every gay person you've known tell you something so deeply private.

Thanks, Nova, Mindi, Mr E, IrishMist,

It always helps to be able to "keep going" when others say things I feel but are too weary to respond to.

My dad was gay and was in the closet. Those days of having to stay in the closet are happily coming to an end. Gay people feel freer to choose to live more openly and as people see more of us being just like them these tired old stereotypes dissolve. (to name a few: gays are inherently "immoral", "unhealthy", "damaged" by being molested and "out to get your children" to convert to homosexuality. It is my experience that those with a "convert agenda" are my dear Christian friends lol.

So, thank all of you who step up to the plate, with great questions and thoughtful insights and allow me to catch my breath.

My woman life companion, my lover and friend of 21 years this Valentine's day 2006( who I would marry her if I had the legal right) for nearly 21 years met at a Buddhist meditation retreat.

We both grew up in Irish Catholic families. Clearly, there are "gay genes" in my family. I was not raised to be gay. Niether my partner nor I were molested. We both had religion classes every day in school, we both went to Catholic schools.

Before this thread became about "gays are inherently unhealthy" we were discussing whether we think the Bible should be taught in the schools?

This is a great topic. I love to talk about what does freedom of expression, freedom of Religion and Separation of Church and State mean to you?

Then it happened that the topic changed. It seemed to me because some posters would like their interpretation of the Bible's teachings on morality taught in the schools rather than studying the Bible as history and sociology and its contribution to civilization.

So its difficult for me to see how this will really work for all to benefit when the discussion becomes more about who's values have dominance.

Take the example of the mischief makers, Jeryy Falwell or Pat Robertson, they make lots of noise and stir up division with silly things like "tinky winky" and "spongebobsquarepants" conspiracies to shut down Christmas. Then they sit back, collect money, and build Regent University, a place designed to train the "Regents" of the Christian Nation they seek to establish. ( believe or not they think George Bush is the first "Regent" to ascend)

One would think this would make Christians in their right minds denounce these two. To their credit, the Methodists and a couple other denominations that are on the Dominionist Movements hit list are writing about this.

I have said before I have mixed feeling about the Bible being taught in the public schools.

For all the Christians who follow the path of Christ and come to different conclusions about their neighbors, even the gay ones, thank you. I know you see us as no different from yourselves. You know we want to be happy just like you do. We want to live in peace.

We want "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" and to be full citizens of the United States, not second class ones.

 

[shadowangel]

Dakini, we're agreeing again, something is very wrong here.....:angel:

 

[Maral]

Dakini,
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[csds703]

Dakini

Once again you have stated the REAL issues involved with bringing bible study to the classroom. If learning about the history of different religions were the only agenda then there would be no problem. Unfortunately, it has become obvious that SOME Christian groups have made it their mission to turn the US into a Christian country. The Falwells and the Robertsons of the world have a very dangerous agenda. They pray on insecurities and prejudices causing further divisions amongst different religious groups. The world just buried a pope with a very different message. He embraced all people. He understood his role as a religious leader. How people chose to worship or not to worhip is their business. Who people choose to love is their business. The real issue is, this is America and all of us should be free to persue whatever lifestyles we choose as long as we are not hurting others.

 

[reb]

WOW!! every single post today has been brilliant!! bravo guys!!

nova- i was going to say the same thing, but didn't have the energy to get even further into that subject!! that is so true,, you could easily say that vaginal sex can also be dangerous, it can lead to uterine cancer, etc. etc... whatever sex you are having, it makes all the difference if people are clean about it.

dakini & csds-- yes it is scary this whole neo-radical "we ARE a christian nation" movement... sure, it says "in god we trust" everywhere... however, the bill of right clearly states that: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

however-- to be fair, in a way i CAN see their point of view,, because i do have this not-too-distant-future vision of mosques springing up everywhere, and muslims running for office, that to me is even more frightening. personally, i don't care for their religion either. if all religions could live here in peace, and everything would be rainbows and butterflies, that would be wonderful. but religions get weird and fanatical and violent, and unfortunately that's just not the reality. (also i would not like to be shot for not wearing a burka.) so, i can kind of understand their fear of losing ground, and watching this nation end up like a "tower of babel".

anyway, everyone had such great points, and ella- it just seems like you have some very skewed logic.

(of course you could also say i do too, for that comment about muslims taking over the country-- but i really could see that happening-- and i don't think my fears are all that ungrounded, seeing as i don't care for ANY religions. it's one thing to be tolerant towards people who want to live in peace with you, it's another thing to be tolerant to people who would be happy to take over your home country if they could... and i'm sure i'm not the only one struggling with this modern american dilemma. but that's a whole 'nother issue.)

 

[dakini]

"The barriers used to be quite distinct between church and state but there has been a deliberate breaking down of those barriers in the last few years."

Sentiment of former President Jimmy Carter who's recent book has been called a biting political commentary. His perspective in"Our Endangered Values : Americas Moral Crisis"

 

[dakini]

if all religions could live here in peace, and everything would be rainbows and butterflies, that would be wonderful. but religions get weird and fanatical and violent, and unfortunately that's just not the reality.

Reb-

Did you ever see the Simpsons episode where Lisa gets her way and her wish for world peace comes true with rainbows and butterflies?
That's what your post made me think of lol.

The whole point of terrorism is to make fear, divide and conquer. Whether the terrorist uses rhetoric,psycholgical tactics and propaganda or actual acts of violence.

Prior to 9/11, American Muslims lived in harmony with other Americans. Some forces within our country are opportunists with agendas all their own and have jumped on the terrorist attacks to further divide Americans and make them feel that the religion of Islam in and of itself is evil and to be feared.

Militant fundamentalism is on the rise. Did you happen to see PBS news interviewing a panel of Muslims? They say they are being bombarded by extremists on the right of their faith to try and take over their mosques just like the Methodists say they are being pressured and bombarded by right wing extremists who call themselves "Christians".

There are "Taliban" wings in many faiths, but they do not represent the wisdom and love teachings of these great world religions. One has to make a distinction and not lump them all together.

Extremism and terror tactics are what we have a common obligation as citizens to unite in countrerinig IMO. That's why militantism is the threat, not the religions themselves and why starting a war in Iraq was so dangerous.

It is so hard to stay on the topic of the Bible being taught in the schools without the state of the world entering into it. There is an interdependence.

We are all still suffering from 9/11. Let's all just get back where we can control something! Whether its bringing the Bible back or whatever.

The post traumatic stress of that event affects us all equally and just wears different faces. IMO of course.

 

[Nova]

I have to agree with you on that, well except for being a gay male...I'm female. I have to say that one of my best friends was a stripper for 10 years and she was never molested, her parents are still married and she and her dad have a great relationship. I was molested and I am neither gay, or a stripper or a prostitute. Do I think that alot of strippers and prostitutes have been molested sure some have just like alot of people who don't go into those type of buisnesses. I believe people are born gay and that they wouldn't just choose to do it to make people mad, or to have there family not want anything to do with them.

I don't think it is my buisness to say who does or doesn't get married....straight or gay. It doesn't have anything to do with me, it is there lives.


Sorry....didn't mean to post a book...lol

No, Mindi, I appreciate the info. I have read studies that claim sex workers tend to have molestation in their background, but such surveys are extremely problematic if only because it's difficult to get a "representative sampling" from a minority that feels threatened.

What's funny (sort of) about the argument that molestation causes gayness, is that gay bashers have long claimed being molestation caused their homophobia. So it seems molestation either makes one gay or a gay-hater...

 

[Nova]

I just wanted to point out, and I think someone else may have already done this, that anal sex isn't an exclusively homosexual act.

I actually have a lot of gay friends (no stripper or prostitute friends, so I couldn't on that). I guess it's a stereotype, but my husband and children and I are very involved in the theater, so . . . Anyway, I've never had any of my gay friends tell me they were molested and that's why they were gay. I have had some of them tell me they knew they were gay when they were children.

On the other hand, being molested as a child is a very personal bit of information, isn't it? Not something said casually at a cast party. You'd have to be a very open person or a counselor or something to have every gay person you've known tell you something so deeply private.

You are absolutely right, Mr. E, and I tried to qualify my remarks on the ground that some of my friends may have been molested and simply chose never to mention it. HOWEVER, we're talking a lot of gay people I've known well over the years. In many cases, we spoke of things equally intimate. Somehow, if being molested were so universal, I think I would have heard.

(And BTW, sometimes a cliche is a cliche because it's true. For several reasons but probably most importantly because we are accepted there, a lot of gay people work in the theater.)

 

[Nova]

For what it's worth, my adopted home town held it's Holiday Parade last night, The Festival of Lights. Churchs had floats, gay groups had floats, Jewish organizations had floats. The entire town turned out to cheer, including crowds of children, many of them the children of gay couples (PS being over 50% gay).

So far, no reports of violence, religious terrorism or people turned gay against their will.

It can be done.

 

[reb]

<So far, no reports of violence, religious terrorism or people turned gay against their will>

:laugh::laugh::laugh:!!!!

btw, where is PS??

 

[IrishMist]

So far, no reports of violence, religious terrorism or people turned gay against their will.

What, you guys aren't doing the "sign up today and get a free toaster" campaign anymore??

 

[Nova]

<So far, no reports of violence, religious terrorism or people turned gay against their will>

:laugh::laugh::laugh:!!!!

btw, where is PS??

Palm Springs is a desert resort town about an hour and a half East of Los Angeles. Its nickname is "Playground of the Stars," but that was more true in the 40s and 50s. Still, I bumped into Billy Crudup and Claire Danes at the Gay Pride Parade last month.

 

[Nova]

What, you guys aren't doing the "sign up today and get a free toaster" campaign anymore??

Oh, no, we had to stop. It's amazing what folks will do for a toaster!