Bosma Murder Trial 03.08.16 - Day 21

[SnooperDuper]

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 32s33 seconds ago
Can take 10-20 minutes for particles to settle. Pillay asking if activity following discharge can affect distribution. Gerard says yes.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 15s15 seconds ago
If there is wind or people moving, can affect settlement of GSR.

 

[SnooperDuper]

They may not be able to tell who the shooter is from GSR, but DM had pics of the gun on his computer dated prior to MS, and DM ended up with the gun after the crime (until he was arrested and MS sought to sell or hide it - on DM's behalf?)

In my mind it is DM's gun, he used it, and he was the shooter.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I could see that as well. But picture how bent around his arm would have to be in order to avoid there being some angle towards the back seat. Definitely plausible though. Overall the crown seems to be emphasizing that neither blood spatter or GSR experts can place the shooter....keeping the playing field level between the two accused. MOO

And just as I post my response I see the testimony that said the GSR on the driver's side was in the front and rear. Definitely supports a shot being fired from an angle. Back seat makes ore sense now. MOO

How can that "definitely support" anything when the expert opines it can't?

 

[Ontario Mom]

They may not be able to tell who the shooter is from GSR, but DM had pics of the gun on his computer dated prior to MS, and DM ended up with the gun after the crime (until he was arrested and MS sought to sell or hide it - on DM's behalf?)

In my mind it is DM's gun, he used it, and he was the shooter.

DM's gun but did he somehow talk MS into doing the actual shooting? Who knows. They're both vermin.

 

[Kamille]

Mar 8 2016 10:44 AM
"If a vehicle was cleaned, the process of cleaning can affect where gunshot residue particles are found?" Pillay asks. Gerard says yes - it's possible the could be removed or moved around.
Adam Carter

Mar 8 2016 10:45 AM
Gerard says he doesn't know how the GSR particle got into the toolbox.

Mar 8 2016 10:46 AM
"It either fell directly in or it was transferred in on an object or a person's hands," Gerard says.

Mar 8 2016 10:50 AM
"You have no way of determining if a firearm was ever near that toolbox?" Pillay asks. "It's either a firearm or some other object that transferred the particles in," Jones says.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 1m1 minute ago
#Millard lawyer is asking about whether activity can disrupt where dust-like gunshot particles disperse. It can. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
Contact can transfer particles from surface to surface. In smooth surface like glass, hills/valleys at micron level for GSR to settle in.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 1m1 minute ago
Pillay asks about how particles might move--gust of wind, open windows, a cleanup could all potentially move/remove particles, Getard agrees

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 41s42 seconds ago
Back to toolbox. GSR either fell in or was transferred in.

 

[RandomName479]

I think both the blood spatter evidence and GSR evidence are being used to prove a gun was fired and TB was shot in the passenger seat. IMO even the experts are saying they can't say where the shot came from.....so many factors affecting both blood and GSR.....we can speculate all we want....but as of now, evidence hasn't been shown to say where the shot came from. MOO

 

[DeepWoodsOff]

How can that "definitely support" anything when the expert opines it can't?

Supports in my mind, not theirs. Hence my incessant Mooing. And it appears the experts are definitely staying away from making any official claims as to what they think happened. That way the defense can't poke holes.

 

[Kamille]

I could see that as well. But picture how bent around his arm would have to be in order to avoid there being some angle towards the back seat. Definitely plausible though. Overall the crown seems to be emphasizing that neither blood spatter or GSR experts can place the shooter....keeping the playing field level between the two accused. MOO

And just as I post my response I see the testimony that said the GSR on the driver's side was in the front and rear. Definitely supports a shot being fired from an angle. Back seat makes ore sense now. MOO

Just jumping off your post...

Picture of the interior of a 2006 Dodge Ram 3500 to look at the angles

http://www.fourwheeler.com/project-vehicles/131-0601-2006-dodge-ram-mega-cab-4x4/

http://image.trucktrend.com/f/85244...006_dodge_ram_mega_cab+rear_interior_view.jpg

 

[SnooperDuper]

DM's gun but did he somehow talk MS into doing the actual shooting? Who knows. They're both vermin.

I'm a bit confused at how people want to tag MS as the shooter. This seems to be DM's show. Even if MS sat there like a toad, he's still guilty of not stopping the attack, not going to the police immediately afterwards, and coming for show and tell at the hangar afterwards as if the truck and DM were nothing to avoid. I don't think MS did anything other than offer immoral support, but he's still guilty as hell.

 

[SnooperDuper]

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 2m2 minutes ago
Now onto toolbox. Pillay suggests there are many many scenarios as to how particle could end up on the tray. Gerard agrees. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 2m2 minutes ago
Someone with GSR on hands could transfer to an object, then that object put in toolbox could transfer particles.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 47s47 seconds ago
Dungey now up. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 49s49 seconds ago
No way of determining how long GSR was in toolbox or if gun was ever in toolbox. Pillay done, now it's Dungey for Smich.

 

[JuneBug67]

The crown is clearly either limited by the evidence or strategically not seeking to make one the shooter over the other. As tempting as it is to try to extrapolate the facts to a specific shooter, I have to remind myself that I have no justification to substitute my judgement or 'common sense' for that of the expert witnesses. My gut says it was Millard, but that and 5 cents will get you a ju-jube. Perhaps the defence cases will offer expert testimony that suggests one or the other. It's interesting to note that both Dungey and the crown have offered the only concrete hypothetical, and they both implied a shot from the drivers side that broke out the passenger window. It's kind of a no-brainer possibility though, which doesn't give it the weight of evidence.

 

[Kamille]

Mar 8 2016 10:50 AM
Smich's lawyer Thomas Dungey now cross examining.

Mar 8 2016 10:52 AM
Dungey asking if the greatest concentration of GSR was found near the front passenger seat, especially in a situation where the driver was the one shooting the front passenger. "Therefore you would find the greatest amount of concentration hitting the passenger seat," Dungey says.

Mar 8 2016 10:53 AM
Pillay objects, says it's important to put on the record that Dungey is putting a hypothetical situation to the witness.

Mar 8 2016 10:54 AM
Dungey again mentions a Walther PPK gun as a "hypothetical."

Mar 8 2016 10:55 AM
Dungey asking questions about how the gun being held might influence the GSR. Gerard says he's not qualified to answer that, but a firearms expert could.

Mar 8 2016 10:59 AM
Gerard says that in a semi automatic, a secondary source of GSR can be where the shell casing is ejected. Dungey asks if that secondary source could account for the 26 particles found on driver's side roof liner. "It's really difficult to say from these numbers if that's what we're seeing here," Gerard responds.

Mar 8 2016 11:00 AM
Dungey now asking about GSR being found "in a satchel." "If that satchel was washed, it would get rid of the gunshot residue wouldn't it?" he asks. Gerard says that's possible, if it's washed thoroughly.

Mar 8 2016 11:00 AM
A satchel has been brought up several times over the course of the trial. One that was found in a washing machine at Millard's home was seized.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 2m2 minutes ago
When GSR comes out of muzzle it comes out as cone, spreading as it goes. Dungey asks about driver shooting passenger.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 35s36 seconds ago
Gerard says particles may deflect up to ceiling and on seat. Most would be on victim. Some could end up on ceiling behind passenger.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I'm a bit confused at how people want to tag MS as the shooter. This seems to be DM's show. Even if MS sat there like a toad, he's still guilty of not stopping the attack, not going to the police immediately afterwards, and coming for show and tell at the hangar afterwards as if the truck and DM were nothing to avoid. I don't think MS did anything other than offer immoral support, but he's still guilty as hell.

I'm a bit confused as to why folks want to tag him as well. I've always thought it was DM even before testimony and evidence. Now I'm just frustrated that even the spatter and GSR experts can't say which direction the bullet came from. I agree with everything else you've said about MS except it's not toad, it's fish. Quiet like a fish, according to Igor.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
Pillay wants gestures of Dungey to be described on record. He'd uses left hand as gun...Gerard said he can't speak to specific guns.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 28s29 seconds ago
Dungey asking about .380 Walther jury has seen from photos found on Millard computer.

 

[Kamille]

They may not be able to tell who the shooter is from GSR, but DM had pics of the gun on his computer dated prior to MS, and DM ended up with the gun after the crime (until he was arrested and MS sought to sell or hide it - on DM's behalf?)

In my mind it is DM's gun, he used it, and he was the shooter.

Bottom line is that none of the Crown experts are going to say where the gun was shot from. The Crown's position on this is that because neither of them came forward at the time (or anytime after) to claim the other did the shooting, the trial will go forward as it is not possible to tell, it was premeditated and they are both responsible for the shooting and the murder.

The defense will likely each make a case the the other one did it. The jury will then have to decide if they believe either defense or if they agree with the Crown that it doesn't matter, it was a premeditated act and they are both equally responsible.

MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 52s53 seconds ago
Gerard says he's not a firearm expert. Pillay objects to Gerard speculating. Judge allows him to explain an ejection port.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 24s24 seconds ago View translation
Ejection port can disperse particles in a semi-automatic. #Bosma

 

[ArianeEmory]

picture this scenario, he leans up against rear of seat grabs tim with right hand around neck uses his left hand straight on at Tim's head..he's pretty much leaning in the front seat.

Ugh, not to give any excuse to DM/MS, but I'm suddenly picturing a comedy of errors a la Pulp Fiction where the gun goes off accidentally.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 54s54 seconds ago
#Smich lawyer Dungey asks about 2nd largest concentration of gunshot, above driver seat. Does it mean driver was shooter? Not with certainty

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 31s31 seconds ago
Dungey asks if discharged firearm put in satchel, could GSR be found in satchel? Yes. If satchel washed? Could reduce/eliminate particles.