Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #12

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  • #121
You are correct

"The Crown intends to prove that on this date in the late evening hours, Tim Bosma was killed in his truck, shot by the two accused at close range, while on a test drive with his truck; his body then incinerated hours later by the two accused."

The question for me is what do they need to prove first degree in this trial? And whatever it is, can we look at, and discuss the evidence supporting that intention?

I am not trying to take a side, but challenge evidence, and the speculation that may be a leap for fair justice. Nothing would please me more than proving first degree. whatever angle the crown may be using to prove it. As long as the judgement criteria meets the spirit of our laws.


MOO

Well other than the death occurred during a forcible confinement (TB never exited that vehicle of his own free will) there is the fact that neither accused has offered up any plausible explanation to LE at the time of the killing or even at the time of their subsequent arrests, without benefit of discovery, that indicates the other was absolutely responsible for the killing. So the default seems to be that each is also capable (2 guns?) of having committed this murder simultaneously. And if that is not enough, there is also evidence that the murder may have been premeditated by both of them

3 strikes and you're out?

MOO
 
  • #122
I don't want to gross anybody out or horrify them any more than they already are, but hear me out.

A lot of people here that have followed the evidence closely have come to the conclusion that this was a planned murder. Certainly the preparation chatter about the generator, the mission prep in Kitchener, and the fireside furniture/sausage roast texts certainly indicate that the Eliminator was planned to be used. Then we have the bloody mess inside the car and Millard's request to bring tape. This would indicate that TB was to be taken hostage and restrained, and as many believe, a struggle took place in the truck (or at least an attempt to escape) and he was shot, not according to plan. My question then becomes, what was the original plan? The obvious answer would be a drive to the farm, a bullet to the head, then incineration. I wonder if someone would want to fire a gun in the middle of the night, then sit around for hours while the Eliminator did its work. Then I the of the "Orange guy". Could it have been a sedative? Could the plan have been to burn TB alive? Normally I'd think that was reaching, but having seen Smich's video project, Millard's bleeding eye photo, and the way that all of them had a callous disregard for life, I wonder if this was there perverse original plan.

In some ways Im glad all that blood evidence was found. If all they'd found was that tooth in the incinerator, I don't think I'd ever sleep right again.
My mind fears more gross things too because of MS wanting Duct tape AND because of the video(i have not watched it, I somehow seen a snippet, i know it's fake, but i can't bring myself to watch anymore then i have) I think i would loose my mind. P.S. sorry again, i don't capitalize my letter i's much- i hate typing. Makes me worry a little bit that you all are annoyed by it. sorry
 
  • #123
DM believing that he'd be a better dad in prison than most men on the outside? This guy is still obviously toking in jail. Cracks me up to think that DM actually believed that a young, good looking, well educated woman like CN would actually be interested in procreating with a guy locked up for life and sharing romantic evenings in the prison trailer. This guy is so insane. MOO
Agree with everything here except i think she IS still interested in him.
 
  • #124
I still think CN is under his spell.....she has not cooperated AT ALL with LE or the Crown and part of it may be CYA mode, I think there is more to it. She wanted to be this guy's one and only.....started dating him while he was engaged to someone else.....used her "kinks" to land in his numero uno spot (although he clearly kept others on the side....she was his main gf at the time of the murder). She stopped communicating with him when she was arrested, not when she "realized" there was a no contact order. She saved his letters for sentimental reasons. She is on the stand bragging about their sexual conquests.....she is still being his loyal gf who has her story straight and can't remember anything that can't be proven and knows nothing. She is not telling the whole story. MOO
Yes, what RandomName479 says here so much better than I.:)
 
  • #125
Agree with everything here except i think she IS still interested in him.

Her statements in court and her actions don't reflect this IMHO.
 
  • #126
Yes, what RandoemName479 says here so much better than I.:)

She does not seem to hold back from talking about DM's actions. Her lack of memory has only really been around things that would incriminate her. She is most definitely not telling the whole story but it's about saving herself. I am sure for some time after his arrest, she was still in love with him or at least the idea of it all and it went way too far for her to see a way to get herself out of it. IMO, what she is saying and remembering are not things that are showing loyalty to DM. She can't tell a different story at this trial about knowing full well about the murder and the plan that night and then say she didn't know anything at her own trial. The evidence in this trial can't be used in her trial but it can be used to impeach her.
 
  • #127
You are correct

"The Crown intends to prove that on this date in the late evening hours, Tim Bosma was killed in his truck, shot by the two accused at close range, while on a test drive with his truck; his body then incinerated hours later by the two accused."

The question for me is what do they need to prove first degree in this trial? And whatever it is, can we look at, and discuss the evidence supporting that intention?

I am not trying to take a side, but challenge evidence, and the speculation that may be a leap for fair justice. Nothing would please me more than proving first degree. whatever angle the crown may be using to prove it. As long as the judgement criteria meets the spirit of our laws.


MOO


"The Crown intends to prove that on this date in the late evening hours, Tim Bosma was killed in his truck, shot by the two accused at close range, while on a test drive with his truck; his body then incinerated hours later by the two accused."


If that's all that's needed:

'On this date in the late evening hours': proven by Mrs. Bosma's testimony and cell pings
'Tim Bosma was killed in his truck': Blood spatter, DNA, GSR and casing
'shot by the two accused at close range' blood spatter, GSR, casing, and shattered passenger window
'while on a test drive with his truck': testimony of AM re ads and plan to steal; Mrs. Bosma's testimony that Tim left on test drive
'his body then incinerated hours later by the two accuseds': neither accused (so far) have denied being on the test drive; ashes, small bone and DNA, located on DM's farm
 
  • #128
This makes sense. I am certain that the lawyer MB spoke to told her exactly what she could and couldn't do regarding the trailer. CN wiping MB's prints off the trailer wouldn't implicate MB I imagine?


It's possible that there never were any of MB's finger prints on the trailer and that MB wasn't involved in that seedy tale. It could be that CN made up that story out of whole cloth to hide the fact that she was wiping DM's prints.
 
  • #129
Because he's feeding her a line of crap. He's a poor rich kid that got tied up with a drug addict. Now he's in jail and has realized his undying love for her. And can you do a couple of felonies for me?
Agreed. At that point he would have told CN whatever he thought would manipulate her into doing what he needed her to do. Telling him he was the murderer could have easily turned her away from him very quickly, and he saw her as his only hope to get out.
 
  • #130
She's an odd bird. I get why she related the bit about the car ride sex act, I just don't get why she felt the need to say she banged him when she got home and when he got up a few hours later. Those details could have easily been left out and nobody would be the wiser, yet she willingly puts it out there. Almost like she's bragging about it.

In all honesty, I think it's an ego thing, and this was her was of flipping the proverbial bird at LW2 and the person we know only as 'Jenn'(but can draw conclusions of whom it was) this was her way of saying, you may have been with him once in awhile, but I was with him way more often.
 
  • #131
I've been searching for an actual judge's decision tree (flow chart) on first degree murder and can't locate one. Here's a post of mine from a couple of years ago wrt to how a judge in the Mark Grant trial instructed a jury to consider forcible confinement.

from:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...scussion-and-Theories-3&p=9958570#post9958570

Although the link in the above post was to an opinion piece, the article was written by a crime/justice reporter with the Winnipeg Free Press (previously with Sun media and the CBC).

ETA: link to cached article by Jim Turner:
https://webcache.googleusercontent....cond-degree-murder/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
 
  • #132
She does not seem to hold back from talking about DM's actions. Her lack of memory has only really been around things that would incriminate her. She is most definitely not telling the whole story but it's about saving herself. I am sure for some time after his arrest, she was still in love with him or at least the idea of it all and it went way too far for her to see a way to get herself out of it. IMO, what she is saying and remembering are not things that are showing loyalty to DM. She can't tell a different story at this trial about knowing full well about the murder and the plan that night and then say she didn't know anything at her own trial. The evidence in this trial can't be used in her trial but it can be used to impeach her.
So then, in what ways has she or in what ways is she able to "throw him under the bus" without incriminating herself?
 
  • #133
This is why I think a lawyer helped. I don't know how Hamilton jails work, but find it hard to believe it's any differnt then other jails. You go in, show ID, get buzzed through a steal door, take a seat and talk on phones with glass between visitor and inmate. Mommy's don't have special privilege! My mother didn't either and dad was in for something supid, not murder! The only way mommy rabbit could pass CN'S letters directly, would be for DM to read them up against the glass.

I haven't made it past this post yet, so not sure if anyone that's familiar with Hamilton jail answered this yet. Sorry in advance as I read on :)
Looking back over the stuff from yesterday, IIRC, CN also had phone calls with DM. In that case, IMHO, MB must have made the call and passed the phone to DM or CN said she was someone else. Nice little set up when you have a mother willing to break the law for you.

Geesh!!! Mom!!!! Stop enabling this guy!!! BTW, IMHO, DM has played his mommy card perfectly- LE have been soft on MB, a Jury would be sympathetic. MB was DM's super secret agent- carrying letters, keeping the g/f emotionally invested in DM, keeping SS, LW1 & LW2 onside- etc etc. We'll see how that all works out once he's earned himself "dangerous offender" status and has gone away for life. None of these people will give him a second thought- it'll just be DM, MB and a bunch of jail house groupies looking to have sex with a psychopath in a trailer. MOO
 
  • #134
In all honesty, I think it's an ego thing, and this was her was of flipping the proverbial bird at LW2 and the person we know only as 'Jenn'(but can draw conclusions of whom it was) this was her way of saying, you may have been with him once in awhile, but I was with him way more often.
This also is a side of the story that "endears" her to DM, gives him some bragging rights. as stupid as it is <modsnip >
 
  • #135
She does not seem to hold back from talking about DM's actions. Her lack of memory has only really been around things that would incriminate her. She is most definitely not telling the whole story but it's about saving herself. I am sure for some time after his arrest, she was still in love with him or at least the idea of it all and it went way too far for her to see a way to get herself out of it. IMO, what she is saying and remembering are not things that are showing loyalty to DM. She can't tell a different story at this trial about knowing full well about the murder and the plan that night and then say she didn't know anything at her own trial. The evidence in this trial can't be used in her trial but it can be used to impeach her.

She's afraid to show she was in love with the entire concept of him, and she really did know the kind of person he was, IMO.

If she wasn't eating up what he was feeding her, she wouldn't have given him the encouragement to go on about his love and his needs. She would have shut him down. The letters wouldn't have even got to the point that DM was encouraging her to break the law again and again, if she weren't receptive to hearing that. MB offered some pretty poor guidance too. MB encouraged the communication between CN and DM.

Great article on parents' struggles to accept (or not accept) the guilt of their children:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...rents-despite-hard-proof-believe-hes-innocent
 
  • #136
Wiping her own prints isn't helping Millard at all. Now if she said they went back to wipe Dell's prints from the locks....

See what they did there ;)

There would be no point to wiping DM's prints from the trailer locks. The reason was it is his own property ever since he bought it (or stolen it) and his prints would be all over it anyway.
Pointless. It would be the same as my sons wiping my prints from my walker if I had committed a crime with that and was currently in jail.
 
  • #137
There would be no point to wiping DM's prints from the trailer locks. The reason was it is his own property ever since he bought it (or stolen it) and his prints would be all over it anyway.
Pointless. It would be the same as wiping my prints from my walker if I had committed a crime with that.

Right! I really must learn to think before I type. :blushing:
 
  • #138
There would be no point to wiping DM's prints from the trailer locks. The reason was it is his own property ever since he bought it (or stolen it) and his prints would be all over it anyway.
Pointless. It would be the same as my sons wiping my prints from my walker if I had committed a crime with that and was currently in jail.

Except there was a stolen truck locked in it? So assuming that the last person who locked it up knew that....

I think it was to wipe CN's prints from the locks. Because she knew she touched them without gloves. And keeping her out of the equation, even though MB knew at that point she was very much a part of it, was the priority at that time. And I also think MB touched them to see if she could get access out of curiosity. Especially the one on the back that required her to raise the garage door.

CN absolutely knew what was in the trailer and why the fact that it was locked up to prying eyes was so important. I'm sure she was tasked with checking those locks while he was unhitching it from his truck. And MB suspected, which is why she probably tried to get access.

MOO

ETA: And both would have touched it before the arrest, hence the panic after the arrest.
 
  • #139
I wonder how soon DM decided to blame MS? Could it have been before he was even arrested, hence his text to LW2 about being "set up by someone at work"? It would explain why CN became his evidence-tampering wingman in place of MS in the final 24 hours.
 
  • #140
I wonder how soon DM decided to blame MS? Could it have been before he was even arrested, hence his text to LW2 about being "set up by someone at work"? It would explain why CN became his evidence-tampering wingman in place of MS in the final 24 hours.

I have a feeling TD is very much going to exploit the fact he didn't get MS to join him that night for the evidence cleanup. Clearly if MS should want to equally be trying to cover evidence that night knowing he was in trouble, and likely would never have refused Dell if asked.
 
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