Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #12

[mozzagirl]

I have a thought on why it feels like premeditated murder to me. Even just going off AM's statement saying DM asked him "should I steal the truck from the a**hole or the nice guy?". He was putting too much thought into which person to steal from. Was he having a moral dilemma not so much about which truck to take (as they were identical from what I understand) but which person's life to take?

The reason I am thinking this too is he was worried about AM's statement and wanting it changed just to "which truck should I buy?" and having nothing to do with the personal characterizations of the owners.

DM didn't seem to have morals about much in life but I really feel like his question to AM was some kind of moral dilemma to him about which person to murder?

Like many have said, if DM just wanted to steal a truck he could have gone and found one in the cover of darkness and taken it. For some reason this was the first time he stole something with the owner present and that person ends up dead? Not a coincidence to me.

All MOO.

 

[mozzagirl]

Of course I can't find where I read this (it was MSM) but apparently Leitch is only halfway through the stack of letters found from DM to CN. As the letters went on yesterday, DM's writing and requests seem to get more and more desperate IMO. It will be scary/interesting to see how much more he asks her to do and reveals to her as they continue reading the letters on Monday.

I will try find the MSM source I read that on and if I do I will post it here.

ETA: I found the source.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6...al-millard-s-ego-is-healthy-even-behind-bars/
Neatly printed in pencil, pages and pages of letters from Millard to Noudga, were shown on screens around the courtroom while assistant Crown attorney Tony Leitch read each one into the record Thursday. By the end of the day, he'd made it halfway through the stack.
These letters, which have not yet been made an exhibit, begin in July 2013, two months after Tim's murder and Millard's subsequent arrest.

 

[Kamille]

Noudga testified that after dropping off the trailer in Kleinburg she and DM went straight to the Waterloo hangar. However, I think she's lying and they actually went somewhere else, such as Riverside, first. Here are some events from the timeline:

• Around 11:34pm (May 9) MB texted, "Dellen... what's happening? You got me concerned..." (Showing they had just left Kleinburg IMO)
• DM's phone pinged in Milton at 1:30am. (En route to the hangar IMO)
• CN's phone pinged in Milton at 3:43am. (En route back to Toronto IMO)
• They met Hagerman in Etobicoke sometime after 4am.
• They went back to Maple Gate and slept there.
• DM arrived back at the hangar for a meeting around 7:30am.

It takes an hour to drive to the hangar from Kleinburg, so they should have arrived at the hangar around 12:30am according to Noudga's testimony. However, DM's phone pinged in Milton at 1:30am. IMO this is when they were en route to the hangar, so they should have actually arrived there around 2am. If this is right, then there is a 1.5 hour gap in Noudga's testimony.

What they would have done during this time is anybody's guess, but one possibility is that they dumped ashes in the backyard of Riverside. To explain how this might have happened, rewind to earlier in the day when DM was at the farm with Smich. While there, he called SS and found out about the Crimestoppers call, which sent him into emergency "retooling for stormy weather" mode: clean out the incinerator (in his rush he was not thorough) and put the ashes in the truck (no time to dump them anywhere at the farm), speed back to the hangar to get TB's truck in the trailer, drop off Smich, pick up Noudga, ditch the trailer in Kleinburg, etc. By that point, he still had the ashes. Where was a discrete place to dump them off quickly (and possibly have a little escapade with Noudga)? Riverside.

From there, they headed to the hangar for 2am and switched the red pickup for the Yukon, then drove to the farm to move the incinerator. Then around 3:20am they left the farm to head back to Etobicoke to give Hagerman the toolbox.

There is testimony from RB I believe, that he saw both of them in the truck in the driveway that night (the 9th). He thought they might be making out. He went in the front door and they went in the side door. I'm not positive, would have to go back and check, but I think he said they were in the red truck. So there appears to have been a stop at Maplegate after dropping off the trailer and before heading to the hangar.

Not sure when DM picked up the toolbox but my guess would be that was likely the time since I doubt he drove the big trailer to Maplegate to get the toolbox before picking up CN. So at some point, while he was with her, he probably grabbed the toolbox from the house, right in front of her. If that is the case, it was probably transferred to the Yukon when they switched vehicles and she knew exactly what was going on with it and what was in it IMO.

I also think he gave her the DVR to hold when he picked her up before heading to MB's to drop off the trailer. There was no other time he was at her home that evening/next morning apparently and I don't think she took it there on a bus/taxi or in someone else's car who either picked her up or dropped her off after leaving his bed and his house on the 10th.

I guess LE couldn't get any more info out of either RB or AM about what was going on inside Maplegate that night and how long they were there. But if it was just a quick in and out to pack up the toolbox, that still leaves time for them to head to Riverside for whatever reason.

MOO

 

[Arnie M]

- references to preparing BBQ/generator
- telling Smich to bring a change of clothes
- post-mission actions -- if you went into a robbery and killing someone wasn't part of the plan, boy are they nonchalant about it. Doesn't really sound like a "successful mission" but his texts and how they behaved in front of of MM pointed to that.
- telling CN that if the mission to steal the truck goes as planned, it'll be an all nighter. Why? We know what they did all night. They cleaned the blood, burned the body.

There's probably others but those are off the top of my head.

You bring up a good point where DM says it would be an all nighter . To simply steal and hide the truck would only take an hour or so.

Not only that , once they had the truck they should have headed back East to Oakville + Etobicoke from whence they came

And if they were going to stash the truck at the Waterloo Hangar they would have headed north on hwy 52 & hwy 8 which is the direct route and would only take 45 minutes.

BUT NO !!!! .... they deviated West toward Brantford and Paris Road because they first had to get the incinerator from the farm

Plus it is obvious they "did not plan" to hide the stolen truck at the farm because they brought it and the incinerator to the hangar just like they had planned to do all along.

No matter how we look at it , the whole thing was planned that way from the start ... which makes it even more cold blooded.

 

[Dutchman]

I have a thought on why it feels like premeditated murder to me. Even just going off AM's statement saying DM asked him "should I steal the truck from the a**hole or the nice guy?". He was putting too much thought into which person to steal from. Was he having a moral dilemma not so much about which truck to take (as they were identical from what I understand) but which person's life to take?

The reason I am thinking this too is he was worried about AM's statement and wanting it changed just to "which truck should I buy?" and having nothing to do with the personal characterizations of the owners.

DM didn't seem to have morals about much in life but I really feel like his question to AM was some kind of moral dilemma to him about which person to murder?

Like many have said, if DM just wanted to steal a truck he could have gone and found one in the cover of darkness and taken it. For some reason this was the first time he stole something with the owner present and that person ends up dead? Not a coincidence to me.

All MOO.

Sigh....that's a sad thought.

 

[Miranda16]

I guess the only reason I can think of is because it may be that Smich knows that his own greasy finger prints are on that gun. Although.....I go back to ....there were two guns. They both had a gun. So ....

Horrible crime and such a tragedy.

Just joined WS, but following for a while. I've been wondering about that: it seems that they each had a gun, so where is the second gun? Were there actually 2 guns in the toolbox? DM texted '2' back in response to the MH question about guns didn't he? Did MS actually bury 2 guns? If not wouldn't the police have found a second one in one of the searched properties?

other things I'm wondering about:
- it seems to be a common theory that MS was driving the Yukon on the evening of the murder. Why is that? Couldn't it have been DM driving it? Any clues either way?
- I think the murder was planned and both knew in advance, but I agree with the posters who said that they could have originally been planning to force TB out of the truck at the farm (to avoid crime scene in the stolen truck)
- if they had gone ahead with an assault on IT during the first test drive, how would they have carried it out? It was during daylight hours (in a more populated area) and further from the farm. In that case wouldn't they have had to attack him in broad daylight in the truck?
- I assume that more of the gang besides MS could have realized that DM's crimes were escalating beyond just theft. E.g. I'm sure that SS knew more and maybe (likely?) CN. The incinerator could only have had a sinister purpose (this proves long-term planning of evil acts by DM and I assume it was used with LB?).
- who amongst the friends would believe that a truck would be stolen following a test drive? Wouldn't they have just stolen it at night if theft was the goal? To a thief would showing your face to the victim be worth it in exchange for verifying the operability of the truck in a test drive? Wouldn't it cause suspicion if a truck for sale was stolen after a test drive (while owner is away or asleep)? I'm Asking not because I think this was intended but because DM would need to be confident that the non-insiders would 'buy-in' to the theft idea (as SS pretended to do with the talk that DM 'bought' a hot truck)
- why did DM keep the murder weapon(s) initially after the murder? Why not convince MS to take them immediately if he wanted to frame him if necessary (maybe he was so confident of his invincibility that he wanted to retain them for the next 'mission'?
- was TB shot before or after they retrieved the Yukon? Good theories by posters that the Yukon driver was 'clean' and therefore TB was shot after MS and DM retrieved the Yukon, but I think it is a risky move for a driver to try to shoot a passenger at close quarters in the front seat. E.g. a desperate/brave victim could try to grab the gun arm. Maybe that's what happened and the shooter got the shot off fast, but it is a risky move for a shooter and I'm not sure that DM or MS would risk it. I would think that they wanted both to be present during the shooting to make sure that the victim could not turn the tables on a single assailant.
- they could have tried to order TB out of the truck, intending to restrain him with tape, retrieve the Yukon, and then bring him to the farm to murder him (as someone suggested) but he fought back at this stage before they could force him out of the truck? Maybe but wouldn't most people cooperate with a gunman, thinking that cooperation would get them released?

 

[brightii]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/christina-noudga

I had forgotten that CN had spent four months in jail after her arrest. I'd think that would be an experience she wouldn't want to repeat with an extended stay in prison if she is convicted, but I don't get a clear idea yet if she's mainly interested in protecting herself, or if she is still trying to protect DM as well, IMO. I'd love to be a mouse in the corner at CN's home while she and her parents are talking - I can't imagine they are okay with her decisions even if they are supporting her through her legal process, IMO. I can only imagine the deep shame CN's mother must have felt while listening to her daughter testify so brazenly and seemingly (to me) without a show of remorse or true regret, IMO. It's no wonder her father didn't show up, IMO. And all while CN's mum sat there in the midst of TB's wife and loved ones, TB's own mum and dad, along with a concerned public, IMO, and that had to have been a humbling and humiliating experience, IMO. I'm always projecting my own feelings and reactions on to the mothers and fathers in this case, I guess because I'm a parent, but I think I just have to accept that like many of the characters involved in the crime (and other crimes too) there are people on this planet who I'll never figure out.

All MOO.

 

[musicaljoke]

Yes, but she doesn't have to testify at her own trial. And based on her performance at this trial, no lawyer is going to put her on the stand at her own trial.

It's possible that DM may be called as a witness in CN's trial. If so, was that a motivation for her to forget nearly everything she ever knew about the crime? I'll scratch your back ...?

 

[mozzagirl]

IMO, DM pulled the trigger.

- DM is the only one we have seen evidence had bought a gun
- DM wanted the truck and did the research on it
- DM did the majority of the clean up and hiding of evidence

From what we know so far MS was in it for the money he would get paid when the "mission" was complete. MM made it sound like MS really relied on this money from missions so why would he risk bringing a gun to DM's truck theft and screwing it up if all that was planned was a truck theft?? If MS screwed things up he would have lost his money from DM afterwards and probably never been invited on a mission again.

It sounds like DM was overpowering with everyone in his circle. Whatever he said, happened. So I can't see MS thinking "DM wants to steal a truck and I am going to help him so maybe I should also bring my gun along." Even if MS brought his own gun with him, DM knew about it IMO.

I still think MS is just as guilty as DM but I definitely feel like DM pulled the trigger.

MOO.

 

[brightii]

I want them to prove what happened whether it be planned or not planned. The Bosma's need the truth about what happened and why on the night they lost their Tim. In order for closure this is something any family member in my opinion would want. It doesn't matter whether it was 1st degree or second degree. I think they would want to know how, when and why. Did he suffer, did he see it coming? They deserve at least this. From these lying bunch of thieves.

I agree. My goodness the wondering must be unbearable for TB's family.

All MOO.

 

[hopingforjustice]

At this point in the trial

I am 100% sure that shooting TB in the truck was unplanned.
I am 50% sure that DM pulled the trigger. This is based on his letters, since they seem to be for CN's eyes only
I am 80% sure that MS pulled the trigger. This based on how the "F%^$%% up" comments align, both BD's testimony and DM's letters.

There is much evidence of both being at the test drive and at the hanger using the Eliminator. So both are guilty of many things. There is also some evidence that the planning for this mission was different than other missions we heard about.
1) No Lookouts
2) Items planned for the mission, Generator, gloves, tape, and change of clothes.

There is MM's testimony of the mood in the Yukon on the morning of the 7th. Still struggling with this one.

Hopefully we hear something that adds to the mission planning that shows it was a murder mission. MS sending pictures of fireside furniture and sausage frying just before the mission is still very troubling to me.

Because the location TB was shot (in the truck), and that I believe it was unplanned to shoot him there, I am struggling with robbery or planned murder. I didn't want to be here at this point in the trial. But that's me, and my belief in knowing truth over seeing two low life's like DM and MS get worse case guess based on their creepy and disgusting world.

If I allow my emotions to weigh in, both are 100% guilty of first degree.

MOO

So far I am seeing most people believe the "I f*&*'d up" comment to believe that MS is saying he shot TB. What if it just means something like that he had certain jobs to do within this mission to ensure its success and he failed on something he was supposed to do. And that failure resulted in their master plan going awry. Maybe they didn't plan to kill TB. Maybe they were going to leave him stranded somewhere and MS got stuck in red lights or made a wrong turn and got lost and that left DM alone with "no choice" but to kill TB. Or that he was supposed to do the killing and missed or his gun jammed and that forced DM to do it., All I am just saying that I don't believe that MS stating that he "f&*&'d up" necessarily means that he did the killing. It could mean any number of things. They are both still guilty in my mind either way..

 

[Arnie M]

I have a thought on why it feels like premeditated murder to me. Even just going off AM's statement saying DM asked him "should I steal the truck from the a**hole or the nice guy?". He was putting too much thought into which person to steal from. Was he having a moral dilemma not so much about which truck to take (as they were identical from what I understand) but which person's life to take?

The reason I am thinking this too is he was worried about AM's statement and wanting it changed just to "which truck should I buy?" and having nothing to do with the personal characterizations of the owners.

DM didn't seem to have morals about much in life but I really feel like his question to AM was some kind of moral dilemma to him about which person to murder?

Like many have said, if DM just wanted to steal a truck he could have gone and found one in the cover of darkness and taken it. For some reason this was the first time he stole something with the owner present and that person ends up dead? Not a coincidence to me.

All MOO.

HA !! .... You're in my head mozzagirl .... I keep pondering the same thing

--- even though AM came across as a good witness I suspect he had some partial knowledge the theft may involve a killing

--- From AM's perspective a truck is a distant inert item that should not provoke an emotional response

--- the emotional response "F-U" from AM came when DM asked him whether it should be the nice guy or the a**hole guy

--- I think AM clearly knew they were going to steal the truck and only suspected they were going to kill the owner .... but "suspicions" are not "evidence" and he could only testify in court to what he clearly heard DM say (steal a truck).

.

 

[mozzagirl]

Knowing the layout of Toronto, CN's bail condition about being allowed out alone only for school and work don't seem horribly limiting when you know that her job is apparently in the east end of Toronto and she lives in the west end. She posts photos on instagram of the subway so she gets the freedom of going back and forth on the subway to work alone. To get back and forth by public transit in the city is several hours a day.

That alone doesn't make her bail conditions actually seem very limiting which IMO is upsetting. Unless, maybe she was given specific ways to travel by her bail and if her ankle bracelet shows her doing something different she gets in trouble.

Does anyone know how much things like her ankle bracelet really get monitored?

 

[mozzagirl]

Since MM testifying that she tried repeatedly to talk MS out of going on that test drive I have changed my thoughts on why MS was saying "I f'd up". I originally thought it had something to do with him possibly being the shooter. I am pretty sure its been said MS didn't start saying this until after DM was arrested and then MS panicked and said he "f'd up". IMO, he was saying that in regards to the fact that he should have listened to MM and not gone with DM that night. He was probably realizing MM was looking out for his best interests when begging him and he ignored her and now the police would soon be hot on his trail.

MOO.

 

[Tilly23]

So far I am seeing most people believe the "I f*&*'d up" comment to believe that MS is saying he shot TB. What if it just means something like that he had certain jobs to do within this mission to ensure its success and he failed on something he was supposed to do. And that failure resulted in their master plan going awry. Maybe they didn't plan to kill TB. Maybe they were going to leave him stranded somewhere and MS got stuck in red lights or made a wrong turn and got lost and that left DM alone with "no choice" but to kill TB. I am not saying I believe this to be what happened..because I really don't, I am just saying that I don't believe that MS stating that he "f&*&'d up" means that he did the killing. It could mean any number of things.

I think you could be onto something here. Given the celebration of the successful mission as reported by MM when they came to pick her up at 8 am on the morning after, I wonder what it could be. It seemed it was not apparent to MS until later. So, I don't think it was that the plan was only to steal the truck and then they had to kill TB.

What was the timing of when MS is reported to have said that he F'd up? Did he realize after the fact that he should not have taken his cell phone with him on the mission? That he should not have texted the frying sausage pic? Or maybe he realized he shouldn't have trusted DM and now he was expecting to be arrested?

MOO.

 

[Errrr]

I agree with you that DM likely was the shooter, and that is why MS did not get any gsr in the yukon, nor any blood. I cannot understand why, if DM's fingerprints are on the gun, MS does not reveal the location of the gun to prove it was not him who held it, and shot TB. Would this not help his case, and improve his chances of getting convicted of second degree murder ? IMO

It was MSs gun. In all probability MS handled it afterwards. If DM then took it and locked it in the toolbox for safekeeping that could have become a source of stress for MS. I wonder if CN started thinking set-up which led to the strange move of removing fingerprints. They could have been easily explained you would think. Why did he have her put on gloves for one stage but not another, then put them in his pocket? Why did he involve her at all? Did Rabbit actually have some inkling of what her son really was? It's amazing to me how many people disengaged themselves from evidence so quickly in this case when they had no part in the proceedings.

 

[musicaljoke]

IMO...

From what we know so far MS was in it for the money he would get paid when the "mission" was complete. MM made it sound like MS really relied on this money from missions so why would he risk bringing a gun to DM's truck theft and screwing it up if all that was planned was a truck theft?? If MS screwed things up he would have lost his money from DM afterwards and probably never been invited on a mission again.

MOO.

Do you suppose that the pound of weed was MS' pay for his assistance in the mission?

 

[brightii]

MS has had his best friend and MM testify that he received a gun in the toolbox, that he was not expecting to receive it, IMO. AM and MH's testimonies didn't jive on who directed that MS receive the toolbox, IMO. MH said DM told MH to hold on to it, and then the next day AM says to MH that MS wanted it, and that DM would want MS to have it, IIRC. DM was in jail and apparently AM and MS were speaking on the phone and in texts about getting the weed to MS, but no mention of a toolbox, IMO. The toolbox evidence is problematic for me, IMO. I still don't believe AM was telling the WHOLE truth, IMO. When MH said that his and AM's friendship was severed due to lies told, I can't shake that from my memory. IMO all involved have more information than they are willing to divulge.

I wonder how TD will handle the toolbox with the gun issue for MS and I wonder if he will offer any explanation as to why MS has not revealed where he hid it, IMO. The optics of MS's failure to reveal where he hid the gun is extremely damaging to his case, IMO and it makes no sense to me.

All MOO.

 

[ArianeEmory]

It was MSs gun. In all probability MS handled it afterwards. If DM then took it and locked it in the toolbox for safekeeping that could have become a source of stress for MS. I wonder if CN started thinking set-up which led to the strange move of removing fingerprints. They could have been easily explained you would think. Why did he have her put on gloves for one stage but not another, then put them in his pocket? Why did he involve her at all? Did Rabbit actually have some inkling of what her son really was? It's amazing to me how many people disengaged themselves from evidence so quickly in this case when they had no part in the proceedings.

On what are you basing the statement "it was MS's gun"?

I don't have links in front of me, but I thought we heard testimony about DM buying a walther .380 from MWJ for $1200, same caliber as the shell casing? (I am open to correction if I've got this wrong.) And in the past I've seen posts that DM bought a concealed .380 holster on eBay. (I don't believe that part came up in the trial.)

Miranda16 asks up thread how we know DM drove the Dodge, I feel like this is something we're pretty solid on but I can't remember why. Is it because he told SS he drove it while sitting on a crate or something? He also had the Dodge key on his keyring. But wasn't there something else?

Edited to add: on the "I f'd up" comment. You know how sometimes when people say "I'm sorry " they really mean "I'm sorry I got caught"?

I think this was MS's moment of regret for being involved with killing TB, and to a large degree it was regret because he knew then he was going to be caught.

Still personally undecided on who pulled the trigger, but the GSR was over the driver's seat, and DM drove away from the Bosmas' house, and he was the one with $1200 to buy an illegal handgun.

 

[mozzagirl]

Do you suppose that the pound of weed was MS' pay for his assistance in the mission?

No I don't think so. According to MM, his payment for missions was always in money. So I don't see this one being any different.