Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #12

[swedie]

On what are you basing the statement "it was MS's gun"?

I don't have links in front of me, but I thought we heard testimony about DM buying a walther .380 from MWJ for $1200, same caliber as the shell casing? (I am open to correction if I've got this wrong.) And in the past I've seen posts that DM bought a concealed .380 holster on eBay. (I don't believe that part came up in the trial.)

Miranda16 asks up thread how we know DM drove the Dodge, I feel like this is something we're pretty solid on but I can't remember why. Is it because he told SS he drove it while sitting on a crate or something? He also had the Dodge key on his keyring. But wasn't there something else?

Edited to add: on the "I f'd up" comment. You know how sometimes when people say "I'm sorry " they really mean "I'm sorry I got caught"?

I think this was MS's moment of regret for being involved with killing TB, and to a large degree it was regret because he knew then he was going to be caught.

Still personally undecided on who pulled the trigger, but the GSR was over the driver's seat, and DM drove away from the Bosmas' house, and he was the one with $1200 to buy an illegal handgun.

I agree with your comments AE and was thinking the speculation it was MS driving the Yukon also comes from because it was DM who jumped into the driver's seat when the three left on the test drive.

I got thinking back to the very early days of when TB went missing, just after DM's arrest. Many sleuthers speculated DM had parked his red Dodge and trailer in some obscure place and then drove TB's truck to it and loaded it into the trailer. Now reflecting back, IF DM only had intentions of stealing TB's truck, that would have been the most optimal way to carry out the theft. They did not have to murder TB. They could have simply taken TB's cell phone from him and dumped him in the middle of nowhere. By the time TB was able to get to a phone or help, the perps would have been long gone with his truck concealed inside the trailer. TB's murder, incineration and truck theft was all inclusive. I don't think DM cared whether there was a bloody mess inside the truck as he knew he had the place and means to take care of any damage. As long as he had the truck, DM felt everything else would have fallen into place.

When MS told MM that he f*ed up, I took that to mean that he then regretted going along with DM's plan to steal TB's truck especially knowing the owner was murdered. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. I really do hope MS takes the stand in his own defense and clears up (truthfully) a lot of unanswered questions. I don't think at this stage in the game MS has anything to lose. MS might get at the least second degree murder. DM won't be so lucky as I predict first degree will be his "reward" in this case, and also in the two other murder trials he is facing. DM's psychopath traits are seeping right through his evil soul. SB couldn't have been more correct when she said, "The devil led the vilest form of evil down my driveway, and it smiled at me before taking Tim away.” ALL MOO.

 

[Arnie M]

The urgency ws DM's need for money and this was a practice run.

"Millard texts Michalski: "about 100,000 a month and I'll be out of the hole." Day 33: Michalski testimony
Apr 5 - Michalski texts Millard: "challenge accepted." Day 33: Michalski testimony
Apr 5 - Millard texts Michalski: "I don't have the choice to accept or decline (unless I want to take up residence under the gardener)"
Apr 5 - Millard texts Michalski: "...it's what it is and it must happen."

I think his hairbrained idea was to do body disposal jobs to bring in money, and this was a practice run. Maybe both theft and disposal.

MS was also ansy for a mission.

I think the $100,000 a month was in regard to the hangar .... that is the going rate if he could rent or lease it to a commuter airline (etc) .... it would pay the bills & loans and give him some financial relief ...... the point DM was making to AM was he had to focus on that business first , then the next year would be back to fun stuff and inventions

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Weekend-Discussion-10&p=12472205#post12472205

I do agree with you that the theft - incineration was not a one time thing .... it was just the beginning of one of his hairbrained ideas.


.

 

[deugirtni]

She's an odd bird. I get why she related the bit about the car ride sex act, I just don't get why she felt the need to say she banged him when she got home and when he got up a few hours later. Those details could have easily been left out and nobody would be the wiser, yet she willingly puts it out there. Almost like she's bragging about it.

I'm quite behind on posts, but imo, CN is totally lying. She thought she and DM were mutually exclusive although she has her suspicions, which had been denied by DM when confronted. Through this trial she has undoubtedly discovered through the media that not only was he not exclusive, but there were several other women in his sights, if not all in his bed (add MM to his list of women he wanted sex from). I believe CN was trying to overcome her humiliation by throwing it back at both the ex-fiance and LW2. By saying she had 'made love' with DM 2 times on the same morning that DM had been making plans to 'breakfast' with 'Jenn', and I believe this was also the same day that LW2 was offering to come and make DM's day '50% better'.

Has anyone noticed the discrepancy in regard to CN's testimony about the 'making love' when they got back to MapleGate on the 10th after hiding all of that evidence? She and DM had gone out and done all of that together, arriving home at 4 or 5 am, at which time she was so tired, but they still 'made love' in his bed (note, I am wondering why CN felt the need to elaborate on this?)...... then fell asleep... then woke up and 'sleepily' 'became intimate' once again, before DM left 'at dawn'. By the timing, the two arrived home AT dawn, but yet they have time to 'make love', fall asleep, wake up and become intimate again, AND he leaves at dawn (the day before, he had told MS he had to be at the hangar for 6am on this day). So between dawn and dawn, all of that happened. Doesn't add up.

from AC's live blog re May 10th:

Apr 28 2016 10:48 AM
Noudga says they got back to Millard's Maplegate home between 4 a.m. and 5 a.m. She says "we made love in bed ... and then fell asleep."

Apr 28 2016 10:49 AM
She says she was falling asleep on the way back home, so they didn't talk about the toolbox. "A bit of a resurgence when you got home?" Leitch says.

Apr 28 2016 10:49 AM
"We became intimate in the morning again, sleepily so," she says.

Apr 28 2016 10:50 AM
She says Millard got up around dawn and left.

from MH's Tweets re May 10th:

At 11:02am Rabbit texts "why is your trailer here??? Is it usually in the hangar??? What's up? Why the hurry last night?" #Bosma Apr 19, 2016

then more business texts w Lisa Williams re: payroll, WSIB filing etc. #Bosma Apr 19, 2016

At 12:06pm Kinks: "hope your days going well." #Bosma Apr 19, 2016

Lisa asks how his day is. Millard phone responds "stress filled." #Bosma Apr 19, 2016

She replies "...want me to come over later and ease your stress and make your day 50 times better?" Apr 19, 2016

from AC's Tweets re May 9th:

Now moving to May 9. #TimBosma #Bosma Apr 19, 2016

There are more messages with Jenn here about meeting up for breakfast or lunch. #TimBosma #Bosma Apr 19, 2016

There are also messages here with "Rabbit," who the Crown believes is Millard's mom. She refers to herself in a message as "Mutty." #Bosma Apr 19, 2016

A message from "Juice" at 10:14 a.m.: "What are you saying?" #TimBosma #Bosma Apr 19, 2016

• Response back from Millard's phone: "I have to be at the hangar for 6 a.m. tomorrow. (I've gotten a lot done #TimBosma #Bosma Apr 19, 2016

 

[deugirtni]

I think the $100,000 a month was in regard to the hangar .... that is the going rate if he could rent or lease it to a commuter airline (etc) .... it would pay the bills & loans and give him some financial relief ...... the point DM was making to AM was he had to focus on that business first , then the next year would be back to fun stuff and inventions

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Weekend-Discussion-10&p=12472205#post12472205

I do agree with you that the theft - incineration was not a one time thing .... it was just the beginning of one of his hairbrained ideas.


.

Imo, he wasn't talking about $100,000/month in relation to renting space at the hangar; see below; previous discussion here made it seem it would be impossible to make that kind of money simply by stealing stuff and selling it, or even by drug-dealing (which apparently he was already doing anyway):

from MH's Tweets:

Dungey now referencing the April 5, 2013 text convo (when Millard says "about 100,000 a month and I'll be out of the hole.") #Bosma Apr 14, 2016

Michalski responded to him "challenge accepted." He says he was joking, like 'I'm right there with you.' #Bosma Apr 14, 2016

Michalski says "let's do it." #Bosma Apr 14, 2016

Millard: "I'm not sure if you're up for my methods...hard work is one thing, scary work is another and the law is very intimidating." #Bosma Apr 14, 2016

Michalski says he assumed by that that Millard had meant drugs or stealing another Bobcat. Criminal activity, Dungey suggests. Yes. #Bosma Apr 14, 2016

Dungey: that's how he's going to get out of the hole. Michalski agrees. #Bosma Apr 14, 2016

 

[Dutchman]

If the hose had blood, he must have been washing something bloody. He had asked about the power washer. Cjouldn't find it so took something to Riverside to wash? Then wanted to wash blood away.

Wondering if MS messages irretrievable were planning the seat burn, etc.

Wonder if SS got new phone to get rid of text msg because DM had asked him to help load the truck into the trailer? He was up there with him that day to hide the red truck.IMO

JV testified as on day 27 post 81 that he bought two new hoses. And was asked to run them for 10 hrs. That was on Friday morning. So that was well after the crime. But we do know from the blood splatters under the truck carriage that it had been pressured washed. So SS brought it back. Not trusting his testimony what so ever. But jmo.

 

[Dutchman]

Just one more thing that seems wrong. Pedo the dog is seen in the video at the hanger in the wee hours of the morning. Did the dog sit in the Yukon waiting for the boys to do their test drive? Was he at the hanger ? Wish the dog could testify he certainly would be more truthful than some of the others. Jmo.

 

[deugirtni]

JV testified as on day 27 post 81 that he bought two new hoses. And was asked to run them for 10 hrs. That was on Friday morning. So that was well after the crime. But we do know from the blood splatters under the truck carriage that it had been pressured washed. So SS brought it back. Not trusting his testimony what so ever. But jmo.

If that is true, then wouldn't that mean that SS showed up on Wed morning with the pressure washer, and the truck was THEN hosed off, and that would mean in front of SS (and perhaps also AJ, although I believe he may have come in later than SS?), (and perhaps not only in front of, but possibly SS assisted him?), and then the truck was moved into place on the tarp inside of the hangar after that, all before AJ arrived (or perhaps AJ saw/assisted as well?). SS (although his testimony, imo, is worthless anyway) and AJ both said the truck was there on the tarp inside the hangar when they arrived on the Wednesday morning.

If DM had gone so far in his planning and thinking, to 'protect' his friend AM, by not telling him anything, wouldn't the same go for SS? Would he want SS to actually witness him hosing blood off of the exterior (and perhaps interior?) of the truck?

This seems to be one of those blank spots where something is missing, since DM texted SS asking about the pressure washer at 5:42am on the Wednesday. So that would suggest that either DM went ahead and washed TB's truck exterior using a different tool/hose, (that could be why there was spatter remaining on the underside of the truck?) before SS showed up for work that day, ... or SS was present when the truck was being washed (and possibly also AJ), ... or the truck still had all of that blood on it for SS and AJ to potentially see, and it was power-washed at a different time (perhaps DM and MS (or CN?) took the truck inside the trailer to Riverview at some point in between taking it out of the hangar and delivering it to MB's driveway?).

If the truck had been hosed down prior to SS showing up on Wednesday morning, wouldn't he and AJ have noticed the water that would inevitably be present on the tarp, indicating the truck had just been washed? I suppose there also could have been a second pressure-washer, perhaps one that didn't work as well as the one that SS had in his vehicle?

moo

ACarter's blog on March 21st:

12:31 PM
On May 8 at 5:42 a.m., Millard texts Schlatman "Do you have the power washer?"
...
12:33 PM
The washer was in Schlatman's van, texts show. He took it out of his van when he got to work that day and put it in the hangar, he says.
12:34 PM
"There's a black pickup truck parked in the middle of the hangar," Schaltman says about coming to work on May 8.

 

[deugirtni]

Just one more thing that seems wrong. Pedo the dog is seen in the video at the hanger in the wee hours of the morning. Did the dog sit in the Yukon waiting for the boys to do their test drive? Was he at the hanger ? Wish the dog could testify he certainly would be more truthful than some of the others. Jmo.

I can't remember what DM had been up to prior to picking MS up on the evening of the 6th. If the dog was in the Yukon, apparently he would have only been alone in there for a few minutes before MS got in and started driving it.

I wonder if when the Yukon went for a quick outing in the middle of the night after arriving with the incinerator at the hangar, the purpose was to go to the store to purchase dogfood for Pedo? He may have been starving by then!

(Poor Pedo )

 

[Inspector_North]

It has been mentioned that they are only half way through reading the letters. One trend that is noticeable as we hear the letters is DM's change in plan, or at least his appended actions to counter information he is receiving through disclosure. At first he had his head wrapped around the case. Later he mentions the cell phone records, and that they were damaging if he didn't lend out his phone.

As the letters progress in chronological order, we hear about his next idea to counter information he is receiving from disclosure. Once he knows about AM, he writes CN with his adjusted plan.

With only being half way through the letters, I expect some additional (foot in mouth) changes suggested in the letters that will be revealing as disclosure dumps mountains of evidence on his lap.

MOO

 

[Miranda16]

Miranda16 asks up thread how we know DM drove the Dodge, I feel like this is something we're pretty solid on but I can't remember why. Is it because he told SS he drove it while sitting on a crate or something? He also had the Dodge key on his keyring. But wasn't there something else?

Thanks. I was asking how we know that DM had the Dodge and MS the Yukon at the point when the Yukon was retrieved?
SS said that DM told him he drove the Dodge back to the hangar after 'buying it in Kitchener' while sitting on a pail.
but prior to the seat removal (was the seat ever found?) do we know? We don't know for sure who is driving each vehicle in the surveillance video prior to the Yukon and Dodge going to the hangar (with Eliminator in tow) do we?

Making a point of it because we don't know for sure if TB was shot before or after the Yukon was retrieved, do we? It makes sense that he was shot after because the Yukon did not have DNA evidence (right?) but in that case we don't know who Returned to the Yukon and who stayed with the Dodge and TB (the shooter)

I don't have a strong opinion whether DM or MS was the shooter (could be either or both in my mind - though where is the second gun?). But if he was shot by one of them after going back for the Yukon, how did they explain the vehicle retrieval detour to TB unless they already had him at gunpoint and/or had restrained him (they said that they were dropped off by a friend who was waiting at Tim Horton's)

I'm sure they didn't intend to shoot him in the vehicle (although in DM's sick mind the change of plan and sponteneity could have been a thrill). So either TB fought back or tried to escape or one of the perps got jumpy and shot him early (MS more likely in this scenario IMO)

I also dont don't understand why they towed the eliminator to the hangar rather than using it at the farm (with no surveillance) but I guess that's because the farm had no electricity/lights and it was too dark to 'work'

Whole post IMO

 

[Miranda16]

Not only that, but I feel like we recently learned that MS was only going to receive $300 for the Dodge theft?

could be what he told MM but could have been expecting more In reality?

 

[Inspector_North]

Thanks. I was asking how we know that DM had the Dodge and MS the Yukon at the point when the Yukon was retrieved?
SS said that DM told him he drove the Dodge back to the hangar after 'buying it in Kitchener' while sitting on a pail.
but prior to the seat removal (was the seat ever found?) do we know? We don't know for sure who is driving each vehicle in the surveillance video prior to the Yukon and Dodge going to the hangar (with Eliminator in tow) do we?

Making a point of it because we don't know for sure if TB was shot before or after the Yukon was retrieved, do we? It makes sense that he was shot after because the Yukon did not have DNA evidence (right?) but in that case we don't know who Returned to the Yukon and who stayed with the Dodge and TB (the shooter)

I don't have a strong opinion whether DM or MS was the shooter (could be either or both in my mind - though where is the second gun?). But if he was shot by one of them after going back for the Yukon, how did they explain the vehicle retrieval detour to TB unless they already had him at gunpoint and/or had restrained him (they said that they were dropped off by a friend who was waiting at Tim Horton's)

I'm sure they didn't intend to shoot him in the vehicle (although in DM's sick mind the change of plan and sponteneity could have been a thrill). So either TB fought back or tried to escape or one of the perps got jumpy and shot him early (MS more likely in this scenario IMO)

I also dont don't understand why they towed the eliminator to the hangar rather than using it at the farm (with no surveillance) but I guess that's because the farm had no electricity/lights and it was too dark to 'work'

Whole post IMO

I believe their initial plan was to use the farm for incineration, but they had a truck to clean. Even cleaning the truck in parallel ended up taking longer than the time planned for a incineration only murder. Remember that DM texted folks not to come in to work on the 7th, and the message was not sent out until around 5:00 am on the 7th. Indicating to me, that the cleanup of the truck was not planned, nor was the incinerator supposed to be cooling down at the hanger that morning.

MOO

 

[Gibson67]

I don't agree. It has nothing to do with her continued loyalty to him. She is loyal to herself. All of her statements and memory lapses are regarding her own knowledge and involvement in the crime. JMO

I agree..if she were to spill the beans and tell the truth of what she knows..it is out there in the media and on record..then to go into her own trial and lie and say she knows nothing..why would she do that..even though nothing can be used against her for her own trial. She is not going to tell 2 different stories..she is staying MUM to save her own skin..which is unfortunate because she might be the only one who knows the real story.

 

[Miranda16]

My thoughts are along that line too ....... DM was to do the driving and MS was to shoot the victim in the back of the head with mushroom-fragmenting-zombie ammo that does not exit the body (no mess) .... and either the headrest was in the way and he tried it from the left rear seat and missed or wounded TB and then had to take several more shots which broke the window and caused wounds that bled onto the seats and carpets .... or he first tried to shoot thru the foam padded headrest which would have slowed the bullet right down and it only caused injuries at first.

That would also concur with DM telling CN he had to clean up Mark's Mess ..... it would certainly be an F-Up by MS because they ended up having to work all night removing seats and carpets and cleaning up blood from the interior instead of just parking the truck somewhere or send it to the paint shop or whatever ...... and because of all that extra work and the time involved the partly stripped truck was still sitting on a tarp in the hangar to be seen and noticed by the employee who called crime stoppers.

I think Mark's Mess was the big F-Up ..... there is no way they anticipated or planned to contaminate the interior like that ..... it fits with the whole zombie-ammo purpose .... a small 9mm entrance wound and no exit wounds and the truck interior could remain intact.

good theory. The entrance wound would still bleed a lot though. So I still think they intended to force or trick TB out of the truck first before shooting him. Then again these guys aren't genius planners (though in some ways DM does seem very intelligent - e.g. Languages and ability to lie/manipulate)

 

[Georgeo]

Horrible crime and such a tragedy.

Just joined WS, but following for a while. I've been wondering about that: it seems that they each had a gun, so where is the second gun? Were there actually 2 guns in the toolbox? DM texted '2' back in response to the MH question about guns didn't he? Did MS actually bury 2 guns? If not wouldn't the police have found a second one in one of the searched properties?

other things I'm wondering about:
- it seems to be a common theory that MS was driving the Yukon on the evening of the murder. Why is that? Couldn't it have been DM driving it? Any clues either way?
- I think the murder was planned and both knew in advance, but I agree with the posters who said that they could have originally been planning to force TB out of the truck at the farm (to avoid crime scene in the stolen truck)
- if they had gone ahead with an assault on IT during the first test drive, how would they have carried it out? It was during daylight hours (in a more populated area) and further from the farm. In that case wouldn't they have had to attack him in broad daylight in the truck?
- I assume that more of the gang besides MS could have realized that DM's crimes were escalating beyond just theft. E.g. I'm sure that SS knew more and maybe (likely?) CN. The incinerator could only have had a sinister purpose (this proves long-term planning of evil acts by DM and I assume it was used with LB?).
- who amongst the friends would believe that a truck would be stolen following a test drive? Wouldn't they have just stolen it at night if theft was the goal? To a thief would showing your face to the victim be worth it in exchange for verifying the operability of the truck in a test drive? Wouldn't it cause suspicion if a truck for sale was stolen after a test drive (while owner is away or asleep)? I'm Asking not because I think this was intended but because DM would need to be confident that the non-insiders would 'buy-in' to the theft idea (as SS pretended to do with the talk that DM 'bought' a hot truck)
- why did DM keep the murder weapon(s) initially after the murder? Why not convince MS to take them immediately if he wanted to frame him if necessary (maybe he was so confident of his invincibility that he wanted to retain them for the next 'mission'?
- was TB shot before or after they retrieved the Yukon? Good theories by posters that the Yukon driver was 'clean' and therefore TB was shot after MS and DM retrieved the Yukon, but I think it is a risky move for a driver to try to shoot a passenger at close quarters in the front seat. E.g. a desperate/brave victim could try to grab the gun arm. Maybe that's what happened and the shooter got the shot off fast, but it is a risky move for a shooter and I'm not sure that DM or MS would risk it. I would think that they wanted both to be present during the shooting to make sure that the victim could not turn the tables on a single assailant.
- they could have tried to order TB out of the truck, intending to restrain him with tape, retrieve the Yukon, and then bring him to the farm to murder him (as someone suggested) but he fought back at this stage before they could force him out of the truck? Maybe but wouldn't most people cooperate with a gunman, thinking that cooperation would get them released?

this scenario makes the most sense to me. Fills in all the questions about water running at Riverside for 10 hours to wash away any trace of the ashes.

 

[SnooperDuper]

This article transcribes a lot of the letters that were presented at trial on Thursday

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...y-treated-me-as-though-i-were-hannibal-lecter

 

[Gibson67]

So are we to assume that since this is the last crown witness..he never did have breakfast with Jen? She was never called to testify..or perhaps she was questioned and they felt she did not know anything? Funny how all these other names were brought up in the trial but we never got to hear from them or find out who they were.

 

[hellkat2]

Loyalty to his mentor?

No loyalty among thieves. As you can see by the testimony to date.

 

[Inspector_North]

this scenario makes the most sense to me. Fills in all the questions about water running at Riverside for 10 hours to wash away any trace of the ashes.

At this point in the trial, I am trying to get my head around what this information will bring to getting a conviction of first degree?

We already know that both DM and MS were the ones who stole the truck.
We know they were both at the hanger during the use of the incinerator.
We already know that a small portion of Tim's remains were found in the incinerator
We know much about what both were up to after the mission related to evidence in their possession, truck, toolbox, gun, etc.

The hose running has to be more than just proving the destruction of biological evidence. It has to be part of the 'story' that supports what the crown is promising to prove. Maybe who was there, i.e. CN when they dumped or cleaned evidence that the hose was used to erase.

MOO

 

[musicaljoke]

If that is true, then wouldn't that mean that SS showed up on Wed morning with the pressure washer, and the truck was THEN hosed off, and that would mean in front of SS (and perhaps also AJ, although I believe he may have come in later than SS?), (and perhaps not only in front of, but possibly SS assisted him?), and then the truck was moved into place on the tarp inside of the hangar after that, all before AJ arrived (or perhaps AJ saw/assisted as well?). SS (although his testimony, imo, is worthless anyway) and AJ both said the truck was there on the tarp inside the hangar when they arrived on the Wednesday morning.

If DM had gone so far in his planning and thinking, to 'protect' his friend AM, by not telling him anything, wouldn't the same go for SS? Would he want SS to actually witness him hosing blood off of the exterior (and perhaps interior?) of the truck?

This seems to be one of those blank spots where something is missing, since DM texted SS asking about the pressure washer at 5:42am on the Wednesday. So that would suggest that either DM went ahead and washed TB's truck exterior using a different tool/hose, (that could be why there was spatter remaining on the underside of the truck?) before SS showed up for work that day, ... or SS was present when the truck was being washed (and possibly also AJ), ... or the truck still had all of that blood on it for SS and AJ to potentially see, and it was power-washed at a different time (perhaps DM and MS (or CN?) took the truck inside the trailer to Riverview at some point in between taking it out of the hangar and delivering it to MB's driveway?).

If the truck had been hosed down prior to SS showing up on Wednesday morning, wouldn't he and AJ have noticed the water that would inevitably be present on the tarp, indicating the truck had just been washed? I suppose there also could have been a second pressure-washer, perhaps one that didn't work as well as the one that SS had in his vehicle?

moo

ACarter's blog on March 21st:

Do you think that the truck was on the tarp for it to be pressure washed? The tarp would do nothing to contain the water and just get blown all over the place by the pressure washer. Could the truck have been put on the tarp in preparation for painting or whatever alterations they had in mind?