Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #12

[Miranda16]

I think shooting was not planned. Incapacitate or kill in a bloodless manner - strangle with a cord from behind, or blow to the head (orange guy is a plastic mallet? They sell those in home depot) and may be tie up with tape. Or do so at the gun point. I'm nd you, they based on super sucker and bullmann observations they had either 2-3 or 5-10 minutes to transfer MS to Yukon. I'd say Tim Bosma was incapacitated either right after they left Bosma's residence or on Trinity road north of super sucker (depending on whether the 9:15 and 9:20 RAM sightings are Bosma's truck)

MS fks up by either not strangling enough and missing vitals, or not delivering sufficient blows, or doesn't tie well enough. They drive up Paris Rd, Tim Bosma regains consciousness or releases himself partially, may be breaks the window? DM has to immediately pull to oak park Rd (it's an over 90degree turn, not a good place for non urgent pull over) and pulls handgun keeping in his left hand. Driving down oak park he sees houses left and right, can't shoot ( mind you, 380 produces a muzzle report of over 157 dB). Finally he crosses the railroad and sees an industrial area and he shoots while still moving. He breaks almost immediately, yukon nearly rears the pickup. Possibly the first shot hits the window, second shot severes the carotid artery and Bosma dies a horrible death within 15-20 seconds. Blood all over. MS and DM assess the situation, and decide to move quickly. Possibly cover the body with tarp or repositioning so that it's less visible. But not moving to the trunk. Heavy bleeding would on the ground would prompt a 911 call next morning. Guaranteed, soil from the ditch was tested for blood. DM and MS do not know the area because instead of going around the block they make a U-turn, which doesn't save any time, looks suspicious, and given MS being a novice driver and the unpaved shoulder may lead to more trouble. My interpretation

Detailed theory, thanks. BTW "soil from the ditch was tested for blood" - did this detail actually come up in the trial?
The idea that MS struck or choked TB from behind soon after starting the test drive seems plausible. I think TB could have been incapacitated or restrained physically or with the gun prior to dropping off the Yukon driver (now in my mind it makes sense for the Yukon driver to be MS because DM drove the Dodge in the beginning and he would want to keep control of his 'prize'). It also explains why they couldn't take a chance with IT despite having 1 or 2 firearms. MS is so small and weak looking, though. Could DM count on MS's physical ability against any victim (even with the element of surprise and rear-seat advantage)?

However the idea of DM shooting while driving and while trying to navigate to an isolated location is somewhat far-fetched. I think that shooting in close quarters while driving would be very difficult to do unless TB was very groggy from being struck/choked or was partially tied. I think it is more likely that the Dodge was stationary during the shooting (if it was the driver who shot). So I can believe that the shooting occurred in the Dodge on the spur of the moment as TB started to wake/escape/fight. I just think that if it occurred while driving, it would be difficult (not impossible) for the driver to shoot (and this could have ended happier). E.g what a happy turn of events if they had attacked IT instead and he had pummelled and disarmed them.

if TB was choked/struck in the Dodge then these tools (rope/mallet) would need to be in DM's satchel initially (couldn't be hidden in MS's hoody pouch) - so DM hands the satchel to MS at start of drive - "here Mark, hold this for me"

 

[Typhoo1961]

This article transcribes a lot of the letters that were presented at trial on Thursday

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...y-treated-me-as-though-i-were-hannibal-lecter

That guy is DELUSIONAL!!!

 

[hellkat2]

I agree with your comments AE and was thinking the speculation it was MS driving the Yukon also comes from because it was DM who jumped into the driver's seat when the three left on the test drive.

I got thinking back to the very early days of when TB went missing, just after DM's arrest. Many sleuthers speculated DM had parked his red Dodge and trailer in some obscure place and then drove TB's truck to it and loaded it into the trailer. Now reflecting back, IF DM only had intentions of stealing TB's truck, that would have been the most optimal way to carry out the theft. They did not have to murder TB. They could have simply taken TB's cell phone from him and dumped him in the middle of nowhere. By the time TB was able to get to a phone or help, the perps would have been long gone with his truck concealed inside the trailer. TB's murder, incineration and truck theft was all inclusive. I don't think DM cared whether there was a bloody mess inside the truck as he knew he had the place and means to take care of any damage. As long as he had the truck, DM felt everything else would have fallen into place.

When MS told MM that he f*ed up, I took that to mean that he then regretted going along with DM's plan to steal TB's truck especially knowing the owner was murdered. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. I really do hope MS takes the stand in his own defense and clears up (truthfully) a lot of unanswered questions. I don't think at this stage in the game MS has anything to lose. MS might get at the least second degree murder. DM won't be so lucky as I predict first degree will be his "reward" in this case, and also in the two other murder trials he is facing. DM's psychopath traits are seeping right through his evil soul. SB couldn't have been more correct when she said, "The devil led the vilest form of evil down my driveway, and it smiled at me before taking Tim away.” ALL MOO.

IMO....Quick and easy is DM's bio. Stealing instead of buying. It was reported that TB and his wife had discussion as to whether TB should go with dm & MS. That tells me that TB had his antenna out as most would in this kind of a situation. MS was described as standing on the fringe when the initial intro's in the driveway took place. DM's role was the frontman. If the theory is that it was planned, MS was presenting from the get go as having the more sinister role. MS appears to be an anti social & DM is the social type when it comes to psychopath. MS could have taken the gun (his new toy that replaced the skateboard that he still used) to give him bravado and this would be like giving a loaded gun to a 2 year old. In fact they both could have had guns. They may have thought they would use the threat of a gun to make TB get out of the vehicle to allow them to drive away with it. It was posted a long time back that it would have been easy for them (and even gave a html on the kind of hitch that is used) to hook up to any vehicle quickly for theft purposes without using the ball variety which is time consuming. The kind tow companies use to repossess vehicles. It is not as if DM is the kind of thief that cannot afford this kind of thing. He was running the chop shop, had purchased an incinerator etc. They could have just taken it and the other vehicle late at night without involving the owners and for an extra 400 or so dollars got the proper no hitch required mechanism. The other thing that may be in play here that this heinous act was a right of passage that was required to cement their "brotherhood"status? (Part of the thrill kill theories that have been referred to in many discussions). Or.... one of them did this heinous act to ensure that they had something on the other to ensure something to hold over on the other. Doesn't matter. Either way....you murder someone with a gun in a robbery it is murder. Birds of a feather flock together. Curse the day that these two ever met each other.

 

[hellkat2]

At this point in the trial, I am trying to get my head around what this information will bring to getting a conviction of first degree?

We already know that both DM and MS were the ones who stole the truck.
We know they were both at the hanger during the use of the incinerator.
We already know that a small portion of Tim's remains were found in the incinerator
We know much about what both were up to after the mission related to evidence in their possession, truck, toolbox, gun, etc.

The hose running has to be more than just proving the destruction of biological evidence. It has to be part of the 'story' that supports what the crown is promising to prove. Maybe who was there, i.e. CN when they dumped or cleaned evidence that the hose was used to erase.

MOO

This has got to be it.

 

[Inspector_North]

From one of his letters

[FONT=georgia, times new roman, times, serif]“If someone dies accidentally, and then the body is disposed of, that’s not murder. If someone dies accidentally during a robbery, that’s murder,” he writes."[/FONT]

[FONT=georgia, times new roman, times, serif]Yes DM, it was a planned robbery thanks to MM and AM's testimony. And their testimony is backed with pre mission preparation texts. Both DM and MS now understand they will be convicted of murder, and hopefully it is murder one.

I wonder if AM changed his testimony and told LE about the planned robbery only after they heard he was in the room according to MM? I believe it was mentioned that AM had several interviews, and he didn't start telling the truth until page 40 of a 60 page statement.

MOO[/FONT]

 

[Gibson67]

Millard then asks Noudga to check someone’s Facebook page to see if he still has photos up of him “sanding or grinding metal with sparks flying. If that’s still there, save it, and print me a copy, and send it in your next letter. Could be important.

maybe this is Smich..we never got to see any of his facebook pictures...do we know if this pic exists of AM on FB?

“Next, very recently, someone went to my Mum’s house in Kleinberg. They rang the doorbell. There was no answer; no dog barking; my Mum was away.

does his mom have Pedo?

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...y-treated-me-as-though-i-were-hannibal-lecter

 

[Inspector_North]

Millard then asks Noudga to check someone’s Facebook page to see if he still has photos up of him “sanding or grinding metal with sparks flying. If that’s still there, save it, and print me a copy, and send it in your next letter. Could be important.

maybe this is Smich..we never got to see any of his facebook pictures...do we know if this pic exists of AM on FB?

“Next, very recently, someone went to my Mum’s house in Kleinberg. They rang the doorbell. There was no answer; no dog barking; my Mum was away.

does his mom have Pedo?

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...y-treated-me-as-though-i-were-hannibal-lecter

The dog? Aren't you more curious of how he knew almost every step that happened to the visitor?

MOO

 

[Prairie_dawg]

I think shooting was not planned. Incapacitate or kill in a bloodless manner - strangle with a cord from behind, or blow to the head (orange guy is a plastic mallet? They sell those in home depot) and may be tie up with tape. Or do so at the gun point. I'm nd you, they based on super sucker and bullmann observations they had either 2-3 or 5-10 minutes to transfer MS to Yukon. I'd say Tim Bosma was incapacitated either right after they left Bosma's residence or on Trinity road north of super sucker (depending on whether the 9:15 and 9:20 RAM sightings are Bosma's truck)

MS fks up by either not strangling enough and missing vitals, or not delivering sufficient blows, or doesn't tie well enough. They drive up Paris Rd, Tim Bosma regains consciousness or releases himself partially, may be breaks the window? DM has to immediately pull to oak park Rd (it's an over 90degree turn, not a good place for non urgent pull over) and pulls handgun keeping in his left hand. Driving down oak park he sees houses left and right, can't shoot ( mind you, 380 produces a muzzle report of over 157 dB). Finally he crosses the railroad and sees an industrial area and he shoots while still moving. He breaks almost immediately, yukon nearly rears the pickup. Possibly the first shot hits the window, second shot severes the carotid artery and Bosma dies a horrible death within 15-20 seconds. Blood all over. MS and DM assess the situation, and decide to move quickly. Possibly cover the body with tarp or repositioning so that it's less visible. But not moving to the trunk. Heavy bleeding would on the ground would prompt a 911 call next morning. Guaranteed, soil from the ditch was tested for blood. DM and MS do not know the area because instead of going around the block they make a U-turn, which doesn't save any time, looks suspicious, and given MS being a novice driver and the unpaved shoulder may lead to more trouble. My interpretation

Thanks, this is pretty much my exact theory as well. To me this seems most plausible! To me it explains why Tim's phone was found here , and why the perps deviated on their route to the farm. JMO This would explain the MS comment that he F'd up, it explains the short timeframe of the swap at the Yukon S. of Supersucker, it explains MS wanting tape. It explains the 'change of plans' that seemed to occur at the bobcat dealer. It explains GSR on roof of driver side, and the hole in the panel on the door and broken window (I think more than one shot was fired) etc etc etc. It is the simplest solution explaining so much more than other theories that people seem to be pushing. MOO Like many here I think DM and MS are guilty of first degree due to their participation in planning and commission. I think the ONLY way we will ever get to the story of how things played out, will be for MS to take the stand. I don't think DM is capable of hitting the stand, he would come across as the psychopath he appears to be and damage his own defense. MS on the other hand with TD's questioning could be most damaging to DM but this hinges on the above theory that DM alone shot TB. ALL MOO

 

[mozzagirl]

Some of the loose ends like the hose and the bathroom at Riverside, maybe those will come up in his letters? I still feel so confused as to why the Crown and Pillay had so many questions for JV about the hose if it will never come up again. IMO, it HAS to be in one of his letters. Has to.

ETA: There was even a re-cross by the Crown after Pillay's hose questions. So 1000% yes, it will come up in his letters IMO.

 

[mozzagirl]

IMO, other than it possibly being a "he is mine" statement to DM's other women, I believe CN had a few different reasons for bringing up the "sexual expedition" and sex.

1. It gives lots of opportunity for her DNA to end up on DM's person and therefore the gloves
2. I am sure any woman on here used the "it's a lady problem" excuse when in school and needing to get out of class to use the washroom. It becomes a comment that no one will question and just says "ok go ahead". So when CN has mentioned anything sexually related in her testimony so far, if Leitch further questions her at all to clarify, the judge asks Leitch to move on. Bingo for CN, she avoids answering questions about things she doesn't want to answer.

All MOO.

 

[dar107]

So are we to assume that since this is the last crown witness..he never did have breakfast with Jen? She was never called to testify..or perhaps she was questioned and they felt she did not know anything? Funny how all these other names were brought up in the trial but we never got to hear from them or find out who they were.

This is rumor as I have no link. But as far as I have determined Jen now lives overseas and they cannot compel her to return to Canada to testify. Probky thanking her lucky stars she never married this creep and doing her best to forget she ever laid eyes on him. IMO

 

[brightii]

The dog? Aren't you more curious of how he knew almost every step that happened to the visitor?

MOO

It may have been that the visitor later told MB what had happened, and MB in turn told DM, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[Gibson67]

The dog? Aren't you more curious of how he knew almost every step that happened to the visitor?

MOO

IMO it is someone that he knows that told him the details. But yes silly it stood out to me about the dog lol. I always wondered what happened to poor PEDO.

“Next, very recently, someone went to my Mum’s house in Kleinberg. They rang the doorbell. There was no answer; no dog barking; my Mum was away. The street was quiet, no sign of police. Fifteen minutes later, on the highway (hwy 27) he is pulled over by an unmarked cruiser… It seems like a routine traffic stop until he’s ordered out of his car, and the car is searched! Nothing was found,” Millard writes.

“Then, to top it off, he was asked what he was doing at my Mum’s…. They were watching my Mum’s, and you can’t spot them. I think it’s safe to assume they know you two meet.

he assumes his Mum is being watched but continues to write the letters.

 

[mozzagirl]

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/read-dellen-millards-prison-letters-they-treated-me-as-though-i-were-hannibal-lecter

“The new guard was lecturing me about disobeying a guard’s order because I had stopped to sharpen a pencil when he called for me.
“I stood blankly staring at his eyes, after a minute more of quoting regulations he added, ‘You can stand there quietly with that little smile on your face, it’s not going to do you any good.’
“I was quick to answer, ‘Would you instead prefer I frown quietly or maybe try to talk over your lecture? I’m a little fuzzy on the problem with a quiet smile.’ Those are the little quips that amount to my attitude."

Oh DM, sarcasm when talking to a guard is such a horrible, bad idea. IMO, he talks in his letters about being in segregation and being given "the choice" of moving to another area of the jail. I highly doubt he was given the choice. He was probably so mouthy even in segregation so they thought of moving him to the child molester area to teach him a lesson. The guards are probably so so sick of his attitude and cockiness.

MOO.

 

[mozzagirl]

Does anyone with knowledge of how the jails work know if DM is lying that he would have been kept naked for weeks and been kept in a video-recorded cell, being given just bread, jam and water? That seems like one of his made up ideas in his head IMO, to make him seem more vulnerable to CN so she pities him.

MOO.

 

[matou]

Interesting that DM compares himself to the character Hannibal Lecter on not any other high profile killer, real or fictitious. JMO

 

[brightii]

I'm really expecting that MS will mount a defence and may even take the stand, IMO. Otherwise, IMO, MS will risk being convicted along with DM, who will almost certainly be, IMO.

If MS doesn't offer up more details about TB's truck theft and his murder, and the incineration of TB's body, and the gun used to kill TB, then I don't think we'll ever know what actually happened to TB or why, IMO. These details may not be needed to secure 1st degree murder convictions for both DM and MS, but IMO, they are absolutely necessary if MS is to have even the slightest hope of the jury being merciful towards him when considering their verdict about MS, IMO.

No matter what kind of defence DM would wage, it would be a useless exercise, IMO, as I think his guilt is already proved beyond any reasonable doubt. It will be interesting to see if DM will take the stand, and it wouldn't shock me to hear that he may, as I think he would take great pleasure in having a captive audience for his epic storybook version of events, IMO. I think DM fancies himself as the star of a horror show he created, wrote and directed, and he would want his name on the end credits, IMO. Of course, if DM does take the stand, he will re-cast himself as the main victim of a vicious plot against him, as DM has no concept of reality, IMO, and he has no conscience and therefore has no compassion for his true crime victim, TB, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[don_quixote]

Detailed theory, thanks. BTW "soil from the ditch was tested for blood" - did this detail actually come up in the trial?
The idea that MS struck or choked TB from behind soon after starting the test drive seems plausible. I think TB could have been incapacitated or restrained physically or with the gun prior to dropping off the Yukon driver (now in my mind it makes sense for the Yukon driver to be MS because DM drove the Dodge in the beginning and he would want to keep control of his 'prize'). It also explains why they couldn't take a chance with IT despite having 1 or 2 firearms. MS is so small and weak looking, though. Could DM count on MS's physical ability against any victim (even with the element of surprise and rear-seat advantage)?

However the idea of DM shooting while driving and while trying to navigate to an isolated location is somewhat far-fetched. I think that shooting in close quarters while driving would be very difficult to do unless TB was very groggy from being struck/choked or was partially tied. I think it is more likely that the Dodge was stationary during the shooting (if it was the driver who shot). So I can believe that the shooting occurred in the Dodge on the spur of the moment as TB started to wake/escape/fight. I just think that if it occurred while driving, it would be difficult (not impossible) for the driver to shoot (and this could have ended happier). E.g what a happy turn of events if they had attacked IT instead and he had pummelled and disarmed them.

if TB was choked/struck in the Dodge then these tools (rope/mallet) would need to be in DM's satchel initially (couldn't be hidden in MS's hoody pouch) - so DM hands the satchel to MS at start of drive - "here Mark, hold this for me"

It is also that the Dodge was leading and Yukon following. MS either didn't have a license, or got a G1 recently. If DM gave him some driving time (G1 does not require any driving experience), MS unlikely drove his 50-100 hrs by then to be comfortable driving and navigating unknown roads. Just makes sense for DM to lead.

For IT, interesting how easily impressible they are. Not like every single person in IDF is a master of Krav Maga, etc. Especially if IT worked with diesel engines (mechanic, tank technician/driver?). Although, heavy Russian accent + IDF + "you don't want to ask" joke clearly made them soil their undies. The reality is a sucker punch or blow can be delivered even by a small person successfully.

For the gun,mallet, cord being in the DM's satchel. Seems like he didn't bring it. Evey other witness recalls the bag, but not Mrs. Bosma and Mr. Wayne. MS could hide a sledge hammer in his clown oversized garments.

Shooting while driving - that was not very good shooting. In fact, shooting left handed is much easier from drivers side. And naturally the line of fire for an inexperienced left handed shooter would go from left down to right up (flinch and recoil). I'm not a pilot and not specifically good at hand-to-eye coordination, but I find no problem not looking at the road for 5-7 seconds and doing something else (change CD) if road conditions permit.

If Tim Bosma was incapacitated by a brain injury (blow or asphyxiation), he wouldn't jump straight to action when recovering. May be reaches for the phone? That's why they dealt with the phone only then? They drove by heavy bush, possibly creeks. Dispose of the phone there and nobody would ever know from the video for sure if they were in that video. They didn't, however. DM is not an evil genius. He's evil, but a total .

 

[don_quixote]

Thanks, this is pretty much my exact theory as well. To me this seems most plausible! To me it explains why Tim's phone was found here , and why the perps deviated on their route to the farm. JMO This would explain the MS comment that he F'd up, it explains the short timeframe of the swap at the Yukon S. of Supersucker, it explains MS wanting tape. It explains the 'change of plans' that seemed to occur at the bobcat dealer. It explains GSR on roof of driver side, and the hole in the panel on the door and broken window (I think more than one shot was fired) etc etc etc. It is the simplest solution explaining so much more than other theories that people seem to be pushing. MOO Like many here I think DM and MS are guilty of first degree due to their participation in planning and commission. I think the ONLY way we will ever get to the story of how things played out, will be for MS to take the stand. I don't think DM is capable of hitting the stand, he would come across as the psychopath he appears to be and damage his own defense. MS on the other hand with TD's questioning could be most damaging to DM but this hinges on the above theory that DM alone shot TB. ALL MOO

Thanks. What do you think about the 9:10 and 9:15 RAM spottings? What an unacceptable miss by the expert. Now the defense has a reason to talk about bias. Although, black RAMs are the primary mode of transportation in rural Ontario. What bothers me about it, is if they headed south by S. Sucker at 9:15 and were back at 9:20, why didn't Mr. Bullmann see the truck entering the field? It was such a short time interval, he would be likely in the view when they both entered and exited. Also, I missed the hole in the panel thing. I wonder if you remember the trial day and witness for that.

 

[brightii]

I'm wondering if Pedo got evidence of TB on him from being around TB's body or remains? Maybe DM and CN washed the dog with the hose at Riverside? Is this possible or plausible? I think it is interesting that Pedo seems to have some sort of mysterious unanswered connection to the crime, IMO, as he and his whereabouts are often referred to, IMO.

All MOO.