Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #12

[toom]

As far as I'm concerned far too many of y'all are making the same error in assuming DM and MS aren't just monsters who planned a murder to begin with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they seem rather pleased with themselves still the following day? Wouldn't MS's screw-up be failing to destroy all the copies of the VIN number on the stolen truck? The proverbial excrement didn't really start hitting the fan for them until Crimestoppers was able to positively identify the truck from the VIN provided. IMO they didn't assume nobody was going to look under the tarp when they came into work, they simply assumed that anyone doing so wouldn't implicate them because MS had done his share of the evidence burying properly.

 

[don_quixote]

It wasn't a miss. Here's what I wrote about Pillay's cross examination of the forensic video expert:

.



Five minutes is not a short time interval in a case like this. It can make all the difference between seeing something and not seeing it. Depending on the terrain and POV, one minute could make a difference -- or even 30 seconds.

It casts a shadow on the testimony, though. He takes days to review all the hangar videos and finds nothing. At the same time, does not report two occurrences of a truck that he couldn't reject as being Bosma's within the most important time period, when Tim Bosma's destiny was determined. It is a short interval, nevertheless it is important to consider. If that, indeed, was Bosma's truck @ 9:10 and 9:15 in front of Super Sucker, It means that they arrived 9:16 to the field and departed the field at 9:19, or so. If anything, it would make sense for them at the time to
1. Assess the victim's condition,
2. Find and power off the cell phone,
3. Obscure or remove the victim's body from the front seat and/or tie up.
4. Possibly clean up the truck from outside (remove the shattered window)
5. Possibly change clothing
6. Possibly remove any evidence from the ground

And all that in low light conditions.

I would argue that it is critical for the accused to ensure that everything is in "order", "run the checklist". That was the time to do it, as the whole case depends on it.

It is a very important piece of evidence and ignoring or concealing it does not serve the justice and the society.

I am now thinking of how the defense could spin the evidence to seed doubt in jury's mind, play the devil's advocate. I have to say, there are things to consider.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

As far as I'm concerned far too many of y'all are making the same error in assuming DM and MS aren't just monsters who planned a murder to begin with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they seem rather pleased with themselves still the following day? Wouldn't MS's screw-up be failing to destroy all the copies of the VIN number on the stolen truck? The proverbial excrement didn't really start hitting the fan for them until Crimestoppers was able to positively identify the truck from the VIN provided. IMO they didn't assume nobody was going to look under the tarp when they came into work, they simply assumed that anyone doing so wouldn't implicate them because MS had done his share of the evidence burying properly.

The VIN number thing would have been SS'S job, he was DM's mechanic, not MS.

Also, the truck was ON the tarp, not under/covered by the tarp.

 

[leafs_fan93]

I think the jury has to rely on their judgment when considering the credibility of every person who testifies to determine if the witness appears to be truthful or not, so they'd have to do the same with MS if he does take the stand, IMO.

All MOO.

Agreed, like the judge said to the jury, it's up to them to decide who is believable, and if they are telling the truth.

During her testimony MM testified that when MS said "I f***** up" he was referring to going on the test drive in the first place, and that MS stated that DM murdered TB and he wasn't there when it happened. The absence of MSs DNA combined with no GSR found in the Yukon, I think TD may be able to create a reasonable doubt that his client was there at the time. Proving he didn't know it was going to happen will be more of an uphill climb, which IMO can only be done should he choose to take the stand.

IMO, MM was much more credible on the stand than CN has been thus far. CN hasn't really said too much to incriminate DM - the letters themselves have done all that.

A question for those more familiar with cases with two defendants - seeing that as the trial has gone on, both accused may have different plans going into the defence presenting their case, how does that work? Do they present as one team, or does each defence team have a turn? How is it decided who goes first, and would they have a chance to change their mind about testifying ie. DMs team doesn't call him to testify, then MS is called by his defence team, would DMs team in turn have the chance to call him?

 

[ABro]

It casts a shadow on the testimony, though. He takes days to review all the hangar videos and finds nothing. At the same time, does not report two occurrences of a truck that he couldn't reject as being Bosma's within the most important time period, when Tim Bosma's destiny was determined. It is a short interval, nevertheless it is important to consider. If that, indeed, was Bosma's truck @ 9:10 and 9:15 in front of Super Sucker, It means that they arrived 9:16 to the field and departed the field at 9:19, or so. If anything, it would make sense for them at the time to
1. Assess the victim's condition,
2. Find and power off the cell phone,
3. Obscure or remove the victim's body from the front seat and/or tie up.
4. Possibly clean up the truck from outside (remove the shattered window)
5. Possibly change clothing
6. Possibly remove any evidence from the ground

And all that in low light conditions.

I would argue that it is critical for the accused to ensure that everything is in "order", "run the checklist". That was the time to do it, as the whole case depends on it.

It is a very important piece of evidence and ignoring or concealing it does not serve the justice and the society.

I am now thinking of how the defense could spin the evidence to seed doubt in jury's mind, play the devil's advocate. I have to say, there are things to consider.

Not everything gets put into evidence at a trial. If it did we would spend four years instead of four months in a courtroom. And I think most of us already think four months is too long.

This video was disclosed to the defence, which is exactly how they came to bring it up at trial. NOthing was concealed or hidden.

It will be interesting to see if this video footage makes it into the closing arguments or not.

 

[brightii]

I was reading DM's letters to CN and it is more than striking how self-interested he is in each letter he writes, IMO. It's hard to imagine how CN could have perceived his messages as love letters to be kept like treasures for their sentimental value, IMO. DM clearly and shamelessly reveals that he can use the woman who wrote to him in jail, IMO, just as he plotted out in detail how he intended to use CN, IMO. DM also fantasizes about how he'd take CN around the world sailing, then she would no longer want to return to school to get her education, she'd choose instead to continue sailing along with DM until he decides that they will return home to Canada with her pregnant with his child, IMO. CN's world became narrower, IMO, because of DM who had no intentions of CN broadening her horizons, IMO. DM wanted - needed - complete control over her and others, IMO. There is no concern for CN and her well-being, no care for how she may be suffering because of his actions, no respect for her hopes and plans, IMO. How could CN overlook or not see DM's completely selfish motives? It seems to me that CN is still not seeing DM for what he is, IMO, and nor is CN seeing herself as she was and is for having been with DM, and for having indulged his bizarre fantasies and having assisted him to cover up his crimes, IMO. I guess I'm just puzzled by the behaviours of all involved, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[Wollander77]

I'm really expecting that MS will mount a defence and may even take the stand, IMO. Otherwise, IMO, MS will risk being convicted along with DM, who will almost certainly be, IMO.

If MS doesn't offer up more details about TB's truck theft and his murder, and the incineration of TB's body, and the gun used to kill TB, then I don't think we'll ever know what actually happened to TB or why, IMO. These details may not be needed to secure 1st degree murder convictions for both DM and MS, but IMO, they are absolutely necessary if MS is to have even the slightest hope of the jury being merciful towards him when considering their verdict about MS, IMO.

I'm not sure MS will testify before the jury voluntarily or at TD's behest.

I can think of three possibilities, of many, for the jury and TD to consider:
1) MS is innocent of planning to kill TB and the evidence, or lack thereof, will speak for him
2) MS appears guilty of planning the truck theft and killing TB but the evidence is not substantial enough to prove his involvement
3) MS is guilty and the evidence, in its totality, seems to indicate his willingness to plan and execute TB's murder (my personal position)

In all three scenarios, this late in the trial, I find it more likely TD will try securing a lesser charge for his client through other means than a confession of MS's part in the crime on the stand. I don't think TD will want to to risk the Crown grilling MS on all the finer points of his testimony and potentially revealing his culpability instead. MOO.

If my hunch is wrong, and MS does testify, I'll probably have a difficult time believing his claims. The moment MM suspected his involvement in TB's murder, MS, like DM, shifted blame on the co-accused and denied having anything to do with the actual murder. I don't think MS will change his interpretation of events on the stand. I sense the Crown made the right move in accusing both DM and MS of the same charges. Only the perps know what happened on May 6, but both consented to steal the truck, subdue the owner, burn the victim, and "celebrate" the next morning on a job well done. The Crown may push for the FC or premeditation angle as they tie up loose ends, but IMO, they've made the case for either or both well. It'd be especially poignant if the Crown wraps up its case this week, though - sending a prayer for strength for the Bosma family and friends. MOO.

 

[Prairie_dawg]

Thank you, I'll look that up. A bullet hole is very identifiable. May be a very important piece.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B05DLScRfDmBZk84MzFmVGxhZ1E&usp=drive_web
This is billandrews storage of the inside truck photos, still looking for the testimony of the chipped moulding and tissue found...

 

[brightii]

I'm not sure MS will testify before the jury voluntarily or at TD's behest.

I can think of three possibilities, of many, for the jury and TD to consider:
1) MS is innocent of planning to kill TB and the evidence, or lack thereof, will speak for him
2) MS appears guilty of planning the truck theft and killing TB but the evidence is not substantial enough to prove his involvement
3) MS is guilty and the evidence, in its totality, seems to indicate his willingness to plan and execute TB's murder (my personal position)

In all three scenarios, this late in the trial, I find it more likely TD will secure a lesser charge for his client through other means than a confession of MS's part in the crime on the stand. I'm not sure TD will want to to risk the Crown grilling MS on all the finer points of his testimony and potentially revealing his culpability instead. MOO.

If my hunch is wrong, and MS does testify, I'll probably have a difficult time believing his claims. The moment MM suspected his involvement in TB's murder, MS, like DM, shifted blame on the co-accused and denied having anything to do with the actual murder. I don't think MS will change his interpretation of events on the stand. I sense the Crown made the right move in accusing both DM and MS of the same charges. Only the perps know what happened on May 6, but both consented to steal the truck, subdue the owner, burn the victim, and "celebrate" the next morning on a job well done. The Crown may push for the FC or premeditation angle as they tie up loose ends, but IMO, they've made the case for either or both aptly. It'd be especially poignant if the Crown wraps up its case this week, though - sending a prayer for strength for the Bosma family and friends. MOO.

Great post! I must agree with your reasoning although I do hope to hear MS's version of events, but I do realize that does seem unlikely, IMO. I have a hard time knowing what to believe as I think almost every witness lied and/or withheld knowledge to protect either DM or MS, and/or themselves. I wish someone with a strong conscience would just spare TB's family even more misery, and all those wondering what the truth is, as we are, and finally tell the truth, IMO. Who knows if MS did tell the whole unbridled truth, it could just set him free? Maybe he would still get jailed for life, but if he doesn't tell the truth he'll always be a prisoner and will never again know true freedom or peace of mind, IMO.

bbm Yes, that indeed would be good and I add my prayers too.

All MOO.

 

[Inspector_North]

I'm not sure MS will testify before the jury voluntarily or at TD's behest.

I can think of three possibilities, of many, for the jury and TD to consider:
1) MS is innocent of planning to kill TB and the evidence, or lack thereof, will speak for him
2) MS appears guilty of planning the truck theft and killing TB but the evidence is not substantial enough to prove his involvement
3) MS is guilty and the evidence, in its totality, seems to indicate his willingness to plan and execute TB's murder (my personal position)

In all three scenarios, this late in the trial, I find it more likely TD will try securing a lesser charge for his client through other means than a confession of MS's part in the crime on the stand. I don't think TD will want to to risk the Crown grilling MS on all the finer points of his testimony and potentially revealing his culpability instead. MOO.

If my hunch is wrong, and MS does testify, I'll probably have a difficult time believing his claims. The moment MM suspected his involvement in TB's murder, MS, like DM, shifted blame on the co-accused and denied having anything to do with the actual murder. I don't think MS will change his interpretation of events on the stand. I sense the Crown made the right move in accusing both DM and MS of the same charges. Only the perps know what happened on May 6, but both consented to steal the truck, subdue the owner, burn the victim, and "celebrate" the next morning on a job well done. The Crown may push for the FC or premeditation angle as they tie up loose ends, but IMO, they've made the case for either or both well. It'd be especially poignant if the Crown wraps up its case this week, though - sending a prayer for strength for the Bosma family and friends. MOO.

He would subject himself to crown cross examination and to DM's defence team. He would need to be ready for at least 7 days of cross examination. This is based on how long John Rosen questioned KH.

I never say never, but IMO very unlikely.

 

[brightii]

It's always an honourable act to refuse to turn a blind eye when we see injustice wherever it occurs, IMO.

mozzagirl :loveyou:

All MOO.

 

[Prairie_dawg]

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B05DLScRfDmBZk84MzFmVGxhZ1E&usp=drive_web
This is billandrews storage of the inside truck photos, still looking for the testimony of the chipped moulding and tissue found...

Sorry I am quoting my own post but I found the images on exhibit 89 photo 79 and 80

 

[ArianeEmory]

“Have your cover stories planned and ready. Romance is always a good one. I don’t mind you being publicly flirtacious if it’s in my favor. Just so long as all of him stays on the outside of you. I leave it to you to plan. But do plan it. Don’t wing it. "Well this explains CN testimony"jmo

I think contextually this referred to CN pretending to be having a romance with AM, so she had some plausible excuse to be seen with him (while she was ostensibly trying to get him to change his testimony).

This isn't said in defense of DM or CN. They're both twisted.

 

[hellkat2]

At this point in the trial

I am 100% sure that shooting TB in the truck was unplanned.
I am 50% sure that DM pulled the trigger. This is based on his letters, since they seem to be for CN's eyes only
I am 80% sure that MS pulled the trigger. This based on how the "F%^$%% up" comments align, both BD's testimony and DM's letters.

There is much evidence of both being at the test drive and at the hanger using the Eliminator. So both are guilty of many things. There is also some evidence that the planning for this mission was different than other missions we heard about.
1) No Lookouts
2) Items planned for the mission, Generator, gloves, tape, and change of clothes.

There is MM's testimony of the mood in the Yukon on the morning of the 7th. Still struggling with this one.

Hopefully we hear something that adds to the mission planning that shows it was a murder mission. MS sending pictures of fireside furniture and sausage frying just before the mission is still very troubling to me.

Because the location TB was shot (in the truck), and that I believe it was unplanned to shoot him there, I am struggling with robbery or planned murder. I didn't want to be here at this point in the trial. But that's me, and my belief in knowing truth over seeing two low life's like DM and MS get worse case guess based on their creepy and disgusting world.

If I allow my emotions to weigh in, both are 100% guilty of first degree.

MOO

Agreed for the most part. But....there could have been a third person. IMO

 

[Claroon]

I was reading DM's letters to CN and it is more than striking how self-interested he is in each letter he writes, IMO. It's hard to imagine how CN could have perceived his messages as love letters to be kept like treasures for their sentimental value, IMO. DM clearly and shamelessly reveals that he can use the woman who wrote to him in jail, IMO, just as he plotted out in detail how he intended to use CN, IMO. DM also fantasizes about how he'd take CN around the world sailing, then she would no longer want to return to school to get her education, she'd choose instead to continue sailing along with DM until he decides that they will return home to Canada with her pregnant with his child, IMO. CN's world became narrower, IMO, because of DM who had no intentions of CN broadening her horizons, IMO. DM wanted - needed - complete control over her and others, IMO. There is no concern for CN and her well-being, no care for how she may be suffering because of his actions, no respect for her hopes and plans, IMO. How could CN overlook or not see DM's completely selfish motives? It seems to me that CN is still not seeing DM for what he is, IMO, and nor is CN seeing herself as she was and is for having been with DM, and for having indulged his bizarre fantasies and having assisted him to cover up his crimes, IMO. I guess I'm just puzzled by the behaviours of all involved, IMO.

All MOO.

Very insightful. So she is fortunate to be unleashed from him, albeit in a difficult way. Yes, no apology to her, I mean, it's his fault she's arrested. IMO Traits of a sociopath seeing women as conquests.

 

[hellkat2]

Because he's feeding her a line of crap. He's a poor rich kid that got tied up with a drug addict. Now he's in jail and has realized his undying love for her. And can you do a couple of felonies for me?

How did the letters get smuggled out by his mother? They have a glass between them don't they? Those letters if they went the regular route would have been screened by guards and given straight to the authorities. So maybe LE was setting a trap for them by allowing them to "sneak" these letters back and forth. Maybe someone......like MB his mommy was working for LE by the time she was visiting sonny boy in prison.

 

[hellkat2]

Im thinking that the wonders are "how did guards NOT find CN'S letters in DM'S cell"
I'm not finding the part of DM's letter on AC's tweets, but from what DM said, it sounded like he was reading CN's letters through the glass. The tweet said something along the line of DM reading them quickly and thoughts of the letters made him happy. Then the CN pics and paw printed paper was given to him to keep.
CN stated she didn't get any of her letters back from MB, so I'm assuming DM read the letters through the glass, MB took them home afterwards. Reason why CN didn't get them back.

Maybe MB was working for LE by then and was giving all of CN's letters to LE. Stranger things can happen. I don't think that they could get away with this during a prison visit.

 

[hellkat2]

Yeahs, reputation for giving oral sex while her boyfriend drives. My bet is she said it for attention, for the male jurors. All she needs is one....

CN had to come up with something that was offensive and make them not want to go there. So hence the sex act......I was too occupied to see evil, speak evil or say evil. And it worked perfectly cuz questions like....did you smell anything unusual? Gun powder residue, smoke, cleaner, fresh shower smell.... anything that you wouldn't ordinarily smell while you were down there?

 

[hellkat2]

This theory could explain why the lawyer changed occurred and why they waited so long to go to trial.... but wouldn't the lawyer have been charged? And why wasn't DM charged for communicating with CN if she was on his do-not-contact? seems fishy.

Maybe LE gave them all some bait and they took it. Hence the letter writing. Mommy might have been working for LE by then.

 

[Inspector_North]

Maybe MB was working for LE by then and was giving all of CN's letters to LE. Stranger things can happen. I don't think that they could get away with this during a prison visit.

Really!? There are more things smuggled in and out of prisons than the Mexican border. A lot more realistic that they were either filtered through someone to MB, or directly to MB than many of the conspiracy theories I've heard here.

MOO