Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #12

[EspressoBean]

The reverse projection photogrammetry using the Yukon was fascinating to watch. Who would have thought the Hamilton police did such CSI-type stuff?

And, as I said, I'm very curious to see if we hear more about this.

I was also amazed and had used the same CSI reference when talking about that day of testimony!
It has definitely seemed like they worked hard in this investigation to get all of the information available and prove it from every angle.

 

[Georgeo]

There has to be some reason the hoses and running of water for ten hours came into evidence. After the front seats were taken out of the TB's truck (May 7th), did DM take them to Riverside and try and wash them? If that was the case, he washed the seats in the area where he told JV to run the water for hours to wash away blood evidence. Could it be TB was shot when they stopped near the Bobcat dealership and they put him in the bed of his truck, so he did not lose a lot of blood on the truck seat, then DM thinking he could wash the seat?

Perhaps this is where the bucket/can and laundry detergent seen in the back area of the Yukon came into play. Could this also explain the questioning of JV on the stand about the one bathroom at Riverside (which was vacant) and about DM having keys? DM did not have a water hose for washing the seat, perhaps the outside water was shut off and he had no key/no access, didn't know where the main turn on was inside the building to turn the water on, therefore he used the vacant apartment bathroom to fill the bucket with water to wash the seats with. If this was the case, DM was not able to remove TB's blood from the seat so he took them out to the farm to burn them instead. If not the seats, what could DM have washed at Riverside on the lawn where water ran for hours?

It was Friday, May 9th, sometime in the morning when DM told JV to run the water. So when could DM have tried to wash the seats or something on the lawn at Riverside? Obviously prior to the morning of May 9th.
- May 8th, DM's phone pinged in Etobicoke at 2:59am. Was DM travelling to the farmland with TB's truck seats after failed attempt of washing blood stains from them?
- 5:42am DM's cell phone pinged in Milton. (DM had also text SS at 5:42am asking him where the power washer was.)
- Then around 6:00am the farmer saw a plume of smoke at the farmland.
- On May 9th, DM's cell phone pinged near the farm land at 5:49pm and MS's ping there also at 4:47pm. Were they picking up what was left of the burnt seats?
- At 6:56pm DM's red Dodge arrived at hangar according to video surveillance. DM and MS load TB's truck and seat frames put into trailer?
- At 9:06pm MS's cell phone pings in Oakville, 9:38pm DM's cell phone pings in Oakville. DM drove MS home?
- 9:53pm DM sends CN a text saying he is at her place to pick her up. DM and CN go to Kleinberg. ALL MOO.

The jury also heard again about hoses that were found at a property Millard owned at Riverside Drive in Toronto. Court has heard that the hoses were left running in the back yard for 10 hours at Millard's behest.

The Crown has not presented any theory as to why that was done, or how it relates to the case. Millard's legal team has said Millard wanted to build a deck at the back of the property, and this was done to see how the water would "pond" in the area.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...llen-millard-s-wealth-again-a-focus-1.3512310

they have to come back to the hoses running for 10 hours. No use mentioning it and not concluding that train of thought. Your timeline seems very plausible. Too bad seats couldn't fit into eliminator to burn away evidence.

 

[Elisabeth]

I was using DM's definition from his letters. And I not even sure if he was speaking about first degree murder. But it sure sounded like DM was afraid of a murder charge due to AM's statement that DM and MS were planning a robbery of TB's truck.

Thanks for confirming his definition is wrong, for murder one at least. The Canadian definition has been posted many times, and I am trying to figure out which nature of first degree the crown will be proving. There is a little of all them up to this point.

- was planned and deliberate
- while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping and forcible confinement
- while committing intimidation.

MOO

I posted this yesterday (below). I don't believe intimidation is relevant here. What do others think?


The intimidation is very specific and it is about intimidating a justice system participant or journalist.

Intimidation

(6.2) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of a person, murder is first degree murder when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under section 423.1.



Intimidation of a justice system participant or a journalist

• 423.1 (1) No person shall, without lawful authority, engage in any conduct with the intent to provoke a state of fear in
  • (a) a group of persons or the general public in order to impede the administration of criminal justice;
  • (b) a justice system participant in order to impede him or her in the performance of his or her duties; or
  • (c) a journalist in order to impede him or her in the transmission to the public of information in relation to a criminal organization.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...-20150723.html

 

[mimimic]

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...y-treated-me-as-though-i-were-hannibal-lecter


BBM
- I don't believe they've introduced the Sept 16th letter but I wonder if DM got access to mind-altering substances. Barton St. jail has had 6 overdose deaths since 2012 so drugs are coming in.
- Curious to know DM's thoughts now on whether anything was missed by forensics.
- Setting up test drive via burner phone, hiding his own vehicle and going at night/barely looking over truck = indications of intent to buy? Sure Melon.
- I think DM is happy AM moved the stuff, otherwise police would have the gun right now. I wish we had more clarity on who DM told about the toolbox. According to MH, he got it from DM and didn't know what was inside. According to AM, MS requested the drugs from the house and what was given to MH. According to MS's crew, he neither wanted nor was expecting the gun.
- Amazing how easy it is for DM to express his (so called) feelings about his buddies, but it takes facing life in prison to be able to say it to his longtime girlfriend.

I wouldn't be surprised if down the road, DM tries to write his own book about the case like OJ's If I Did It.

Title : The Truth - Dellen's not tellen

 

[ABro]

I posted this yesterday (below). I don't believe intimidation is relevant here. What do others think?


The intimidation is very specific and it is about intimidating a justice system participant or journalist.

Intimidation

(6.2) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of a person, murder is first degree murder when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under section 423.1.



Intimidation of a justice system participant or a journalist

• 423.1 (1) No person shall, without lawful authority, engage in any conduct with the intent to provoke a state of fear in
  • (a) a group of persons or the general public in order to impede the administration of criminal justice;
  • (b) a justice system participant in order to impede him or her in the performance of his or her duties; or
  • (c) a journalist in order to impede him or her in the transmission to the public of information in relation to a criminal organization.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...-20150723.html

I think that all these issues will be addressed in closing arguments and the judge's instructions to the jury without the rampant misinformation present online. And please, don't think my comment is directed at you because it most definitely is not.

 

[hellkat2]

Yes! Without their permission.

Besides, I don't see "how" as being important to the conviction the crown is seeking at this time. They have the letters, and they have been acknowledged by DM's team in a statement of fact that DM wrote and sent them.

I am definitely not a fan of MB, but her working with LE is pure fantasy.

If the "how" is important, we will hear about it. CN has left a vacant 007 spot if anyone is interested.
MOO

Why would you think that MB would be any different than the rest? They are all trying to save themselves now.

 

[Inspector_North]

I posted this yesterday (below). I don't believe intimidation is relevant here. What do others think?

Thank you. So that leaves

- was planned and deliberate
- while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping and forcible confinement

I am not sure how they would prove forcible confinement if the Opening Statement indicated that Tim was shot within minutes of leaving his driveway? We have seen some evidence that suggests it was planned murder, but more that it was a planned theft. Nothing yet that suggests forcible confinement, IMO.

I guess the Jury will weigh the direct evidence of a planned murder along with all the indirect, like the purchase of a gun, etc. to conclude the robbery was also a planned murder.

MOO

 

[mimimic]

There's been considerable debate on here about premeditation. If DM was originally charged with forcible confinement which was later upgraded to first degree murder when TB remains were found. wouldn't it follow then that the First degree murder charge was based on forcible confinement not premeditation? imo

...premeditated forcible confinement (?) once the evidence started to roll in...?

 

[Inspector_North]

Why would you think that MB would be any different than the rest? They are all trying to save themselves now.

Uh? I was responding to a post that MB may be working for LE. LOL! If she did she would be different from the rest, and I was disagreeing with that wild speculation. I am not disputing that she is the same as the rest.
MOO

 

[hellkat2]

If he were truly remorseful, I don't know how he could put the Bosmas through this!

And they could have called 911.

 

[hellkat2]

Not sure. Someone passed a link to the picture, and I noticed she (blonde) was cut in the CTV version. Maybe I should have done the same. From other pictures I have seen, she is in them, she must be a long time friend. Just a guess.
MOO

It could be MB. IMO

 

[JuneBug67]

Not necessarily IMO. The idea of forcible confinement applied prior to the knowledge that Bosma was deceased. The police had enough evidence to conclude that Millard was involved in Bosma's disappearance, and from that they were able to charge Millard with forcibly confining Bosma. It was possible that Bosma was alive but tied up somewhere.

However, once it became known that Bosma was murdered, the idea of forcible confinement did not necessarily apply without further evidence to prove that.

IMO the Crown has presented evidence to suggest both premeditation and forcible confinement. As Staff Sergeant Kavanagh stated, Mr. Bosma willingly entered his truck, but he was not allowed to leave. He was confined inside the truck and shot there. Add all the premeditation evidence and you have a pretty strong case for first degree murderer against both DM and MS.

MOO

The murder charge was explicitly linked to the forcible confinement in the announcement of the discovery of Tim and the upgraded charges. The officer made that clear just after 7:30 in this clip:


[video=youtu;fk1Zkrxs348]http://youtu.be/fk1Zkrxs348[/video]

As the investigation developed they have also been able to make a case for premeditation. It will be interesting to hear if and how the jury is instructed with reagard to finding forcible confinement. The above clip seems to makes a case for it surprisingly broadly.

 

[mimimic]

Yes you can. The law allows you to accept some parts of a witness' testimony but not all.

This is just like real life. I'm sure you've lied. That doesn't mean you can never again be trusted to speak the truth.

Glad to hear that.

 

[Icanseeyou]

I'm wondering about proceeds of crime. Would they seize any of his money, and hold it in trust?
Proceeds of Crime Defined Edit
Section 462.3 defines Proceeds of Crime as:

“proceeds of crime” means any property, benefit or advantage, within or outside Canada, obtained or derived directly or indirectly as a result of

(a) the commission in Canada of a designated offence, or

(b) an act or omission anywhere that, if it had occurred in Canada, would have constituted a designated offence.

 

[Sphinx]

My thoughts are along that line too ....... DM was to do the driving and MS was to shoot the victim in the back of the head with mushroom-fragmenting-zombie ammo that does not exit the body (no mess) .... and either the headrest was in the way and he tried it from the left rear seat and missed or wounded TB and then had to take several more shots which broke the window and caused wounds that bled onto the seats and carpets .... or he first tried to shoot thru the foam padded headrest which would have slowed the bullet right down and it only caused injuries at first.

That would also concur with DM telling CN he had to clean up Mark's Mess ..... it would certainly be an F-Up by MS because they ended up having to work all night removing seats and carpets and cleaning up blood from the interior instead of just parking the truck somewhere or send it to the paint shop or whatever ...... and because of all that extra work and the time involved the partly stripped truck was still sitting on a tarp in the hangar to be seen and noticed by the employee who called crime stoppers.

I think Mark's Mess was the big F-Up ..... there is no way they anticipated or planned to contaminate the interior like that ..... it fits with the whole zombie-ammo purpose .... a small 9mm entrance wound and no exit wounds and the truck interior could remain intact.

So maybe "genius" MS loaded the wrong ammo in the gun, and because it was not a zombie-ammo they had the mess in the truck. IMO

 

[hellkat2]

Yes! Without their permission.

Besides, I don't see "how" as being important to the conviction the crown is seeking at this time. They have the letters, and they have been acknowledged by DM's team in a statement of fact that DM wrote and sent them.

I am definitely not a fan of MB, but her working with LE is pure fantasy.

If the "how" is important, we will hear about it. CN has left a vacant 007 spot if anyone is interested.
MOO

Oh you don't think they are working with LE? Whether they hostile or non-hostile witnesses ...they are all working with LE and by that I mean police and lawyers. You don't think MB is doing what she can to protect herself from being dragged in any further?

 

[billandrew]

The murder charge was explicitly linked to the forcible confinement in the announcement of the discovery of Tim and the upgraded charges. The officer made that clear just after 7:30 in this clip:


[video=youtu;fk1Zkrxs348]http://youtu.be/fk1Zkrxs348[/video]

As the investigation developed they have also been able to make a case for premeditation. It will be interesting to hear if and how the jury is instructed with reagard to finding forcible confinement. The above clip seems to makes a case for it surprisingly broadly.

That's the exact quote I was referencing, and IMO it is a strong case for forcible confinement: "Mr. Bosma went on a test drive with two males, so he entered that vehicle of his own free will, but he was not allowed to leave, and therefore forcible confinement is a proper charge."

 

[Typhoo1961]

To recap what is known or understood based on information available and discussed in previous threads:
CN has testified that they were together 2010ish and they were exclusive.
From what is known, DM was engaged in May 2011 but it is understood that the engagement was called off not long after this but they remained friends. At the time of WM's death, DM was not engaged but his ex-fiance did come to the house. DM was also still texting with her and seeing her at the time of TB's murder.
DM was also believed to have an intimate relationship with LB before her murder July 2012.
Another witness has testified that she was also intimate with DM during that time.
I'm pretty doubtful that CN was unaware of his other relationships. She may be lying about her understanding about their relationship and when it began. moo

He was also hitting up on MM.

 

[Tiggertoo]

I just wonder why DM and MS haven't laid the blame on each other yet....or maybe they have and we will be hearing about that soon. Particularly after those letters I would think MS would be trying to cut a deal unless he really was the shooter.

 

[Gibson67]

It could be MB. IMO

it is a close fb friend I have seen her page..she dyed her hair from brown in this photo