Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #12

[jash]

And those are the only ones that we have *heard* about, he was prob hitting on all of his friends' various girlfriends, among others. It doesn't surprise me that CN thought she was exclusive. She doesn't seem the brightest star in the sky. mho.

BBM - Don't you mean the "smartest crayon in the box"?

Edit to clarify I'm quoting CN's assessment of MM.

 

[don_quixote]

When considering forcible confinement, think comparatively of it being very similar to an abduction of a child.

Example: A paedophile approaches a child and offers to give the child a ride home in their vehicle. But the perv's has no plan of taking the child home. Instead the perv is going to sexually assault the child. The child gets into the perv's vehicle believing and trusting in the perv that they will be taken home unharmed. The perv does not take the child home and sexually assaults the child. The perv faces a charge of abduction....and sexual assault.

In TB's case, he got into his truck with DM and MS with the assumption they were going on a test drive hoping to sell his truck. DM and MS knew their intent was not to buy TB's truck, but to steal it. The charge is forcible confinement....

Which brings me to ponder why MS was not also charged with FC. His intention of going with DM was to help DM steal TB's truck. BUT perhaps MS told DM he would only assist DM in the theft by driving the Yukon only. Any of the "dirty" work (restraining or physical force) MS said he wanted no part of it. This is why I believe DM was charged with FC, because DM was alone with TB in his truck, DM wouldn't or didn't allow him to leave before shooting him.

IMO I do think the murder happened near the Bobcat dealership and that would go to prove MS wasn't in the truck when TB was shot, as MS was tailing behind in the Yukon when the two bangs were heard on the video. IIRC the two bangs were heard as both trucks were moving and came into camera range. MS is charged with murder because DM and MS planned the theft together and the outcome ended up in murder.

For the purposes of this report, the term "forcible confinement" also includes the offence of "kidnapping".2 Kidnapping is similar to forcible confinement in that a person is held against their will, but it also involves the act of transporting the victim from one place to another. It is not possible to distinguish between these two offences from the data reported by police services; however, information from adult criminal courts shows the vast majority (94%) to be forcible confinement.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2009001/article/10781-eng.htm

Which also brings me to another theory...if TB was shot near the Bobcat dealership, they then moved TB into the bed of his truck (blood found there using red lights). TB didn't lose a large amount of blood on the passenger seat, leaving DM thinking he could wash the blood from the seat at Riverside (after the seats were removed). Explains why the bucket and detergent found in the back of the Yukon, the questioning of the of JV re: keys for Riverside and the interest in bathroom in apartment #2.

I can see MS taking the stand in his own defence and I can almost see MS getting second degree IF he takes the stand and tells his version of what happened that horrific night TB was murdered.

ALL MOO.

Notice the "kidnapping and forcible confinement" in (e). At this point the negotiation is over. The outcomes are that the jury will or will not find them guilty of 1st degree. Premediation, anything else is negligible. IIRC, car theft with the owner/operator inside is automatically a forcible confinement event. And at that point, whether the death was accidental or not, it does not matter anymore. It is 1st degree.
(5) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder in respect of a person when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under one of the following sections:

• (a) section 76 (hijacking an aircraft);
  
• (b) section 271 (sexual assault);
  
  
• (c) section 272 (sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm);
  
• (d) section 273 (aggravated sexual assault);
  
  
• (e) section 279 (kidnapping and forcible confinement); or
  
  
• (f) section 279.1 (hostage taking).
  

 

[jash]

Just a quick thought and maybe it was covered some where in another thread. But what ever happened to DM s man purse. SB said he had it on before the test drive. In the videoin the early morning at the hanger he is wearing it. Was there no blood evidence on it? Was it recovered? Even washing machines have difficulty removing those kind of stains.

It was recovered.

Pillay also asked about a canvas Diesel bag that was seized from Millard's home. Court heard the bag was found in a washing machine.
...

Bosma's DNA was not found on the bag seized from Millard's home, but Millard's DNA could not be excluded from the DNA found on the bag. A small stain of blood was also detected, but DNA comparison was not possible.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...d-for-gun-at-smich-house-seize-ipad-1.3471003

 

[mimimic]

Noudga testified that after dropping off the trailer in Kleinburg she and DM went straight to the Waterloo hangar. However, I think she's lying and they actually went somewhere else, such as Riverside, first. Here are some events from the timeline:

• Around 11:34pm (May 9) MB texted, "Dellen... what's happening? You got me concerned..." (Showing they had just left Kleinburg IMO)
• DM's phone pinged in Milton at 1:30am. (En route to the hangar IMO)
• CN's phone pinged in Milton at 3:43am. (En route back to Toronto IMO)
• They met Hagerman in Etobicoke sometime after 4am.
• They went back to Maple Gate and slept there.
• DM arrived back at the hangar for a meeting around 7:30am.

It takes an hour to drive to the hangar from Kleinburg, so they should have arrived at the hangar around 12:30am according to Noudga's testimony. However, DM's phone pinged in Milton at 1:30am. IMO this is when they were en route to the hangar, so they should have actually arrived there around 2am. If this is right, then there is a 1.5 hour gap in Noudga's testimony.

What they would have done during this time is anybody's guess, but one possibility is that they dumped ashes in the backyard of Riverside. To explain how this might have happened, rewind to earlier in the day when DM was at the farm with Smich. While there, he called SS and found out about the Crimestoppers call, which sent him into emergency "retooling for stormy weather" mode: clean out the incinerator (in his rush he was not thorough) and put the ashes in the truck (no time to dump them anywhere at the farm), speed back to the hangar to get TB's truck in the trailer, drop off Smich, pick up Noudga, ditch the trailer in Kleinburg, etc. By that point, he still had the ashes. Where was a discrete place to dump them off quickly (and possibly have a little escapade with Noudga)? Riverside.

From there, they headed to the hangar for 2am and switched the red pickup for the Yukon, then drove to the farm to move the incinerator. Then around 3:20am they left the farm to head back to Etobicoke to give Hagerman the toolbox.

#34 10:27 on Snooper's twitter roll, the last day of the Trial. Sorry don't know how to quote a closed thread.(Day 42 WS) Almost seems like a longer time gap - i would be generous here but i would say almost 2 plus hours. I don't know how far Maplegate is from MB's

 

[Errrr]

One detail about the beginning of the test drive is the swerve as they were leaving the drive way. Is that when MS started strangling Tim Bosma and Tim grabbed and pulled on the wheel? DM is an experienced driver, and he was just driving off in a new vehicle, on a private driveway. What could be the other reason to swerve?


Another Q is that the cremation process even in stationary crematoriums does not disintegrate bones. The bones found in the incinerator were not removed due to sloppy job. There must be other bones. Where are they? Likewise, Laura Babcock's bones might be burried some place on the farm. The police is not saying whether they found the body or not. They'll have to disclose what they have regardless. Could it be that they found female bones but can't link them to Laura with certainty. Is that why the excavator was out in the swamp?

You can't tell one persons ashes from another and that includes bones. Those bones are just minerals barely held together. Once you smash them up they are just ashes too. If it weren't for the bones I doubt forensics could have determined the source of the ashes. DM really over-sweated that evidence.

 

[don_quixote]

#34 10:27 on Snooper's twitter roll, the last day of the Trial. Sorry don't know how to quote a closed thread.(Day 42 WS) Almost seems like a longer time gap - i would be generous here but i would say almost 2 plus hours. I don't know how far Maplegate is from MB's

Or, they hung out at the farm for a couple of hours cleaning out the incinerator, hiding the bones.

 

[jash]

IMO, Noudga wanted to cooperate with police, but her offer was rejected. Accessory to murder is a life sentence with no parole for 7 years. She wanted to get out of this and “betray” Millard. I find this the most likely explanation for the fact that she kept the DVR and the letters. Otherwise, it's just plain stupid.

<snipped for space>

Your post reminded me of how the examination ended on Friday. The Crown seemed to be implying that CN's own notes may show that she was keeping the letters to protect herself. Hope we hear more tomorrow morning.

Lisa Hepfner &#8207;@HefCHCHNews 2m2 minutes ago
Did you think holding on to them could protect you? No. Were you concerned about what Millard would do?

molly hayes &#8207;@mollyhayes 2m2 minutes ago
Leitch asks if keeping them could protect her in any way. she says no. He asks if she wants to refresh her memory from writings. #Bosma

molly hayes &#8207;@mollyhayes 2m2 minutes ago
Then there is some confusion and he says he's moving on. #Bosma

 

[Typhoo1961]

BBM - Don't you mean the "smartest crayon in the box"?

A few sandwiches short of a picnic.

 

[don_quixote]

Your post reminded me of how the examination ended on Friday. The Crown seemed to be implying that CN's own notes may show that she was keeping the letters to protect herself. Hope we hear more tomorrow morning.

That adds up. And we'll find out in her trial. Hopefully, it will be covered by WS.

 

[mimimic]

Or, they hung out at the farm for a couple of hours cleaning out the incinerator, hiding the bones.

Ye. Although I mean bef driving driving farm and Hanger. Pick up CN 9:5ish to 10:30. Their drive supposed drive time is off. The Stayed in The t.o. End trying to get ahold of MH (unsuccessfully at this point in time) and who know what else they where up to before coming to Waterloo end. Sorry typing on phone now . Not easy

 

[mimimic]

1:00 is when the pinged in Milton I think

Ye. Although I mean bef driving driving farm and Hanger. Pick up CN 9:5ish to 10:30. Their drive supposed drive time is off. The Stayed in The t.o. End trying to get ahold of MH (unsuccessfully at this point in time) and who know what else they where up to before coming to Waterloo end. Sorry typing on phone now . Not easy

 

[NashBridges2]

For those of you who worry the about having enough evidence to convict on first degree, I googled canadian law, kidnapping and confinement. After reading this, I'm certain the crown can and hhas proven the murder was committed during kidnapping/confinement. Especially after reading point #5!

1.

For the offence of kidnapping, the crown must prove that the accused took the victim from one place to another without consent. [2] This is the key distinction between confinement and kidnapping. Confinement is the deprivation of a person's liberty to move, while kidnapping is the moving of a person. All kidnappings are confinements but not all confinements are kidnapping.[3]

A person who voluntarily enters into a car, but is then denied the ability to leave will usually make out the offence.[4]

Where consent was obtained by fraud, deceit, or trickery, then the consent is not valid.[5]

There must be proven that there was at least a minimal deprivation of the victim's freedom. [6]

The duration of the confinement does not need to be lengthy. A "significant" period of time where the victim is "coercively restrained or directed contrary to her wishes, so that she could not move about according to her own inclination and desire" will be sufficient.[7]

 

[Melzack]

I'm confused about one thing and I'm hoping someone can clarify it for me. Smich's BF Brandin said that he saw MS and MM leave DM's Yukon and that MS ran in the house in a panick. Didn't MM testify that they were happy and celebrating??

 

[swedie]

For those of you who worry the about having enough evidence to convict on first degree, I googled canadian law, kidnapping and confinement. After reading this, I'm certain the crown can and hhas proven the murder was committed during kidnapping/confinement. Especially after reading point #5!

1.

For the offence of kidnapping, the crown must prove that the accused took the victim from one place to another without consent. [2] This is the key distinction between confinement and kidnapping. Confinement is the deprivation of a person's liberty to move, while kidnapping is the moving of a person. All kidnappings are confinements but not all confinements are kidnapping.[3]

A person who voluntarily enters into a car, but is then denied the ability to leave will usually make out the offence.[4]

Where consent was obtained by fraud, deceit, or trickery, then the consent is not valid.[5]

There must be proven that there was at least a minimal deprivation of the victim's freedom. [6]

The duration of the confinement does not need to be lengthy. A "significant" period of time where the victim is "coercively restrained or directed contrary to her wishes, so that she could not move about according to her own inclination and desire" will be sufficient.[7]

This is pretty much what I said in my post #459. "When considering forcible confinement, think comparatively of it being very similar to an abduction of a child." Thank you! Think comparatively...kidnapping and forcible confinement. These sum TB's situation up perfectly: "There must be proven that there was at least a minimal deprivation of the victim's freedom." A person who voluntarily enters into a car, but is then denied the ability to leave will usually make out the offence.

The judge will give precise definitions to the jurors on premeditation, the different degrees of murder and forcible confinement. I don't think we should worry or fear these two &%$#*%@$ getting off. MOO.

 

[swedie]

I'm confused about one thing and I'm hoping someone can clarify it for me. Smich's BF Brandin said that he saw MS and MM leave DM's Yukon and that MS ran in the house in a panick. Didn't MM testify that they were happy and celebrating??

MM said DM and MS were happy and celebrating the morning of May 7th, when they picked her up shortly before 8am. May 9th, around 9-9:30pm is when BD saw DM drop off MS and he ran past him into the apartment building not speaking. MM then went into the apartment and came out with a bag of weed and told BD to get the H$LL out of there. HTH and MOO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

MM said DM and MS were happy and celebrating the morning of May 7th, when they picked her up shortly before 8am. May 9th, around 9-9:30pm is when BD saw DM drop off MS and he ran past him into the apartment building not speaking. MM then went into the apartment and came out with a bag of weed and told BD to get the H$LL out of there. HTH and MOO.

bbm

pm or am?

 

[Arnie M]

Either CN and DM have the same taste in bedding, or Mother Rabbit allowed CN take some keepsakes from Maplegate.

I noticed the fur-looking throw in DM's room looks very similar to what was on CN's bed when police executed their warrant.

Links:
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...tle-but-profound-memory-lapses-at-bosma-trial
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-trial-blood-spatter-1.3473908

.
.
Good catch .... yes they look the same to me ...... and they look like faux seal skin colors .... rather ironic considering DM's parents were devout anti-seal-hunt protestors around 1985

https://www.google.ca/search?q=seal...WJdh4KHS94BoMQsAQIIg&biw=1340&bih=868&dpr=0.9

.

 

[Claroon]

I must be in denial of the evil that walks amongst us but I cannot accept that they were out to murder TB. It just makes no sense. It would be easier to leave him on the side of the road and take off with his truck.

Maybe one day you'll go visit DM and ask him what was going through his mind? The only sense it makes for me is it was practice for body elimination service at $100,000 a body. IMO

 

[Maple1]

Thanks for the post.
I am trying to find a link to the truck/camera footage that LE put together and presented in court around March 11.
It is not in the evidence links that bill andrew has created.
A very late starter in the Web Sleuths on this trial.

Found the link on utube:
EXHIBIT #99 (A) -- Video of Dellen Millard&#8217;s hangar the night Bosma is killed.
[video=youtu;H9ZN1qA2lCI]http://youtu.be/H9ZN1qA2lCI[/video]

 

[Arnie M]

Let's face it, the biggest screw up was DM wearing a short sleeved shirt, and using the same burner phone for both test drives.

MOO

.

You nailed it !!!!! .... if not for those 2 things the Bosma disappearance would be an unsolved cold-case today.

.