Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #13

[brightii]

I am not expecting that the defense will focus on anyone being set up or framed. You are right, there wouldn't be evidence to support it. They just need to create a plausible theory that they were not there at the time of the murder. It would become a whole new trial again if they were out to prove the other one did it. It was the Crown's job to prove they did it. Each defense just needs to prove that their client didn't do it. jmo

IMO DM's own letters are evidence that he was not only capable of conniving to set up others, he specifically named MS as a target to be framed, IMO. Also, what has me wondering about MS's involvement is I cannot see anything in it for MS to murder an innocent man for a truck for his friend, DM, especially if the murder was a cold-blooded premeditated act, IMO. I just don't get that feeling about MS, but DM OTOH gives me the willies and has since day one, IMO. I know feelings are not supposed to enter into the picture, but I'm not on the jury, thank goodness, and therefore I allow my gut instincts to help guide me when considering the guilt of both. That's just me.

All MOO.

 

[RandomName479]

I don't think either one was framed. I think they both participated in the murder and knew the plan. Although the jury is not supposed to consider it, I can't help but be aware that this was not the first murder with which they are charged. Even if I believed that MS was not guilty in the other murder(s), I don't think I can believe that he was not aware that DM had committed them. I don't see MS getting caught up in this plan to steal a truck (the one theft in which they didn't involve the usual crew), have a gun and then be caught off guard that DM murdered TB. He was at minimum quite aware of what DM was capable of and willing to do.
What I do think, though, is that it was DM's plan. I think that without DM, the murder would not have happened but I think without MS, the murder still could have happened.
As always, JMO

This. Exactly.

 

[RandomName479]

IMO DM's own letters are evidence that he was not only capable of conniving to set up others, he specifically named MS as a target to be framed, IMO. Also, what has me wondering about MS's involvement is I cannot see anything in it for MS to murder an innocent man for a truck for his friend, DM, especially if the murder was a cold-blooded premeditated act, IMO. I just don't get that feeling about MS, but DM OTOH gives me the willies and has since day one, IMO. I know feelings are not supposed to enter into the picture, but I'm not on the jury, thank goodness, and therefore I allow my gut instincts to help guide me when considering the guilt of both. That's just me.

All MOO.

What is it about MS's character that has you thinking he is not capable of murder? Specifically, the horrific and gory video, his violent rap lyrics, pictures of him with a gun, testimony from HIS friend BD that he was violent and creepy, MM's testimony that he was abusive.....I'm sure there are more examples.....to me these show a propensity for violence......I think DM was the brains behind the operation and the driving force, but I do not see MS as innocent...MOO

 

[andreww]

Long way to go yet.. 2 more trials after this one..

3 more including CNs.

 

[EspressoBean]

IMO DM's own letters are evidence that he was not only capable of conniving to set up others, he specifically named MS as a target to be framed, IMO. Also, what has me wondering about MS's involvement is I cannot see anything in it for MS to murder an innocent man for a truck for his friend, DM, especially if the murder was a cold-blooded premeditated act, IMO. I just don't get that feeling about MS, but DM OTOH gives me the willies and has since day one, IMO. I know feelings are not supposed to enter into the picture, but I'm not on the jury, thank goodness, and therefore I allow my gut instincts to help guide me when considering the guilt of both. That's just me.

All MOO.

I know that DM is capable of setting others up and framing them. But I don't think there is evidence to support that this happened. If MS had been set up and framed, I think that would have been something that he told to MM. He would not have said, I ****ed up. He would have said, DM set me up. I think DM took advantage of MS and knew he had someone who would go along with any plans that he made. I also think MS knew what was going down. I think, although having to dig deep, I'd find that MS has much more moral fibre than DM but if you think MS is incapable of such things, you should check out his videos. Not just the violent graphic one that he is acting out a murder in, but his own rap videos, and rap lyrics. I don't know how easily accessible they are anymore, though and the jury won't get to see any. I understand that it is his "art" but I think watching them makes it hard for me not to see that there is a capacity for something cold-blooded.
jmo

 

[Mikala]

WHERE ONE PARTY CANNOT BE CONVICTED

23.1 For greater certainty, sections 21 to 23 apply in respect of an accused notwithstanding the fact that the person whom the accused aids or abets, counsels or procures or receives, comforts or assists cannot be convicted of the offence. [R.S.C. 1985, c.24 (2nd Supp.), s.45.]

http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/cc/cc.23.1.html

To explain that, Section 23 of the Criminal Code applies to Accessory After the Fact. This provision is stating that it still applies even if the one who commits the initial crime is not able to be convicted for any reason.

As I understand it, this was set up this way to prevent the rare instance where the accused gets off on a technicality of some sort, and so the accessory after the fact walks free too.

 

[EspressoBean]

As I understand it, this was set up this way to prevent the rare instance where the accused gets off on a technicality of some sort, and so the accessory after the fact walks free too.

That is one of the situations that the provision was set up to prevent and also in cases where the person charged with murder can't be found and can't be tried.
But it covers everything which includes the accessory not being acquitted just due to a successful defense of the one charged with the initial crime.

ADD: there was a great link posted earlier with lawyers explaining this provision to the code. http://www.torontodefencelawyers.com/blog/general-category/accessory-after-the-fact/

 

[brightii]

What is it about MS's character that has you thinking he is not capable of murder? Specifically, the horrific and gory video, his violent rap lyrics, pictures of him with a gun, testimony from HIS friend BD that he was violent and creepy, MM's testimony that he was abusive.....I'm sure there are more examples.....to me these show a propensity for violence......I think DM was the brains behind the operation and the driving force, but I do not see MS as innocent...MOO

I don't think a gory horror video is evidence of MS's personality at all. It was supposedly done for Hallowe'en for a friend who makes this kind of movie and posts them online, IMO. Do you think Stephen King has the personality of a murderer because his imagination is so dark and can easily conjure up grisly death scenes and describe them in detail in his fiction books? Millions of regular people have a fascination with horror books, movies and videos and most are not killers and most don't have any propensity for killing innocent people, IMO.

Same argument as above about violent rap lyrics, and they prove nothing about MS's involvement in the murder of TB in my opinion. Both of these examples are actually considered common art forms in pop culture, and IMO most people who partake in making or watching horror films or creating or listening to rap music don't have an actual propensity for violence, IMO - it's just an entertaining outlet for them, IMO. It's not my cup of tea and it's offensive to me, but I know lots of very nice average folks who do like this sort of thing.

Pictures of MS with a gun IMO could have an innocent explanation, among them, it could have been considered a prop for one of his rap videos he was planning to make, IMO. I don't think BD thought of MS as violent IMO, I think he said he showed him some violent videos and that he thought MS was edgy and ill-tempered at times and BD at times felt intimidated by MS, IMO. Had BD actually been afraid of MS I don't believe he would have been happy to hang out with MS on a daily basis smoking weed, IMO. MM's testimony was clarified to say that MS had hit her on one occasion and that she told him there would be consequences and he did not repeat the abuse, IMO. MM came across to me as a feisty character who had no trouble calling out MS on his bad behaviour or BS, IMO.

I think there are so many holes in the testimony of all those involved or associated with both MS and DM and that leaves me with some unanswered questions and with reasonable doubts, some of which I don't feel comfortable about sharing here, IMO. I would not want to have dinner with DM, MS, or ANY of those associated with them, but the trial is about finding DM and/or MS guilty or not guilty of 1st degree murder. A not guilty verdict does not equate to innocence necessarily, IMO, although an innocent person can be found not guilty just as a guilty person can be found not guilty, IMO. I hope a just verdict will be delivered by the jury and I trust it will be, IMO.

I am not trying to convince you or anyone else to view MS as I do, but I don't think yet I can say he is proved guilty, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[mimimic]

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1h1 hour ago
I think there is a good chance Smich and Millard will take the stand. #Bosma

Has anyone else spoke of this?

 

[ILoveDateline]

I don't think either one was framed. I think they both participated in the murder and knew the plan. Although the jury is not supposed to consider it, I can't help but be aware that this was not the first murder with which they are charged. Even if I believed that MS was not guilty in the other murder(s), I don't think I can believe that he was not aware that DM had committed them. I don't see MS getting caught up in this plan to steal a truck (the one theft in which they didn't involve the usual crew), have a gun and then be caught off guard that DM murdered TB. He was at minimum quite aware of what DM was capable of and willing to do.
What I do think, though, is that it was DM's plan. I think that without DM, the murder would not have happened but I think without MS, the murder still could have happened.
As always, JMO

I agree 100%. Is it true, as DM himself states in his letter, that if a death occurs, even an accidental one, during the commission of a crime, that it's murder for anyone involved in the crime? (Or something to that effect). I believe they crown effectively proved both DM and MS planned and were involved in stealing the truck. I would take no solace in knowing who actually pulled the trigger (though i am naive enough to hope that things did get messed up and they did not actually set out that night to kill an innocent man... An yet those priors lurk in the back of my mind) and, IMO, are equally guilty.

JMO

 

[Inspector_North]

Has anyone else spoke of this?

Several reporters on TV have mentioned that they believe it is a possible option. The defence teams are very tight lipped about their options, and one option is having their client take the stand. I'm sure this will be a busy weekend for both teams. Do we or don't we, will obviously be explored based on where the trial landed at this point.

MOO

 

[swedie]

Give her a break. She is an immigrant that arrived in Canada when she was 3, and didn't take law. How the hang should she know that changing witness testimony or wiping fingerprints was evidence tampering? s/off

She was directly involved with DM's strange activity on the 9th, but did not consider one of those activities related to his arrest the next day. She never went to LE, and was arrested almost a year later. Even though on the 9th, she helped move the Eliminator, and it was the focus of this horrific crime in news for most of that time. Instead, she still claimed that it was moved because of creaky barn floorboards that she said she never noticed.

Meanwhile, it was fact that some of Tim's remains were found in the Eliminator. Give me a break! She knows a lot more. Detective 007 is not easily fooled as she demonstrated on the stand. She is a smart evil girl with very poor acting skills.

Going back to the house in the middle of the night to wipe prints conveys a very strong implied message of her knowledge of the crime, and what she was doing was evidence tampering.

MOO

It won't surprise me one bit if MS takes the stand to clear the fog left hanging in the courtroom by CN's testimony (and others). I have no doubt DM confided in MS and filled him in on what was discussed between him and CN, what she knew, her role and the lies she told on the stand to cover her own a$$ (DM's and MB also). In my post from the wee hours of this morning, I responded to MsSherlock's post suggesting it was MS who was with DM May 9th, to help him do whatever at the farmland and then load TB's truck into the trailer. These two were in cohoots and had a big secret to share so why wouldn't DM have informed MS that he confided in CN and was going to pick her up to help him with his "tiny mission" that night after DM dropped MS back off in Oakville, minutes prior to picking up CN. MS will be able to shed light on what CN knew about the truck theft and TB's murder. There were likely times she was present when DM and MS discussed their plans and after the fact. IMO I think MS could blow this case wide open and fill in so many blanks.

At this point MS has absolutely nothing to lose. I'm sure he is looking forward to having his version (the truth) of everything that happened during his stint of being DM goon and yes man heard. There can be no further damage to MS's character and his criminal past, drug and alcohol use, the fact he was a wannabe gangsta, working under the table for DM, helping DM carry out thefts, etc. It's all out in the open now so he has nothing to lose at this point. But that's JMO.

 

[canadiangirl]

Isn't it ironic that until recently CN Instagram was Rubikinks. The little pet name the ex bf she hates gave her. And now she changed it to Sea Enn. Funny how DM on Facebook was Dee Em. Yes you're so over him and you hate him Christina. You're not fooling anyone and I hope you're harassed for the rest of your life like KH because you 2 should definitely set up a play date.

All comments are JMO unless stated otherwise

 

[Inspector_North]

Dell has a lot on his mind these days, and probably can't keep up with style. Let me recommend a suit that will last a rich kid murderer 25 years.

MOO

 

[swedie]

I don't think a gory horror video is evidence of MS's personality at all. It was supposedly done for Hallowe'en for a friend who makes this kind of movie and posts them online, IMO. Do you think Stephen King has the personality of a murderer because his imagination is so dark and can easily conjure up grisly death scenes and describe them in detail in his fiction books? Millions of regular people have a fascination with horror books, movies and videos and most are not killers and most don't have any propensity for killing innocent people, IMO.

Same argument as above about violent rap lyrics, and they prove nothing about MS's involvement in the murder of TB in my opinion. Both of these examples are actually considered common art forms in pop culture, and IMO most people who partake in making or watching horror films or creating or listening to rap music don't have an actual propensity for violence, IMO - it's just an entertaining outlet for them, IMO. It's not my cup of tea and it's offensive to me, but I know lots of very nice average folks who do like this sort of thing.

Pictures of MS with a gun IMO could have an innocent explanation, among them, it could have been considered a prop for one of his rap videos he was planning to make, IMO. I don't think BD thought of MS as violent IMO, I think he said he showed him some violent videos and that he thought MS was edgy and ill-tempered at times and BD at times felt intimidated by MS, IMO. Had BD actually been afraid of MS I don't believe he would have been happy to hang out with MS on a daily basis smoking weed, IMO. MM's testimony was clarified to say that MS had hit her on one occasion and that she told him there would be consequences and he did not repeat the abuse, IMO. MM came across to me as a feisty character who had no trouble calling out MS on his bad behaviour or BS, IMO.

I think there are so many holes in the testimony of all those involved or associated with both MS and DM and that leaves me with some unanswered questions and with reasonable doubts, some of which I don't feel comfortable about sharing here, IMO. I would not want to have dinner with DM, MS, or ANY of those associated with them, but the trial is about finding DM and/or MS guilty or not guilty of 1st degree murder. A not guilty verdict does not equate to innocence necessarily, IMO, although an innocent person can be found not guilty just as a guilty person can be found not guilty, IMO. I hope a just verdict will be delivered by the jury and I trust it will be, IMO.

I am not trying to convince you or anyone else to view MS as I do, but I don't think yet I can say he is proved guilty, IMO.

All MOO.

And how ironic DM was encouraging MS in this area and made him offers of buying him equipment and whatnot. Was DM wanting to be his agent also? Perhaps it was part of DM's strategic plan to make his buddy look like an evil doer and murderer (just as some got the opinion from that video MS was in) should there have been any focus on the three murders DM had already committed. IMO DM was just getting started on the path of serial killer. I have to wonder who he intended for his next victim; MB, LW2, CN, MM? JMO.

According to DM's jail house letter to CN. Snippets. Anyone clear as to the video props? Does it sound like DM was planning on making video projects (pfffftt)? And can we really trust anything DM had to say if these letters?! MOO.
Dell's goal was to make Mark self sufficient. Dell talked of to produce a rap album with Mark. Dell would supply the equipment, and network with others to bring in musical talent. Mark would be the lyrical talent. It was Marks's dream. Dell thought it would be the way to finally make Mark self sufficient. Dell began collecting props for the music videos, and talking with musicians. In February, Dell was complaining to you more about Mark. Mark wasn't putting in as much effort as he was before. In March Mark told you that he didn't think Dell was ever going to get around to making the rap album. That he thought Dell was too busy with his grandfather's company. In February Mark was talking about whether he should stay and make the rap album, or go to Calgary. Mark asked him about the sound studio. Dell said it was on hold. Mark asked about all the music video props. Dell said he could use them in his own video projects. Mark said he felt like he was being cut out. Dell said it was Markk's own fault, that he should spend more time working and less time drinking.

 

[Errrr]

I would be very doubtful that she would take the stand. Particularly after her lawyer has seen just how unlikable she comes across. I also don't think she will need to take the stand. They do not seem to have any actual evidence that she knew the crime had been committed on May 9th when she assisted DM which is needed in an accessory charge. DM's testimony will be torn apart, I'm sure, if he is called to testify. There may be some attempts to prove willful blindness but I believe they would have to prove she knew the murder had occurred. jmo

Is murder the only crime in which you can be an accessory after the fact? And, how far after the fact? She had 11 months to realize she had helped him. During that time she decided for herself what is a crime and what things are evidence.
Perhaps she thought she was only helping out with theft and later found out it was murder as well?
She wondered why DM chose her instead of any other hook-up. Well maybe because of all she knew, he needed to include her so she would keep her mouth shut with the others.

 

[Gibson67]

It won't surprise me one bit if MS takes the stand to clear the fog left hanging in the courtroom by CN's testimony (and others). I have no doubt DM confided in MS and filled him in on what was discussed between him and CN, what she knew, her role and the lies she told on the stand to cover her own a$$ (DM's and MB also). In my post from the wee hours of this morning, I responded to MsSherlock's post suggesting it was MS who was with DM May 9th, to help him do whatever at the farmland and then load TB's truck into the trailer. These two were in cohoots and had a big secret to share so why wouldn't DM have informed MS that he confided in CN and was going to pick her up to help him with his "tiny mission" that night after DM dropped MS back off in Oakville, minutes prior to picking up CN. MS will be able to shed light on what CN knew about the truck theft and TB's murder. There were likely times she was present when DM and MS discussed their plans and after the fact. IMO I think MS could blow this case wide open and fill in so many blanks.

At this point MS has absolutely nothing to lose. I'm sure he is looking forward to having his version (the truth) of everything that happened during his stint of being DM goon and yes man heard. There can be no further damage to MS's character and his criminal past, drug and alcohol use, the fact he was a wannabe gangsta, working under the table for DM, helping DM carry out thefts, etc. It's all out in the open now so he has nothing to lose at this point. But that's JMO.

but what if he did **** up...what if it was only meant to be a truck robbery and his anger got in the way and he pulled the trigger..then what? Do you really think he would get on the stand and tell the truth? Because this is what I think happened..we have heard from his own mouth that he told 3 people he ****ed up. CN, MM and BD. Then in DM's letters he says that Smich ****ed up a truck robbery. I am still certain that is what happened. I don't think it was in the plan to kill TB.

 

[leafs_fan93]

Isn't it ironic that until recently CN Instagram was Rubikinks. The little pet name the ex bf she hates gave her. And now she changed it to Sea Enn. Funny how DM on Facebook was Dee Em. Yes you're so over him and you hate him Christina. You're not fooling anyone and I hope you're harassed for the rest of your life like KH because you 2 should definitely set up a play date.

All comments are JMO unless stated otherwise

Also now, if you look at her most recent post 3 hours ago, there is a solved Rubix cube in the background. Coincidence, or strategic placement making a statement?

 

[leafs_fan93]

but what if he did **** up...what if it was only meant to be a truck robbery and his anger got in the way and he pulled the trigger..then what? Do you really think he would get on the stand and tell the truth? Because this is what I think happened..we have heard from his own mouth that he told 3 people he ****ed up. CN, MM and BD. Then in DM's letters he says that Smich ****ed up a truck robbery. I am still certain that is what happened. I don't think it was in the plan to kill TB.

MM testified that she begged him not to go, and when he said he f'ed up, she felt he was referring to going on the mission in the first place.

 

[canadiangirl]

Also now, if you look at her most recent post 3 hours ago, there is a solved Rubix cube in the background. Coincidence, or strategic placement making a statement?

Good eye. This chick is sketchy as f@$&
There is NO way that is a coincidence