Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #14

[CJPRINCESS]

This is Molly Hayes. Texts are May 3, and it's not clear what if any gaps in time there are between them. YYM is Smich.

Text from YYM: can Marlena reach and chill with Pedo while we do our thing?" YYM sends a photo. #Bosma Apr 19, 2016
Oh sorry there are two photos from YYM. #Bosma Apr 19, 2016
First looks like a tree trunk carved into some sort of bench? Second is of painted tree stump stools? #Bosma Apr 19, 2016
More texts from YYM. Sends another photo, this time of sausages in a frying pan... #Bosma Apr 19, 2016
Millard texts he just finished a 6hr mtg at the hangar. YYM asks him to come scope some of these things and mentions "'missions and more." Apr 19, 2016
YYM says "speaking of scope" he needs some of that mouthwash with the fluoride. #Bosma Apr 19, 2016
Millard phone: "I'm reaching your ways now, ete 50mins." YYM: ok. Millard phone: "be - love you <3" Millard then texts to Lisa. Apr 19, 2016

So reading these tweets. What I'm getting (other then the sausage) possibly sounds like MS wants to go scope out the Wooden seats. He was known to scope things out, mark them with intent to steal them. I wonder if they were internet photos or pics he took while scoping. I honestly do not know what to think about those pics.

All MOO of course

 

[Elisabeth]

So reading these tweets. What I'm getting (other then the sausage) possibly sounds like MS wants to go scope out the Wooden seats. He was known to scope things out, mark them with intent to steal them. I wonder if they were internet photos or pics he took while scoping. I honestly do not know what to think about those pics.

All MOO of course

I think it is better to look at the text messages themselves and not Molly's summarization. The pictures come in the middle of two mission text messages in my opinion: asking if MM can look after Pedo and the request for gloves and tape.

 

[Ontario Mom]

This is Molly Hayes. Texts are May 3, and it's not clear what if any gaps in time there are between them. YYM is Smich.

Text from YYM: can Marlena reach and chill with Pedo while we do our thing?" YYM sends a photo. #Bosma Apr 19, 2016
Oh sorry there are two photos from YYM. #Bosma Apr 19, 2016
First looks like a tree trunk carved into some sort of bench? Second is of painted tree stump stools? #Bosma Apr 19, 2016
More texts from YYM. Sends another photo, this time of sausages in a frying pan... #Bosma Apr 19, 2016
Millard texts he just finished a 6hr mtg at the hangar. YYM asks him to come scope some of these things and mentions "'missions and more." Apr 19, 2016
YYM says "speaking of scope" he needs some of that mouthwash with the fluoride. #Bosma Apr 19, 2016
Millard phone: "I'm reaching your ways now, ete 50mins." YYM: ok. Millard phone: "be - love you <3" Millard then texts to Lisa. Apr 19, 2016

Hmm. Smich asks Millard if MM can chill with pedo while they do their thing & then sends the pics. All in the same conversation? Anything at all said by either of them about the actual pics or no?

 

[hellkat2]

Okay, if you say so, but in reality, what is the big crapping-pants-worthy revelation that you discovered? If he meant 2 minutes, oh well. If he meant 2 guns, where are they. What's the conspiracy?

Why would anyone be surprised that they each had a gun? Why would anyone assume that there was only one gun? Was there not text where smitch was talking about Dellen getting the one he wanted? I think you may be able to take that remark to mean that Smitch got one that was not as good.

 

[brightii]

I've been thinking about MS moving back home to help his mother since she had breast cancer and wondering how much truth there is to this story. Thinking about how stressful it is for anyone dealing with such a diagnosis, and considering that MS was not working regularly or at a regular job; he was drinking and smoking weed with his friends pretty much on a daily basis; he was spending a lot of time with DM at the hangar, Riverside, Maplegate and bars etc.; he had run-ins with the law for impaired driving, had lost his driver's licence, was arrested for graffiti mischief offence with a court date pending; and he had his young and troubled girlfriend who had dropped out of school move into his mother's house (he testified his mother wasn't happy about that), so it all makes me wonder how much actual help MS would have been to his mother, IMO. I think MS, his friends and his lifestyle would have more likely been a source of worry and distress for his mother, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I think it is better to look at the text messages themselves and not Molly's summarization. The pictures come in the middle of two mission text messages in my opinion: asking if MM can look after Pedo and the request for gloves and tape.

Please don't get me wrong, I do believe this was planned. I just don't know to what extent on MS's behalf. We don't have as much on MS as we do DM except for sketchy witness testimony and a few texts and phone pings. I would really hate to be the Jury on this one. I'm a soft hearted person an would convict them BOTH of 1st degree by just seeing the pain of the Bosma's. I still can't even watch SB's plea for TB's safe return home without crying.

 

[brightii]

It's been a good day today on the forum, IMO - lots of various perspectives and respectful discussions, IMO. It's great when we can all feel free to express our honest opinions without anyone suggesting we may be known to one of the accused or supporters of them, IMO. I respect that we are all seeing things and assessing the evidence at our own pace and personally I don't mind that posters may not agree on the guilt of one or both of the accused, it is just really nice to have a place to read and share opinions about the case because for me that has helped my opinions form and evolve. So thanks everyone for your input and for the tolerance and respect shown here for others - it makes the WS experience fantastic, IMHO!

All MOO.

 

[Inspector_North]

Please don't get me wrong, I do believe this was planned. I just don't know to what extent on MS's behalf. We don't have as much on MS as we do DM except for sketchy witness testimony and a few texts and phone pings. I would really hate to be the Jury on this one. I'm a soft hearted person an would convict them BOTH of 1st degree by just seeing the pain of the Bosma's. I still can't even watch SB's plea for TB's safe return home without crying.

And like it has been said many times, the accused do not need to prove innocence, rather the crown needs to prove guilt. MS has had a lot less coverage in this trial, but I believe that they have provided enough evidence for first degree.

MS taking the stand with a story that removes him from the murder and destruction of the body is just that, a story. His story did follow the evidence, and has confirmed (not that there was much doubt) that both he and DM were the only two that night with TB.

For many, it seemed very plausible until he took the stand Thursday morning. Why?

1) It doesn't make sense that he would claim he f-uped to MM, when he said it was because she told him not to go on the theft mission. The day before it was just a scoping mission. Yes I know that they were planning to steal it if the truck passed the test drive with no GPS, alarm, or Ontrack type device. But MM said he f-upd because of the murder, not because he went on the theft mission.

2) His sudden case of amnesia when asked about the gun after detailing everything DM did the night of the 6th was telling. His refusal to even suggest the general area the gun may be, put a big "???" in his testimony from what TD said it would be, the whole story.

He will be drilled on these during cross I hope. But it may be mute once they tear his Wednesday testimony apart.

MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

That's both the brilliance and the curse of the jury system in a way - we bring our own experience with us everywhere we go, and we are unavoidably egocentric in our perception of the world.

Anyway, for those who missed it this was the summary of a person who attended the first day of Smich's testimony who found him credible. For those who missed billandrew's recent post, he was also there and did not find Smich credible.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ich-Defence-commences&p=12548979#post12548979

At the same time, the poster recognized that MS had been coached...

 

[canadiangirl]

And like it has been said many times, the accused do not need to prove innocence, rather the crown needs to prove guilt. MS has had a lot less coverage in this trial, but I believe that they have provided enough evidence for first degree.

MS taking the stand with a story that removes him from the murder and destruction of the body is just that, a story. His story did follow the evidence, and has confirmed (not that there was much doubt) that both he and DM were the only two that night with TB.

For many, it seemed very plausible until he took the stand Thursday morning. Why?

1) It doesn't make sense that he would claim he f-uped to MM, when he said it was because she told him not to go on the theft mission. The day before it was just a scoping mission. Yes I know that they were planning to steal it if the truck passed the test drive with no GPS, alarm, or Ontrack type device. But MM said he f-upd because of the murder, not because he went on the theft mission.

2) His sudden case of amnesia when asked about the gun after detailing everything DM did the night of the 6th was telling. His refusal to even suggest the general area the gun may be, put a big "???" in his testimony from what TD said it would be, the whole story.

He will be drilled on these during cross I hope. But it may be mute once they tear his Wednesday testimony apart.

MOO

Yes I for one was surprised at TD's strong opening of.... THE WHOLE STORY.
Then like a deflated balloon. That was it. Over.


All comments are JMO unless stated otherwise

 

[napper505]

Been away for a few days and missed an awful lot..

Without having to read every thread.

MS testified that they stripped the black truck and put garbage bags into the Red Dodge Ram with a cap on it. Then burned the garbage on the May 9th.

How did the Red truck get to Hanger on or before May 6, 2013 ? I cannot remember the details of the vehicle switch "Villada" White van, Blue Yukon and Red Truck..

Thanks, confused

 

[MsSherlock]

I am very happy that MS has taken the stand and these questions will be asked. Right now, my own little personal Jury is sitting on the fence with this one. TD has set his client up for some brutal cross examination. Maybe it was the only option-maybe it was the right option? This case has invoked such grief and need for closure that IMHO, it's not just good enough to throw the book at 2 guys and put them away for life. One slip of the justice system or one incarceration of an innocent person is bad as well and isn't justice.

IMHO, we as a society have faith in LE and the Crown that people guilty of crimes get locked up. Anyone charged with a crime like this who doesn't end up being found guilty will always be guilty in the eyes of many people. GPM is a prime example- there are still people who believe he is guilty! Then there are the guys who get away with murder because the defence raised enough doubt within the Jury. I have complete faith in the system: if MS's story is solid, it will hold water- if it's full of holes, MS will be looking at a life sentence. Right now, I believe that both here and in the media there's a lot of subjective input as to MS's guilt. I don't have a horse in this race- but I do want to know to the same degree as the Jury: beyond a reasonable doubt- and since MS has chosen to take the stand, I'll wait until the rest of the story comes out to decide. I don't want the guilty to go free and I don't want the innocent locked up. :fence: MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

I can't copy and paste tweets from my iPad to summarize, so I've linked a page where several posts about the fireside furniture and sausages in a frying pan texts are mentioned - no pics have been published anywhere, IMO. What stood out to me is that a poster, gremlingirl, seems to have been really affected by what those texts from MS suggested and I don't know if she's ever posted again, IMO. Her post is #74.

I thought at the time, and for some time after that these texts/pics could have had another explanation, but revisiting those pages in the older thread today, I'm inclined to believe they did have a sick connotation and I think in light of the BBQ texts etc., they were in reference to the incinerator, IMO.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?305500-Bosma-Murder-Trial-04-19-16-Day-37/page5

I think the first mention begins on page 4 but re-reading the thread from the beginning was helpful to me. HTH.

All MOO.

I remember that because I was doing the tweets that day, and I totally glossed over the photos until gremlingirl posted, shocked.

I wonder if the jury was struck like gremlingirl, or clueless like me, when that was presented?

 

[brightii]

I remember that because I was doing the tweets that day, and I totally glossed over the photos until gremlingirl posted, shocked.

I wonder if the jury was struck like gremlingirl, or clueless like me, when that was presented?

Good point, SnooperDuper! I remained clueless about the possible significance until recently, so don't feel bad, you caught on while still on that same page that day!

Maybe it wasn't made much of at trial and if it appeared to have gone over the heads or fly under the radar of the jury, that could explain why TD didn't bring it back up to MS on the stand, and perhaps he is hoping that the Crown won't ask MS to explain, IMO. I doubt very much DM's defence team will touch the issue, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[RandomName479]

I remember that because I was doing the tweets that day, and I totally glossed over the photos until gremlingirl posted, shocked.

I wonder if the jury was struck like gremlingirl, or clueless like me, when that was presented?

I wonder if that's why TD didn't bring it up......maybe it DIDN'T have the same effect in the courtroom and with the jury? I think the pics have sort of gone over my head (thanks to JB for trying to clear it up for me) but I never really saw the same significance that many others did. I'm wondering if some were influenced by comments (like the one by gg on that day) and it has become a big thing on WS but possibly not anywhere else? MSM has not even mentioned them (except in the tweets).....do we think it's out of respect for the family or did they not see it as important? Even the other BRUTAL evidence was discussed in their articles......

Like others, I am waiting until the cross to see how much weight I give MS's version of events.....if he is telling the truth, he should hold up well under cross....if he is lying he should be exposed. If neither the crown nor NS/RP bring up those texts then I think we have given them too much weight. MOO

ETA - brightii - ya beat me to a bunch of this.....

 

[ArianeEmory]

I wonder if that's why TD didn't bring it up......maybe it DIDN'T have the same effect in the courtroom and with the jury? I think the pics have sort of gone over my head (thanks to JB for trying to clear it up for me) but I never really saw the same significance that many other did. I'm wondering if some were influenced by comments (like the one by gg on that day) and it has become a big thing on WS but possibly not anywhere else? MSM has not even mentioned them (except in the tweets).....do we think it's out of respect for the family or did they not see it as important? Even the other BRUTAL evidence was discussed in their articles......

like others, I am waiting until the cross to see how MS holds up.....if he is telling the truth, he should hold up well under cross. If he is lying he should be exposed. If neither the crown nor NS/RP bring up those texts then I think we have given them too much weight. MOO

ETA - brightii - ya beat me to a bunch of this.....

So ... If I'm understanding the way the rest of the process works, the Crown may have introduced the texts hoping the jury would get the gist, BUT:

1) They can't ask either defendant what it meant, not even now that MS has given testimony. Correct?

2) DM's lawyers would have to be crazy to bring it up

So ... It's basically going to remain in the state it's currently in, pretty damning seeming but without further elaboration?

No idea what the jury will make of it. I don't remember gremlin girl's post but I remember being shocked and posting something or other, and being surprised at the lack of other comments at the time it came in.

And the press not making a bigger deal of it doesn't really mean anything since the jury isn't supposed to be reading the news coverage, I assume.

I suppose the Crown could bring it up again in close? Or do I have that wrong.

(What I'm doing here is both trying to guess how the jury reacted, and figure out if they will have further exposure to the info.)

 

[brightii]

I am thinking this evening how my opinions about MS have been evolving and how I've often been influenced by others here to rethink my position(s). For instance, it was RandomName479 who challenged me about MS and the incriminating fireside furniture and sausages texts, among other things, and while I defended my position at that time, I think because I was already beginning to be more convinced of MS's guilt, RN's questioning my stance got me reevaluating things, IMO. I still want to hear MS's answers to questions under cross-examinations, but any serious doubts I had previously are weakening significantly daily and I'm pretty certain that MS was in on the planned murder of TB, IMO. I really don't know why I have a much more difficult time about declaring MS guilty and feeling right about it, but it has been genuinely hard for me to do so, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[Arnie M]

.

Nighttime , dark , outdoors .... Mark can remember seeing DM put a gun in his satchel

Nighttime , dark , outdoors .... Mark cannot remember where he biked to bury the gun

 

[RandomName479]

So ... If I'm understanding the way the rest of the process works, the Crown may have introduced the texts hoping the jury would get the gist, BUT:

1) They can't ask either defendant what it meant, not even now that MS has given testimony. Correct?

2) DM's lawyers would have to be crazy to bring it up

So ... It's basically going to remain in the state it's currently in, pretty damning seeming but without further elaboration?

No idea what the jury will make of it. I don't remember gremlin girl's post but I remember being shocked and posting something or other, and being surprised at the lack of other comments at the time it came in.

And the press not making a bigger deal of it doesn't really mean anything since the jury isn't supposed to be reading the news coverage, I assume.

I suppose the Crown could bring it up again in close? Or do I have that wrong.

(What I'm doing here is both trying to guess how the jury reacted, and figure out if they will have further exposure to the info.)

I don't know enough about the process.....with respect to what can be asked of MS on cross.....

Is anything that has been introduced into evidence so far fair game (i.e. texts and pictures)

OR

Can he only be crossed on HIS testimony?

I tend to think all is fair game and that makes it a huge risk to testify.....for example, if DM had testified, I can see no reason why he couldn't be questioned about his jailhouse letters, even if RP/NS didn't bring them up.....it was introduced evidence and it pertained to him.....MOO

 

[RandomName479]

I am thinking this evening how my opinions about MS have been evolving and how I've often been influenced by others here to rethink my position(s). For instance, it was RandomName479 who challenged me about MS and the incriminating fireside furniture and sausages texts, among other things, and while I defended my position at that time, I think because I was already beginning to be more convinced of MS's guilt, RN's questioning my stance got me reevaluating things, IMO. I still want to hear MS's answers to questions under cross-examinations, but any serious doubts I had previously are weakening significantly daily and I'm pretty certain that MS was in on the planned murder of TB, IMO. I really don't know why I have a much more difficult time about declaring MS guilty and feeling right about it, but it has been genuinely hard for me to do so, IMO.

All MOO.

Funny how the tides turn.......For the record I never questioned you on the pics, bc I really didn't see the significance of them.....but I did question many other things

And now it's your turn to bring me down from the fence. I am surprised myself at my reaction to MS's testimony. Because, as you know, I said minimum of second degree and possibly even first after the Crown had rested....I hope the cross examinations bring clarity for me (and any others who have found themselves in this uncomfortable position) MOO

ETA - maybe I should go back and read some of my old posts.....wouldn't be the first time I've talked to myself......although that is the first sign of insanity I think.....