Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #14

[Ontario Mom]

You just reminded me of something I've been meaning to ask. We never did find out how the rearview mirror got broken off, did we?

Nope, not to my recollection. I just assumed it was removed to swab for DNA evidence.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

The article implies the ring was recovered by LE, however, doesn't explicitly say that. If LE did recover the ring, presumably from the eliminator, why wasn't that used to identify TBs remains? SB could positively ID the ring.

Not that it was necessary. IMO. It's assumed the remains are TB due to the bone fragment profiling and DNA on the outside of the eliminator. I'm just curious why that wouldn't have been used?

Did I miss something?

IMHO, due to the intensity of the heat in the incinerator, Tim's ring would more than likely have melted completely out of shape, and possibly into just a ball or something similar. Sadly, I don't think it would have remained intact as a recognizable ring. Melting point for gold is 1064 degrees C, and if IIRC, the Eliminator was a few hundred degrees hotter than that. MOO

 

[Ontario Mom]

But so many others wept or bowed their heads with guilt because they did not go to police immediately.

I'm not about to defend MS, because from all accounts, 3 years ago, he was a lying, thieving, sneaking, drug dealing creep. He may still be that very same person for all I know, or he may have genuinely changed. Regardless, it doesn't change who he was and what he was involved with on May 6, 2013.

That said, some tweeted (and at least one that was there, who has posted here) imply he seemed remorseful for what happened that night. Is that real, or a show for the jury? I honestly don't know. I want to believe it's real because I want to believe someone in this circle of liars and losers had a heart and a soul and killing people wasn't part of the deal. But what I want to be real may not be.

 

[palisadesk]

Ok, at some point in the last few days I got the impression that the only things that could be brought up in cross were things that MS had actually mentioned in his direct testimony.

That restriction is true in the U.S. (maybe not in all states, I'm not certain of that), but it's not true in Canada. There may be some restrictions on cross-examination that I'm not aware of, but there are many guidelines as to what the cross-examining lawyer should (and should not) do.

This guideline from the Ontario Trial Lawyers' Association is (surprisingly) somewhat humorous but also informative:

http://www.bogoroch.com/media/pdf/crossexamination.pdf

This document is also useful but not quite such a good read:

http://admin.cle.insinc.com/upload_file/document/20100208-162819-32710_14.1_Sigurdson.pdf



One Golden Rule of cross-examination is, Don't ask a question to which you don't already know the answer. So, I suspect some areas which we would love to see the Crown (or DM's team) probe for more details may be bypassed because the cross-examiner does not know the answer to the question he might ask.

ETA: this passage from the second document addresses the MS cross-examination potential, I think (not in every area, but surely in some):

Did the witness give less evidence than you anticipated? If the witness and his counsel forgot to give important evidence, if you cross-examine, you may give the witness an opportunity to give the evidence. On the other hand, the omission may be deliberate. It may have been made to encourage you to cross-examine. You may walk into a field of land mines if you cross-examine.

(bbm)

Should be an interesting day Monday.

 

[Just4TB]

Just one more observation (I think I may need WS detox therapy lol) that came to my mind, perhaps DM's shoulder complaint after his arrest, as noted in his letters to CN, was a legit injury or strain caused by lifting TB's body by himself in the Eliminator, IMO. All MOO.

Dm referenced in the letters, if AM changes his testimony, then DM and MS would be equal. My opinion is that DM's pretend shoulder pain was intended to equalize him with MS.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I've been thinking about MS moving back home to help his mother since she had breast cancer and wondering how much truth there is to this story. Thinking about how stressful it is for anyone dealing with such a diagnosis, and considering that MS was not working regularly or at a regular job; he was drinking and smoking weed with his friends pretty much on a daily basis; he was spending a lot of time with DM at the hangar, Riverside, Maplegate and bars etc.; he had run-ins with the law for impaired driving, had lost his driver's licence, was arrested for graffiti mischief offence with a court date pending; and he had his young and troubled girlfriend who had dropped out of school move into his mother's house (he testified his mother wasn't happy about that), so it all makes me wonder how much actual help MS would have been to his mother, IMO. I think MS, his friends and his lifestyle would have more likely been a source of worry and distress for his mother, IMO.

All MOO.

It is my opinion as well ... You have worded it perfectly. TY

 

[brightii]

I've drained my iPad battery and myself. That's a fact. Goodnight all!

 

[Claroon]

Another stupid move. If the phone had been dumped somewhere else, LE likely would never have discovered the Bobcat dealership video.

Bobcat theft Karma

 

[Claroon]

BD's testimony:


Ann Brocklehurst ‏@AnnB03 Apr 5
#TimBosma trial witness Brendan Daly testifies Mark Smich said "the n____s are coming to get me. I ****ed up." No additional comment


..

Has anyone made a logical guess who the "n_____s" might be? That would be helpful to know. IMO

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I don't know enough about the process.....with respect to what can be asked of MS on cross.....

Is anything that has been introduced into evidence so far fair game (i.e. texts and pictures)

OR

Can he only be crossed on HIS testimony?

I tend to think all is fair game and that makes it a huge risk to testify.....for example, if DM had testified, I can see no reason why he couldn't be questioned about his jailhouse letters, even if RP/NS didn't bring them up.....it was introduced evidence and it pertained to him.....MOO

IMHO, in Canada and the U.K. and other common law countries, cross examination is given much wider berth than in the U. S., where cross-examination of a witness can solely be based upon whatever was brought out in direct questioning.

Here is a wiki about cross examination rules in Canada:

https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Procedure_and_Practice/Trials/Examinations

 

[Claroon]

In regards to theory of TB tossing his own phone...I've always wondered if TB tossed his phone as well. To protect his family.
This may also may answer the many questions of "how could TB'S head be on the dash if he had his seat belt on".

So IF TB felt something was up at that point, he may have unbuckled his belt in attempt to flee the truck.

ETA: See Brightii's post #569 about the assumed struggle.

Yes, that theory was on here before too about him being shot during a struggle. Makes sense the struggle may have occured at Kemira, as once they'd turn down a dark Road TB would know it wasn't good. Good point. IMO

I have 3 theories now of possibles and MS's story isn't one of them. IMO

 

[Tealgrove]

So any thoughts on what DM might do differently in the LB trial? I'm thinking he might want to get a lawyer rather than defending himself and....perhaps he will have to seriously consider testifying and presenting evidence so that MS doesn't throw him under the bus again. I think the fact that MS chose to testify has really taken DM by surprise. MOO

 

[hopingforjustice]

I think calling the doctor to the stand is risky. IMO. What if the doc says he could lift 100lbs or more. MS says he used his shoulder as an excuse not to help dispose of TB but that he did strip the truck. A doctor isn't going to be able to support that story and make a distinction between what he was and wasn't able to physically do. JMO.

Calling Arthur as a witness is possible but I always wondered why he wasn't called by the crown? He is either going to support or deny doing the pickup for MS. We know MS got this stuff so what value does Arthur have. Not much in my opinion.

Let's see how MS handles cross. I feel like the MS's defence might rest. JMO (which chances constantly).

Please please do not tramp on me. I am in no way being disrespectful or judgemental, or trying to start anything, but I wonder if perhaps Arthur has a bit of a disability. MS stated that no one liked him...that he had pity for him..that he "let" him hang around. He felt the need to be honest and told his mother about the gun, MS was regretting asking him to do it. etc. Could be why he could be easily swayed to take part in the tagging and the retrieval and even going to wrong location. If this is the case, I truly hope they don't call him. Putting him on the stand could not not help anyone in this case and could cause him more grief.

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 36s37 seconds ago
"He's a neighbour. A good friend."

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 40s40 seconds ago
Smich started hanging out with Arthur about the same time as Millard. "He's a neighbour, good friend," Smich says.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 33s33 seconds ago
Dungey asks about their friendship. Smich says he was a neighbour. Dungey suggests Brendan Daly had said Smich called Arthur his "*****."

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 23s23 seconds ago
Do you call him your *****? "People didn't really like Arthur. In a way I felt bad for him. I let him hang around with us."

Alex Pierson ‏@AlexpiersonAMP 31s32 seconds ago
Smich says he claimed he got his buddy arthur to pick up the toolbox- smich felt badly for arthur. No one liked him. He took pitty on him.

Lisa Hepfner ‏@HefCHCHNews 23s24 seconds ago
"Do you call him your *****?" People didn't like Arthur, Smich said, and he felt bad, so he let Arthur hang out with him

 

[Just4TB]

If I were LE I'd be grilling the hell out of Arthur this weekend and see if they can get him to admit seeing two guns.

LE shaking down a potential witness, 3 years after the crime and 3 days before testimony? If you were LE, and did that, you wouldn't be LE for long.
LE work is done. It's the judiciary now.

 

[mskrisc]

If I were LE I'd be grilling the hell out of Arthur this weekend and see if they can get him to admit seeing two guns.

Wasn't this testimony earlier on that each owned a gun? DM got the gun MS wanted, and MS got a different gun instead? Where is the second gun, which I'm presuming is MS's gun? Or did MS bury his gun and DM's is still out there? Or yes... Are both guns buried?

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

That restriction is true in the U.S. (maybe not in all states, I'm not certain of that), but it's not true in Canada. There may be some restrictions on cross-examination that I'm not aware of, but there are many guidelines as to what the cross-examining lawyer should (and should not) do.

This guideline from the Ontario Trial Lawyers' Association is (surprisingly) somewhat humorous but also informative:

http://www.bogoroch.com/media/pdf/crossexamination.pdf

This document is also useful but not quite such a good read:

http://admin.cle.insinc.com/upload_file/document/20100208-162819-32710_14.1_Sigurdson.pdf



One Golden Rule of cross-examination is, Don't ask a question to which you don't already know the answer. So, I suspect some areas which we would love to see the Crown (or DM's team) probe for more details may be bypassed because the cross-examiner does not know the answer to the question he might ask.

ETA: this passage from the second document addresses the MS cross-examination potential, I think (not in every area, but surely in some):



(bbm)

Should be an interesting day Monday.

Thank you so much for posting these links ... The Bogoroch one is very humorous, and informative as well!

 

[Oreck]

Originally Posted by Ontario Mom
The way I understood that was that they were going to scope it out (the same way they did Igor's truck) and if DM decided it was the one he wanted, they were going to come back laterthat night, and steal it. Likely in the middle of the night when the Bosmas would have clearly been sound asleep. It makes sense they'd have the RAM plates in the Yukon if that was the plan. It wouldn't surprise me to learn they had the RAM plates in the Yukon on the test drive with Igor as well.

The change of clothes makes sense as well in case anyone did see them, they'd describe two guys in completely different colored clothes, than the test driver guys from earlier.
The text conversation DM had with CN also makes sense - if it's a flop (turned out to be not the truck he wanted) he'd be back in 2 hours (it's just under a 2 hour round trip from DM's former home to the Bosma residence) but if it "goes" it's going to be an "all-nighter".

From Oreck.
I wish we knew if the Bosma truck needed a chipped key as do most Chrysler products since the 90's.
It would make MS a liar when when he says SS taught him to Just pop the hood and hotwire it with a big flat screw driver.

Sorry about my formatting. I don't how to reply to a post properly yet. Lessons are quite welcome.

 

[mskrisc]

It does show that he probably didn't bury the guns before the May 14th surveillance started though. Not sure how he managed to do that while being watched?

I would think it's be fairly easy if you were suspicious you were being watched . Leave out your backyard , hop a fence or two and your on another street. Also, he did this in the middle of the night . Wouldn't be impossible .

 

[Just4TB]

Didn't someone say there were studs or grommets left in there? From jeans or the sheet he was wrapped in? Either of those is only thin metal.

My memory is the grommets were at the burn spot in the field. Assumed from a tarp by many WS

 

[Ontario Mom]

So any thoughts on what DM might do differently in the LB trial? I'm thinking he might want to get a lawyer rather than defending himself and....perhaps he will have to seriously consider testifying and presenting evidence so that MS doesn't throw him under the bus again. I think the fact that MS chose to testify has really taken DM by surprise. MOO

Plead guilty and tell the truth about what really happened? :thinking: