Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #16

[canadiangirl]

I remember this about the missions changing as well but it was AM who told him to F off when dm asked him should I steal from the A hole or the nice guy

That's how I remember it

 

[deugirtni]

I am confused about why no evidence was found in the Yukon. If MS went into the Yukon prior to TB being killed, that would explain it to a point. Then if he followed DM to Bobcat where he changed the plates, still no reason for getting any evidence into the Yukon. But then he follows in the Yukon to the farm. At the farm, DM is said to have wrapped TB into some kind of sheet, and then put him into the incinerator somehow, without MS's help (according to MS). Some say this is impossible for DM to have done it alone. I imagine there was a lot of blood, considering there was blood evidence found ON the incinerator itself, presumably from loading the body into it.

Wouldn't there have been blood on the ground to get onto their shoes? So they burned their shoes? Why was no mention made of the shoes? I'm so confused. I feel like such big holes of information are missing, ie MS sounds like he wore a lot of the same clothing, and it has been talked about how he had limited funds. He is shown in photos to be wearing shoes. If he was short a pair of shoes, wouldn't MM have noticed, and why didn't she talk about this stuff on the stand, ie 'yes, MS had a red hoodie and he wore it that night, and I never saw it again, and same with his shoes'? Presumably their clothing and footwear was burned, but according to MS there was also a lot of blood at the hangar. They took out the carpet there, and the seats, which were reportedly covered in blood. So did they remove their clothing and their shoes PRIOR to doing this cleanup of TB's truck at the hangar? Why were there no blood traces found on the floor of the Yukon from transfer from MS's shoes?

Adam Carter
· Feb 11 2016 4:04 PM
Now being shown photos of the step under the truck's door. There was a little soil found on the step that also tested positive for blood.

 

[andreww]

April 27 - Millard writes "headed to Waterloo, figure out the BBQ situation for this week"

This is the key right here.
- Millard is talking to Smich
- This text is talking about "The mission".
- The BBQ is clearly referring to the incinerator (SS testified to this)
- "Next week" refers to Apr 28 - May 4 (but we know Millard was unexpectedly busy on May 2 & 3, so we can extend to May 6.

In one text Millard has tied Smich to the incinerator and the incinerator to the Mission and the Mission to the date. For all those standing up for Smich, please explain this!

 

[Georgeo]

April 27 - Millard writes "headed to Waterloo, figure out the BBQ situation for this week"

This is the key right here.
- Millard is talking to Smich
- This text is talking about "The mission".
- The BBQ is clearly referring to the incinerator (SS testified to this)
- "Next week" refers to Apr 28 - May 4 (but we know Millard was unexpectedly busy on May 2 & 3, so we can extend to May 6.

In one text Millard has tied Smich to the incinerator and the incinerator to the Mission and the Mission to the date. For all those standing up for Smich, please explain this!

Let's hope the crown mentions this in their closing arguments! This is a very telling quote.... straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I am confused about why no evidence was found in the Yukon. If MS went into the Yukon prior to TB being killed, that would explain it to a point. Then if he followed DM to Bobcat where he changed the plates, still no reason for getting any evidence into the Yukon. But then he follows in the Yukon to the farm. At the farm, DM is said to have wrapped TB into some kind of sheet, and then put him into the incinerator somehow, without MS's help (according to MS). Some say this is impossible for DM to have done it alone. I imagine there was a lot of blood, considering there was blood evidence found ON the incinerator itself, presumably from loading the body into it.

Wouldn't there have been blood on the ground to get onto their shoes? So they burned their shoes? Why was no mention made of the shoes? I'm so confused. I feel like such big holes of information are missing, ie MS sounds like he wore a lot of the same clothing, and it has been talked about how he had limited funds. He is shown in photos to be wearing shoes. If he was short a pair of shoes, wouldn't MM have noticed, and why didn't she talk about this stuff on the stand, ie 'yes, MS had a red hoodie and he wore it that night, and I never saw it again, and same with his shoes'? Presumably their clothing and footwear was burned, but according to MS there was also a lot of blood at the hangar. They took out the carpet there, and the seats, which were reportedly covered in blood. So did they remove their clothing and their shoes PRIOR to doing this cleanup of TB's truck at the hangar? Why were there no blood traces found on the floor of the Yukon from transfer from MS's shoes?

Blood on shoes:
Maybe they did burn their shoes, possibly those were some of the grommets found in the incinerator?

The shoe print on the side step could have been from cleanup? We didn't hear of any other blood found at the hanger either. No foot prints and nothing from the wash down. I found that strange as well.

No blood on the ground:
Either the elements washed away and concrete DNA or the incinerator was pulled into the field where one of the burn spots were? Maybe that's why they chose those spots to burn everything.

All MOO

 

[Inspector_North]

I am confused about why no evidence was found in the Yukon. If MS went into the Yukon prior to TB being killed, that would explain it to a point. Then if he followed DM to Bobcat where he changed the plates, still no reason for getting any evidence into the Yukon. But then he follows in the Yukon to the farm. At the farm, DM is said to have wrapped TB into some kind of sheet, and then put him into the incinerator somehow, without MS's help (according to MS). Some say this is impossible for DM to have done it alone. I imagine there was a lot of blood, considering there was blood evidence found ON the incinerator itself, presumably from loading the body into it.

Wouldn't there have been blood on the ground to get onto their shoes? So they burned their shoes? Why was no mention made of the shoes? I'm so confused. I feel like such big holes of information are missing, ie MS sounds like he wore a lot of the same clothing, and it has been talked about how he had limited funds. He is shown in photos to be wearing shoes. If he was short a pair of shoes, wouldn't MM have noticed, and why didn't she talk about this stuff on the stand, ie 'yes, MS had a red hoodie and he wore it that night, and I never saw it again, and same with his shoes'? Presumably their clothing and footwear was burned, but according to MS there was also a lot of blood at the hangar. They took out the carpet there, and the seats, which were reportedly covered in blood. So did they remove their clothing and their shoes PRIOR to doing this cleanup of TB's truck at the hangar? Why were there no blood traces found on the floor of the Yukon from transfer from MS's shoes?

Not sure absence of biological and/or GSR in the Yukon is of any importance. Both MS and DM were in the drivers seat of the Yukon shortly after Mr. Bosma was murdered and put in the Eliminator.

1) MS drove the Yukon from the farm to the hanger.
2) DM took off for 30 minutes with the Yukon shortly after arriving at the hanger.

So both left no crime seen evidence in the Yukon, but one or both of them pulled the trigger. The lack of evidence in the Yukon at this point proves nothing.

IIRC, although hard to tell if it is red, MS was wearing a hoodie at 1:30 am in the hanger video, but it looks like he was wearing a black T-shirt when they picked up MM in the morning.

MOO

 

[Ontario Mom]

April 27 - Millard writes "headed to Waterloo, figure out the BBQ situation for this week"

This is the key right here.
- Millard is talking to Smich
- This text is talking about "The mission".
- The BBQ is clearly referring to the incinerator (SS testified to this)
- "Next week" refers to Apr 28 - May 4 (but we know Millard was unexpectedly busy on May 2 & 3, so we can extend to May 6.

In one text Millard has tied Smich to the incinerator and the incinerator to the Mission and the Mission to the date. For all those standing up for Smich, please explain this!

First, I don't see anyone on this forum standing up for Smich. Not a single person. Not being 100% certain about how he fit into the plan of killing Tim Bosma and stealing the truck does not mean anyone's standing up for him. And to be perfectly honest, the accusation is getting old. Even the judge in this case has made reference to the jurors towards not forming any opinions of guilt yet (or words to that affect). Once the closing statements are in and done, things might be a little more clear for those of us that it isn't 100% clear to yet. I can only hope this is the case.

Second, that text conversation leaves a lot to be interpreted. Is DM telling MS that he himself is figuring out the BBQ situation? Is he telling MS to figure out the BBQ situation? Why would he tell MS to figure it out if he was referring to the incinerator, when SS testified (not that he's any pariah of truth) that DM was the only one he ever showed how to light/use the blasted thing? Did DM teach MS how to use it? Was he implying he wanted MS to figure something else out, such as generator, propane or something else? Was he talking about an actual barbecue? Just because he called the incinerator a "BBQ" doesn't mean he never actually used those 3 letters to reference an actual cook out. I suspect he probably was referring to the incinerator but the problem is these texts are not perfectly clear to some of us. It's kind of impossible to know exactly what DM was referring to based on 1 line of text.

ETA: I read that text conversation and came away thinking those sausage/furniture pics had some meaning to whatever stupid theft mission MS was all on about that he wanted DM to go with him on, on the 2nd because that's when he sent them - in the middle of THAT conversation where he wanted DM to come check some things out with him. Others read it and are certain it's referring to something else. I'm trying hard to see what others are seeing but it just doesn't click for me. In the end, it doesn't really matter. MS was there, helped, lied, cleaned up, hid evidence and Tim Bosma is still dead. Whatever the jury decides I only hope will be fair and genuine justice for his part in it.

 

[canadiangirl]

April 27 - Millard writes "headed to Waterloo, figure out the BBQ situation for this week"

This is the key right here.
- Millard is talking to Smich
- This text is talking about "The mission".
- The BBQ is clearly referring to the incinerator (SS testified to this)
- "Next week" refers to Apr 28 - May 4 (but we know Millard was unexpectedly busy on May 2 & 3, so we can extend to May 6.

In one text Millard has tied Smich to the incinerator and the incinerator to the Mission and the Mission to the date. For all those standing up for Smich, please explain this!

I'm sorry, clear to who?? April 27, 2013 is a Saturday. As per your own quote, April 27, Millard writes "headed to Waterloo, figure out the BBQ situation for this week"
The way this reads to me is, DM was headed to Waterloo and was telling MS where he was going.

The full context exchange between MS and DM is:
Apr 27 ?? Smich texts Millard: "wuts good then? I'm chillin outside waiting for some ppl then Marlena's got work in a couple hours."
Apr 27 ?? Millard texts Smich: "headed to Waterloo, figure out BBQ situation for this week."
Apr 27 ?? Smich texts Millard: "k cuz then I need a lil bit before I can dip."

There is NO FURTHER discussion about a BBQ that day between DM and MS.

Court now seeking texts between Millard and Michalski from April 29, 30 and May 1, 2013.
by Adam Carter 2:18 PM

The first text is from April 29, from Michalski to Millard. It reads: "How many people you want Wednesday?" This is for planning a BBQ.
by Adam Carter 2:21 PM

Millard responds "5 guys, 10 girls."
by Adam Carter 2:22 PM

"That's the ideal situation for you guys, the more girls the better?" Sachak says. "Of course," Michalski responds.
by Adam Carter 2:23 PM


Sorry if I'm not seeing the same thing, I wouldn't say this is a "ahha" moment for me.
I'm not sure how you concluded the text is talking about "the mission"
yes we know the word "BBQ" was used referring to the incinerator as well, but coupled with AM's texts 2 days later, provides reasonable doubt for me.

(BBM)

 

[Inspector_North]

I'm sorry, clear to who?? April 27, 2013 is a Saturday. As per your own quote, April 27, Millard writes "headed to Waterloo, figure out the BBQ situation for this week"
The way this reads to me is, DM was headed to Waterloo and was telling MS where he was going.

The full context exchange between MS and DM is:
Apr 27 ?? Smich texts Millard: "wuts good then? I'm chillin outside waiting for some ppl then Marlena's got work in a couple hours."
Apr 27 ?? Millard texts Smich: "headed to Waterloo, figure out BBQ situation for this week."
Apr 27 ?? Smich texts Millard: "k cuz then I need a lil bit before I can dip."

There is NO FURTHER discussion about a BBQ that day between DM and MS.

Court now seeking texts between Millard and Michalski from April 29, 30 and May 1, 2013.
by Adam Carter 2:18 PM

The first text is from April 29, from Michalski to Millard. It reads: "How many people you want Wednesday?" This is for planning a BBQ.
by Adam Carter 2:21 PM

Millard responds "5 guys, 10 girls."
by Adam Carter 2:22 PM

"That's the ideal situation for you guys, the more girls the better?" Sachak says. "Of course," Michalski responds.
by Adam Carter 2:23 PM


Sorry if I'm not seeing the same thing, I wouldn't say this is a "ahha" moment for me.
I'm not sure how you concluded the text is talking about "the mission"
yes we know the word "BBQ" was used referring to the incinerator as well, but coupled with AM's texts 2 days later, provides reasonable doubt for me.

(BBM)

Since you see confusion around which BBQ they are talking about, what do you think the texts about the generator are for?

MOO

 

[mimimic]

3500." Smich responds they need a "proper plan" and "can't make any mistakes."

 

[canadiangirl]

Not sure absence of biological and/or GSR in the Yukon is of any importance. Both MS and DM were in the drivers seat of the Yukon shortly after Mr. Bosma was murdered and put in the Eliminator.

1) MS drove the Yukon from the farm to the hanger.
2) DM took off for 30 minutes with the Yukon shortly after arriving at the hanger.

So both left no crime seen evidence in the Yukon, but one or both of them pulled the trigger. The lack of evidence in the Yukon at this point proves nothing.

IIRC, although hard to tell if it is red, MS was wearing a hoodie at 1:30 am in the hanger video, but it looks like he was wearing a black T-shirt when they picked up MM in the morning.

MOO

If MS was in the truck when TB was killed, he'd have blood transfer on him and would've hopped in the Yukon IMMEDIATELY after.
The words "bloody mess" have been pointed out everywhere. I can't see him changing in the field with a dead guy in the truck beside them but what do I know?

DM took off in the Yukon for 30 mins after arriving at the hanger. Since we know he was in the drivers seat of the Ram and a dead TB in the passenger seat, I have no doubt there would be blood all over DM. Regardless who pulled the trigger. That being said, I can't see DM leaving to go anywhere in the Yukon with blood all over him. So I would assumed he changed his clothes or cleaned up at this point.

I think people would look at him suspicious if you walked into a gas station covered in blood. JMO and all speculation of course.

 

[mimimic]

I'm sorry, clear to who?? April 27, 2013 is a Saturday. As per your own quote, April 27, Millard writes "headed to Waterloo, figure out the BBQ situation for this week"
The way this reads to me is, DM was headed to Waterloo and was telling MS where he was going.

The full context exchange between MS and DM is:
Apr 27 ?? Smich texts Millard: "wuts good then? I'm chillin outside waiting for some ppl then Marlena's got work in a couple hours."
Apr 27 ?? Millard texts Smich: "headed to Waterloo, figure out BBQ situation for this week."
Apr 27 ?? Smich texts Millard: "k cuz then I need a lil bit before I can dip."

There is NO FURTHER discussion about a BBQ that day between DM and MS.

Court now seeking texts between Millard and Michalski from April 29, 30 and May 1, 2013.
by Adam Carter 2:18 PM

The first text is from April 29, from Michalski to Millard. It reads: "How many people you want Wednesday?" This is for planning a BBQ.
by Adam Carter 2:21 PM

Millard responds "5 guys, 10 girls."
by Adam Carter 2:22 PM

"That's the ideal situation for you guys, the more girls the better?" Sachak says. "Of course," Michalski responds.
by Adam Carter 2:23 PM


Sorry if I'm not seeing the same thing, I wouldn't say this is a "ahha" moment for me.
I'm not sure how you concluded the text is talking about "the mission"
yes we know the word "BBQ" was used referring to the incinerator as well, but coupled with AM's texts 2 days later, provides reasonable doubt for me.

(BBM)

Does Smich get a little bit(of?) as he says, and then head out (dip) with DM at this point?

 

[canadiangirl]

Since you see confusion around which BBQ they are talking about, what do you think the texts about the generator are for?

MOO

Sorry which texts are you referring to? The ones between DM and SS?
I didn't see any generator texts in the timeline between MS and DM.
So you're saying based on texts alone, SS knew the murder plan then since the texts were to HIM about the generator and the incinerator?

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Not sure absence of biological and/or GSR in the Yukon is of any importance. Both MS and DM were in the drivers seat of the Yukon shortly after Mr. Bosma was murdered and put in the Eliminator.

1) MS drove the Yukon from the farm to the hanger.
2) DM took off for 30 minutes with the Yukon shortly after arriving at the hanger.

So both left no crime seen evidence in the Yukon, but one or both of them pulled the trigger. The lack of evidence in the Yukon at this point proves nothing.

IIRC, although hard to tell if it is red, MS was wearing a hoodie at 1:30 am in the hanger video, but it looks like he was wearing a black T-shirt when they picked up MM in the morning.

MOO

Red hoodie:
How do we know MS has a red hoodie on? My apologies, I forget how we know this. MS said the red hoodie should have been in the Yukon. What color does red show up as in a black and white picture? I'll have to take a pic of my red hoodie and see what it looks like.

In the MM pick up video, it looks like MS has a black hoodie on (looked black to me looked grey to others) then as they pass by the camera, it seems he had taken off his hoodie.

 

[deugirtni]

Blood on shoes:
Maybe they did burn their shoes, possibly those were some of the grommets found in the incinerator?

The shoe print on the side step could have been from cleanup? We didn't hear of any other blood found at the hanger either. No foot prints and nothing from the wash down. I found that strange as well.

No blood on the ground:
Either the elements washed away and concrete DNA or the incinerator was pulled into the field where one of the burn spots were? Maybe that's why they chose those spots to burn everything.

All MOO

I'm sure they *did* burn their clothing and their shoes... however, what I'm saying is that.. the situation was bloody at the farm because that is where the body was pulled out of the vehicle, wrapped in a sheet, whatever, and there was obviously blood around because blood was found ON the incinerator.. but yet there is no blood trace in the Yukon FROM MS's shoes, even though he drove the Yukon from Ancaster, to Bobcat, to the farm, to the hangar. At which point did the shoes come off and get burned? They were still in the midst of cleaning TB's truck while they were at the hangar, so one might assume that MS would still be wearing the same shoes, yet he travelled all that way, throughout TB being shot, and then being put into the incinerator, all without getting any blood on his shoes to transfer into the Yurkon. If he participated in getting the body into the incinerator, wouldn't he have blood evidence on him that would transfer into the Yukon, before he cleaned up?

 

[mimimic]

April 27 - Millard writes "headed to Waterloo, figure out the BBQ situation for this week"If i was on the Jury, these two words would stick out to me on this sentence. situation : I would feel he is talking about incinerator because of Waterloo etc and situation doesn't really feel like a home bbq unless he ran out of propane if not hooked to natural gas, or it broke. and THIS week leads me to largely speculate this is a regular thing and happens often.

This is the key right here.
- Millard is talking to Smich
- This text is talking about "The mission".
- The BBQ is clearly referring to the incinerator (SS testified to this)
- "Next week" refers to Apr 28 - May 4 (but we know Millard was unexpectedly busy on May 2 & 3, so we can extend to May 6.

In one text Millard has tied Smich to the incinerator and the incinerator to the Mission and the Mission to the date. For all those standing up for Smich, please explain this!

If i was on the Jury, these two words would stick out to me on this sentence. situation : I would feel he is talking about incinerator because of Waterloo etc and situation doesn't really feel like a home bbq unless he ran out of propane if not hooked to natural gas, or it broke. and THIS week leads me to largely speculate this is a regular thing and happens often.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I'm sure they *did* burn their clothing and their shoes... however, what I'm saying is that.. the situation was bloody at the farm because that is where the body was pulled out of the vehicle, wrapped in a sheet, whatever, and there was obviously blood around because blood was found ON the incinerator.. but yet there is no blood trace in the Yukon FROM MS's shoes, even though he drove the Yukon from Ancaster, to Bobcat, to the farm, to the hangar. At which point did the shoes come off and get burned? They were still in the midst of cleaning TB's truck while they were at the hangar, so one might assume that MS would still be wearing the same shoes, yet he travelled all that way, throughout TB being shot, and then being put into the incinerator, all without getting any blood on his shoes to transfer into the Yurkon. If he participated in getting the body into the incinerator, wouldn't he have blood evidence on him that would transfer into the Yukon, before he cleaned up?

I dunno, maybe DM went to Walmart to get shoes and no to go get gas. I can only assume the shoes were taken off at the farm or even possibly cleaned off before getting into the Yukon. Or that MS is telling the truth that he didn't help move TB'S body from truck to incinerator.

So many mysteries and not many answers.

 

[Quaere_veritatem]

No, there are way too many unknowns. That's a huge leap to a conclusion.



Yes there's a reason -- because the lawyer believes it's the best chance their client has -- but whether the lawyer believes the client to be innocent is irrelevant. The lawyer's job is to ensure the client gets a fair trial. It's not the lawyer's job to determine guilt or innocence.

I'm still trying to catch up, so my apologies if this was addressed. If the client tells their "story" during the trial it would only be subject to cross examination. Then they can fill in holes and inconsistencies with I don't know and I don't remember. If they come clean sooner, then their story would be subject to LE investigation which could expose the lies and inconsistencies in the story. So if the accused waits until the trial, they will have a better chance especially if their story has holes.

 

[deugirtni]

I feel like discussions (texts) from 2012 might not be related to TB's murder in May 2013. There were 2 additional murders apparently, one in July 2012, and one at end of November 2012. Both of those murders may have required a gun or guns. Presumably the one used to kill WM was taken into evidence by police. Wouldn't that explain more than one gun being purchased?

In all 3 murders, it seems that the goal was to serve DM and not anyone else. LB was DM's lover/problem (for whatever reason), I haven't heard a thing about MS being involved with her; WM stood in the way of DM getting his way, and had nothing really to do with MS; DM wanted a 3500 diesel supposedly because it was cheaper on fuel during his trips to Baha, which did not include MS.

I'm just personally having difficulty in joining conversations from 2012 to proving a murder plan was known to MS for May 6, 2013. And nobody really needs to jump on me for this, we all take away our own conclusions and thoughts and theories from what we hear in evidence, so instead of attacking, it would be good to instead convince me that it proves this.

 

[deugirtni]

I'm still trying to catch up, so my apologies if this was addressed. If the client tells their "story" during the trial it would only be subject to cross examination. Then they can fill in holes and inconsistencies with I don't know and I don't remember. If they come clean sooner, then their story would be subject to LE investigation which could expose the lies and inconsistencies in the story. So if the accused waits until the trial, they will have a better chance especially if their story has holes.

Even more self serving, would be to NOT take the risk of cross examination, nor to take an oath to tell the truth, but yet to still tell one's version of events through the mouth of his lawyer, who can't be questioned. moo