Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #2

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  • #81
I've tried to play devil's advocate in my head with both DM and MS. Problem is, the mental gymnastics are so ludicrous it just doesn't work, in light of all the evidence & testimony.

I'd actually have to question the evidence and assume the lab techs, the variety of experts from blood, GSR, cell operations, etc. are all wrong and clearly incompetent.
I'd have to assume every testimony was either willfully false or at best, mis-remembering things.
I'd have to assume one or the other was under duress and was forced at gun-point to help cover up the crime (incinerator, texts to stay away from the hangar, plans to paint the truck, the lie that the truck was bought in the KW area, truck stripped and concealed in the trailer, the trailer taken to MB's home at 11pm at night under the cover of darkness, incinerator taken back to the farm, then moved into the trees... etc.)
I'd have to assume one or the other was SO scared of the other, even after they parted ways, they still couldn't dial 911 and spill.

Like I said, a lot of ludicrous mental gymnastics on this one. :facepalm:
 
  • #82
With all due respect, if this indeed is the case...there would be no requirements for the incinerator, the txt to tell staff to stay away, hiding truck in trailer at mother's home, etc. An honest respectful person would call the police and give the facts. Simply put, it was my intention to steal the truck but my friend did this...
There comes a point in one's life, (for some later than sooner) where as a citizen, we become accountable for our actions.
There's many cases in which I wish the clock could turn back to July 13, 1976...far less of these crimes would be committed. IMO

The jury will likely be instructed by the Judge regarding evidence of post-offence conduct (aka "consciousness of guilt"). IMO, DM did so much more by way of post-offence conduct than MS. By comparison, the only thing we know that MS did post-offence to cover up the crime was retrieve the toolbox at DM's instruction and dispense with the gun (unless assistance with incineration is considered post-offence as opposed to being part of the crime itself).

Here's a good read on the topic by the former president of the Ontario Bar Association:

http://jmortonmusings.blogspot.ca/2010/10/consciousness-of-guilt-label-should-be.html
 
  • #83
I get where you are coming from, but many times with cases like this people are ready to hang a defended after opening arguments. I like to position myself as a juror, listen to the evidence and make my own conclusion. Evidence in this case is wrong and well put together. I assume that there is even stronger evidence to come. But right now the case hasn't been decided one way or the other. Its not looking good for Millard though.

and I really haven't seen anybody on her believing he's innocent. Maybe I missed it?

There are posters who vehemently believe that DM (alone) is innocent.
 
  • #84
The jury will likely be instructed by the Judge regarding evidence of post-offence conduct (aka "consciousness of guilt"). IMO, DM did so much more by way of post-offence conduct than MS. By comparison, the only thing we know that MS did post-offence to cover up the crime was retrieve the toolbox at DM's instruction and dispense with the gun (unless assistance with incineration is considered post-offence as opposed to being part of the crime itself).

Here's a good read on the topic by the former president of the Ontario Bar Association:

http://jmortonmusings.blogspot.ca/2010/10/consciousness-of-guilt-label-should-be.html

Any way you can put that into English for me? That was waaaay too much legalese for this brain.....post-offence conduct is circumstantial, there can be more than one explanation for it, but doesn't need to be believed beyond a reasonable doubt (unlike the final verdict)? So looking at DM's conduct after the crime one would need to decide if his actions are "consistent with the conduct of a guilty person and inconsistent with the conduct of an innocent person"?
 
  • #85
I think some people may be in denial about DM and MS's circle of associations, hence it's hard for them to picture DM, especially, as capable of having a sinister side.

The word "PACIFIC" that MS wrote on his sneakers, visible at trial, is an association. He is showing he is loyal to it. Whether guilty or not, in my opinion, there is a dynamic going on at the trial, between DM and MS, in opposing loyalties. Perhaps this dynamic is giving the impression that DM might be not guilty. But consider the obvious, if faced with life in prison, wouldn't anyone try to put their best face on and grasp at any straw?

What do you mean regarding the bolded part above?
 
  • #86
Any way you can put that into English for me? That was waaaay too much legalese for this brain.....post-offence conduct is circumstantial, there can be more than one explanation for it, but doesn't need to be believed beyond a reasonable doubt (unlike the final verdict)? So looking at DM's conduct after the crime one would need to decide if his actions are "consistent with the conduct of a guilty person and inconsistent with the conduct of an innocent person"?

I think you just put it into English yourself :D
 
  • #87
Its Smich that doesn't leave fingerprints.

I just wanted to point out that it doesn't mean he didn't leave fingerprints. We may not have heard about them yet. It's possible that the Crown is presenting evidence against DM at the moment, and MS afterwards (aside from the cell phone data). The structure for two defendants varies. It's up to the Crown on how they want to present. DM is listed first which is why RP always gets first crack at cross-examining.
 
  • #88
What do you mean regarding the bolded part above?

I think it's supposed to indicate gang affiliation - or at least gang association. I've never been able to follow that though, it made my brain hurt trying to make sense of it all.
 
  • #89
I just wanted to point out that it doesn't mean he didn't leave fingerprints. We may not have heard about them yet. It's possible that the Crown is presenting evidence against DM at the moment, and MS afterwards (aside from the cell phone data). The structure for two defendants varies. It's up to the Crown on how they want to present. DM is listed first which is why RP always gets first crack at cross-examining.

Never really thought about it that way but yes, that's entirely possible. It's also possible that because he does have a criminal record he did actually wear some handy little black auto-shop gloves the entire time. He certainly had easy access to them. In fact, so did DM, and why he also didn't wear them I think has a lot to do with him being the "hey buddy, how are ya?!" guy that sauntered up to the truck owners like he didn't have a care in the world. Wearing those black gloves would have made him look like a..... criminal.
 
  • #90
I think it's supposed to indicate gang affiliation - or at least gang association. I've never been able to follow that though, it made my brain hurt trying to make sense of it all.

If MS were a gang-banger, IMO, he wouldn't be writing it on his shoes like a high-schooler, or wearing those shoes to court.
 
  • #91
I think some people may be in denial about DM and MS's circle of associations, hence it's hard for them to picture DM, especially, as capable of having a sinister side.

The word "PACIFIC" that MS wrote on his sneakers, visible at trial, is an association. He is showing he is loyal to it. Whether guilty or not, in my opinion, there is a dynamic going on at the trial, between DM and MS, in opposing loyalties. Perhaps this dynamic is giving the impression that DM might be not guilty. But consider the obvious, if faced with life in prison, wouldn't anyone try to put their best face on and grasp at any straw?

BBM - what is this? Where has it been reported that he has this on his shoes?
I have never heard this before... Please shed some light for all of us in the dark, or it could just be me :thinking:
 
  • #92
I am curious if they have the gun? According to MM Smich hid the gun in the forest..so you would think if he was not the one to shoot the gun and DM shot the gun..Smich would tell LE where the gun was don't you think? Because DM's prints would be all over it? DNA?

When MS took possession of the gun, he apparently tried to sell it. No doubt it was wiped down for that purpose. And since he was the last person who had the gun, out of the lockbox that DM supposedly put it in, it would be most likely that only his fingerprints, if any, are found on it. I think he's in a catch 22 position here. Would a jury believe that as the reason why only his fingerprints turn up on the gun?

I think the gun is going to stay buried in the forest.

MOO
 
  • #93
If MS were a gang-banger, IMO, he wouldn't be writing it on his shoes like a high-schooler, or wearing those shoes to court.

well... when one is in jail, they may use any means possible, even if it appears juvenile, to let others on the outside know he is holding on to his loyalty... I am not saying in anyway that MS is a hardened gang banger.
 
  • #94
Here is the thought that is currently swirling in my head and then I'm going to take a break until Tuesday. I think I need the break!

If either one of these guys thought that they were only going to steal a truck, as soon as it escalated to something more substantial, wouldn't you go to the police at the first opportunity? I mean, you'd still be in a heap of trouble but you probably are not on trial for first degree murder. Maybe you have to stick with it for the night so you don't suffer the same fate as poor Tim but the first second you can...do you not go to the police to save yourself as much as possible?

These guys went to Tim's house that night (allegedly) to steal a truck, they killed the owner, drove to pick up DM's personal incinerator, drove to the airport where they...etc. etc. The deeper you go, the harder it is to come back. It's like when you were a kid on a hike into the forest. The further you went, the darker it got and the noises became creepier. At some point you decide it's time to leave before you get so far in you can't get back out. Either one of these guys was so scared of the other that they kept by their side OR this was pre-planned from the get go. It only became hectic after they determined AJ called the police and they had run out of time. MOO
 
  • #95
  • #96
I think you just put it into English yourself :D

So then if I understood it correctly, IMO DM's action after the fact are absolutely consistent with the conduct of a guilty person and are inconsistent with the conduct of an innocent person.
 
  • #97
Does anyone know how long or how far back these digital cell trails can be traced? IMO if DM has the same cell number and they had LB cell number do you think they possibly have this kind of a digital trail for SMICH, DM and LB as well? Even possible DM's cell tower records for the day his Dad was killed. I mean I am so amazed by this and never knew this was done for investigative purposes..but it sure puts a person at the scene of the crime.

Considering that both of these other cases happened less than a year prior to the TB case, and LE finally started actually investigating the WM and LB deaths when DM was arrested for the TB murder, I would think that it is likely these types of cell records would still have been available to them. While there is probably a maximum time period that this information is stored, I would hope that it would be kept for at least a year or two.

I would also think that cell phone records showing DM's phone, MS's phone and LB's phone pinging from the same tower in an area where DM owned a property right before LB and her phone went off the radar forever, might be one of the reasons why they have also been charged with her murder and there is another direct indictment in that case.

MOO
 
  • #98
Considering that both of these other cases happened less than a year prior to the TB case, and LE finally started actually investigating the WM and LB deaths when DM was arrested for the TB murder, I would think that it is likely these types of cell records would still have been available to them. While there is probably a maximum time period that this information is stored, I would hope that it would be kept for at least a year or two.

I would also think that cell phone records showing DM's phone, MS's phone and LB's phone pinging from the same tower in an area where DM owned a property right before LB and her phone went off the radar forever, might be one of the reasons why they have also been charged with her murder and there is another direct indictment in that case.

MOO

Nice catch. Have wondered how they were pursuing the LB case, since all we know (on the outside) is that she went poof, her ex suspected DM pretty early on and even confronted him, and DM bought the Eliminator within weeks of Laura's last sighting. (Which by itself all sounds ominous, but I think that stuff still counts as circumstantial. So I've always wondered what they had that was tangible, since her remains were not recovered, as far as we are aware.)
 
  • #99
I think some people may be in denial about DM and MS's circle of associations, hence it's hard for them to picture DM, especially, as capable of having a sinister side.

The word "PACIFIC" that MS wrote on his sneakers, visible at trial, is an association. He is showing he is loyal to it. Whether guilty or not, in my opinion, there is a dynamic going on at the trial, between DM and MS, in opposing loyalties. Perhaps this dynamic is giving the impression that DM might be not guilty. But consider the obvious, if faced with life in prison, wouldn't anyone try to put their best face on and grasp at any straw?

BBM

Is there any link that shows that this word is gang related?

TIA
 
  • #100
I was struck by the mention of the "statement of fact" from MS re the test drive with Igor Tumanenko. As introduced in court, it says that MS admits to being the back-seat passenger in that drive. It does NOT say that he identified DM as the front seat person, which, from the context of the testimony, it appears he did not. This would suggest why he did not (even if he could) provide the location of the buried gun, assuming it has DM's prints on it. Is he afraid of DM, are they still "friends?" At least it appears so far he has been unwilling to turn against him.

As for a question raised earlier, what would one or the other be guilty of if he just went out to steal a truck and his companion did the murder? Since the (assumed for the sake of argument) "innocent" party went along with the action and assisted in the cleanup immediately, not just later, like CN, and did not appear to intervene or call police, seek immediate medical aid for the wounded, or whatever, he would be as guilty as the aggressor.

Just as in the Bernardo case, it didn't matter whether Homolka or Bernardo actually strangled the girls (FWIW, I am convinced it was Homolka), Bernardo was guilty because he was a partner in crime.

Rick Bullmann's testimony certainly got me thinking. Whatever happened, it seems to me they executed their murderous intention immediately after leaving Tim's house. I drive by that location all the time and am quite familiar with it. Let's say, as seems to be the case, they left the Yukon there and walked to Tim's house. Millard got in the driver's seat when they left Tim's house. He drove back to the hayfield on Book Road. As soon as he pulled in there, Tim would have realized something was radically wrong, and would have put up a fight, tried to escape, or something: after all they said a friend dropped them off. Here was a big red flag.

So they would have had to subdue him immediately he was out of sight. That area is rural but not sparsely populated; people are out and about doing chores etc. so they could not have afforded to use the gun right there, or have Tim yell or call out at the field. Also, a gunshot to the back of the head would not leave the amount of blood subsequently found in the truck. I suspect they used something else, whether the box cutter or a knife, to subdue Tim before they got to the field. Once in the field, they could do some further adjustments to their seating arrangements. If one follows the path there, it winds around behind quite a few bushes (they could even have gone behind the hay stacks) where, without lights, they would not have been visible. We know they didn't stay long, because Rick Bullman saw them within about 15 minutes, roughly, of their leaving the Bosma house.

People have wondered what he meant when he said he saw them driving west on Book Rd towards Brantford but "didn't know which way they turned," as that statement did not seem to make sense. It does if you know the road. Not far along, Book Road comes to a dead end and you have to take a sharp angled turn either northwest towards Alberton or southwest towards Ohsweken.

Once they were back at the farm, or even before, if in a remote enough location, they could have used one or more guns to finish the job. But the amount of blood found suggests an initial jugular job to me, though I'm sure we will find out more. If the box-cutter were the weapon, I would think they would have disposed of it.

I haven't followed all threads here closely, but while I have seen people say they reserve judgement on DM's guilt until after the trial, I haven't seen anyone trumpeting his innocence. Reserving judgment is a fair stance to take. As a member of AIDWYC, I'm quite aware of how even an apparently ironclad case can lead to a miscarriage of justice. I was as convinced as any anyone here is about Millard about Guy Paul Morin's guilt back in the day. Then we learned of all the police bungling, Centre for Forensic Sciences mistakes and contamination of evidence, and much more. And in Steven Truscott's time, the feeling was the same, absolute certainty that the fiend had been found. 50 years later, we find that documents were altered, various perjuries committed, and more. Now Lynn Harper's family will never know who her killer was.

I can't imagine what exculpatory evidence the defense could bring forth (an unexpected identical twin? Alien abduction?) but I will consider it if it comes. Meanwhile, it is gratifying to see how many of the improvements suggested by the Kaufman Report into the Morin case, and the Galligan report into the Homolka case, have been incorporated into police work and case preparation, thus making such miscarriages (on the one hand) and bungling failures to convict (on the other) far less likely now than previously.

Unfortunately, what the trial may never tell us, unless one or the other accused decides to talk, is WHY? That question must torment the Bosma family.
 
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