British student murdered in Perugia, 3 suspects

[kitbits]

Just a couple of things i want to say about your post quickly. Yes the "Paki" word was used a lot 20 or so years ago. Until 8 years ago i lived in a city very populated with Asians. There was over 10 thousand apparently. I never once heard the word paki in all the time i lived there and in addition you can get taken to court for calling someone that.

Regarding the BNP that is just a small minority group in Britain that are total morons and should be banned. I think some of the problems we have here at the moment are causing unrest so more join them thinking they have a point. But really they dont

Isabella, well, perhaps it depends on where you live? This was in Newcastle and just a few short years ago & working for the local authority. And also, I dated an Indo-Anglian chap who used to be called a 'black ' by colleagues when he worked for Royal Mail, less than 20 years ago. And Panorama recently broadcast a programme documenting the harrowing experiences 2 undercover Asians (man & a woman) went through living on a council estate in Bristol. Both were subjected to some very menacing behaviour, called 'Pakis' and much worse on many occasions and the man was assaulted. For no reason than just existing, I guess.

I realise the BNP and other groups are in the minority (but their numbers have grown a bit & you're probably right as to why...I wouldn't let my guard down, personally, though. I'm an immigrant, but because I'm white & speak English, I've heard people badmouthing immigrants over here in front of ME...I guess they reckon that I don't count & I didn't take anyone's job for some screwy reason I cannot fathom. This is another good example of the BNP stirring up hatred--those immigrants taking our jobs, especially in this economic downturn!

I still feel that, in general, attitudes are no more enlightened with regards to racial stereotyping in Europe than in America. Just because a person doesn't use the 'P' word or the 'N' word outright, doesn't mean these sentiments aren't there...it's just a bit more subtle sometimes. You'd be amazed at how many people don't realise that saying something seemingly innocuous like, 'Blacks have good rhythm' is a racial stereotype & offensive.

I'm not saying we're surrounded by the KKK or Aryan Nations...I'm just saying that it exists & more so than people realise or are willing to admit. It's just my opinion, based on academic study & personal observations.

OK...enough of me being off topic! happy to carry on elsewhere, though--have soapbox, will travel

 

[Columbo]

Regarding the bathroom and the blood, here is a link to a YouTube video showing what Amanda *actually* saw in the bathroom when she showered. The video is from actual police video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1orfm9fdBCI

Here are some screen shots from that video:

Bathroom photo released to press (after police had sprayed it with chemicals):

The sink as Amanda saw it:

The bidet as Amanda saw it:

The drain of the bidet as Amanda saw it:

Here is a photo of the bloody footprint on the bathmat. I can see how this might be overlooked by a young girl. As a 38 year old woman and mom of 2, I would probably notice it, but as a college student, I probably would not. Or, if I did, I probably wouldn't give it much thought. And, if the reports are true that Amanda was messy, it probably would have even been less notable to her.

I can honestly say that I would have showered in this bathroom without any thoughts at all.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but how does police video end up on YouTube? (and maybe it doesn't matter anyway...)

 

[Steely Dan]

When was the last time you saw an action movie where the hero and heroine did NOT stop to have sex in the middle of the slaughter? Those aren't real people, of course, but the stories are archetypal and are shaped the way they are because they resonate with a lot of people.

We may not like to admit it, but psychological accounts, war journals and world literature are filled with countless examples of people finding relief from death in sex. It isn't necessarily death that turns them on, it may very well be surviving death, as sex can be very life-affirming, even if unconsciously.

Freud was well aware of this: he described the life (eros) and death (thanatos) impulses as in constant opposition, but also in a sort of partnership.

I was saying what I myself would feel and how because of that I found it hinky.

I heard this on 48 Hours. I'm not sure what the discarded cell phones mean. Do you (or anyone else) have a theory?

As for the 911 call, police everywhere jump on such inconsistancies as "proof" of guilt. Yet human beings are fallible in the extreme; when prosecution witnesses make mistakes, the errors are always portrayed as "incidental" to the truth.

The discarded cell phones are a mystery. I'm not sure what they mean, it's just another brick of the circumstantial case. I don't think AK ever gave an answer for why were there.

Again, people make mistakes. But that includes cops and prosecutors.

It includes everybody. It's much easier for us to believe the Italians are corrupt than it is to believe that a young doe eyed American girl is. It seems that a lot of people in America are looking at all of the exculpatory evidence and not all of the evidence.

Apparently, Judge Judy was never a college-age youngster. The lifestyles of that age group can be surprisingly casual, particularly when they live together away from parents. The open door may have been unusual, but that doesn't prove AK thought it required immediate action from her. Hindsight, of course, is 20/20.

I was a college aged youngster, who lived off campus, and this is how I would have reacted. First I'd look around to see if any of my roommates were around outside or inside. Including knocking on their doors. I would be pissed. Somebody could come in and steal my stuff or worse. I would definitely want to know how long that door had been open. It's my experience also that most of my college aged buddies would have done the same thing.

You and I have discussed the possibility of coercion and I'll join you in declining to rehash.

But I have a question: what is the time period of her multiple stories? Do they all stem from the general time of the initial interrogation? To me, that isn't as damning as switching stories and conveniently remembering and forgetting after one has been prepped for trial. (See Darlie Routier transcript.)

I don't know about all of them but her story on her boss changed after it was proven it couldn't have been him. How can you not recognize your boss?! A guy you see probably at a minimum three times a week?

Since the job at the bar wasn't a longtime one and hardly a career-path position, that's a pretty thin motive for murder, don't you think? (Not saying it couldn't be true, just that it isn't an experienced professional facing the destruction of her career.)

Finding a lucrative job as a college student is tough. She got tips, and I'm guessing good tips, from flirting with her customers. JMO

Her next choice, if she couldn't find another bar job would be a lot less well paid.

I'm also thinking that her getting fired and Meredith getting hired would be very embarrassing.

I don't think any of this is the sole reason for her behavior. It's building a wall brick by brick until the wall can stand on it's own. The defense is going to try and tear down the wall, just as they would here, by using anything they can. True or not.

Do you know how well she tried, how long she spent trying? I'm wondering because not everyone reacts to violence by immediately thinking to preserve the crime scene. Some people react to shock instinctively by trying to remove the source of that shock.

Well we know she claimed to have come back to the apt. at 10:30am. She said she was asleep til just before then, IIRC. We also know that a shopkeep says he's pretty sure it was her who was waiting for him to open up and ran in for cleaning supplies at 7:45am. The receipt for these supplies with a time stamp matching the shopkeeps memory were found in her or her boyfriends possession.

My opinion is that they committed the murder and looked around. They realized there was a lot of evidence and decided to clean it up. AK got the cleaning supplies and they tried to clean it up. However, it was too much for them to do and so she popped into the shower to clean herself up while her boyfriend went home. Then...

Um, guilt by association? The conviction of the boyfriend may suggest that more is going on here than anti-American feeling, but there's no particular reason why he can't have been railroaded, too.

True, but it doesn't pass the smell test. His father is uber wealthy and he has a relative in the police force. All of his father's money and his ties to the PD couldn't get him off which, IMO, means they had a solid case against him.

I understand skepticism toward her claim, but how is that evidence of her guilt in the murder? As I wrote above, in the trial snip I saw, she said being hit frightened her, not that it scarred her. As for collaboration, who was going to do that? I assume you don't expect police officers to come out and announce, "Yeah, we slapped her around a bit."

I also don't believe she'll come out and admit to lying about it. A small slap can't be verified and, as far as I know, there are no pictures of bruises on her.

But that's a lot, Dan. I really appreciate you and Isabella and your efforts to bring the rest of us up to date.

We are here to discuss this case from many different angles. That's what makes it interesting. :thumb:

Then why did they bother questioning her for 53 hours? Oh, I know: they were looking for inconsistencies they could exploit. It worked.

We don't know what the police said to AK, do we?

What CBS reported, IIRC, is that AK sent PL a text message earlier in the day that read, "See you later." That's a common Americanism, BTW, which doesn't necessarily mean the speaker plans to see the listener at any particular time. However, the police interpreted the text to mean AK and PL had plans to join up during the evening of the murder and confronted AK with this "fact." At some point, she then accused PL.

I'm not defending her for doing so, but in coerced statements, it is often the police who propose something and then breakdown the witness until s/he concedes the point.

I heard somewhere, can't find it now, that the 53 hour questioning took place over a few days. She had time to get sleep and solidify her story and she still couldn't keep things straight.

I guess it's a chicken/egg question. Did they interrogate her to try and coerce her or did they interrogate her because, like KC Anthony, she was all over the place with her answers.

This is interesting. I came across it recently.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1185719/us_slaying_suspect_questioned_6_hours/index.html

Investigators said Knox started crying when she was asked why she had accused a Perugia pub owner, Diya "Patrick" Lumumba," of the slaying.
_____________________________________

After a break following the tears, Knox declined to answer any more questions, the investigators said, adding that she had difficulty answering when she was confronted with past conflicting statements.

Here is a picture of the bathroom....on the left..
this is where Amanda showered...the other pic on the right is Meredith's bedroom

and the link to this and other pics is here >>


Is this the pic of the bathroom where she took a shower?????? If so I am shocked I thought she might have been innocent until I saw this picture.

So what looks like blood? Is the spray pink? Or does it turn pink when it comes in contact with bodily fluids?

I believe it's a chemical that shows where blood that has been washed off and is not visible to the naked eye. It was not nearly that bad when she went into the bathroom to shower. IMO.

The big question is; who washed it off. I believe AK did the cleaning before taking a shower. JMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

IMO All of that pink you see is exactly what Amanda saw....before she started cleaning....and it wasn't pink..it was indeed blood

 

[Nova]

NOTE: every quote from Dan's post is excerpted here so that it is clear what I am responding to. I've omitted some of his points where I think he and I disagree but have no way to settle the difference with any certainty (i.e., potayto/potahto and there's no reason for me to simply rehash what I said before). Please see his entire (and excellent) post above.

I was saying what I myself would feel and how because of that I found it hinky.

I understand, Dan, and I think I would feel the same. I was merely pointing out the volume of material (factual and fictional) which suggests many people turn to sex as an escape from death. (I realize fictional accounts aren't usually considered evidence; I mention them only because they suggest some people (artists and audiences) recognize the response.)

It's much easier for us to believe the Italians are corrupt than it is to believe that a young doe eyed American girl is. It seems that a lot of people in America are looking at all of the exculpatory evidence and not all of the evidence.

I've been very careful not to suggest Italians or Italian LE are especially corrupt. Nor have I blamed the Italian judicial system; on the contrary, I don't see a single claim against the LE in this case that couldn't be leveled against LE in other places, including the U.S. I've been to Italy. I don't find Italians barbaric or so alien to us that they would knowingly imprison a young woman just to get back at George Bush.

But while it might comfort us to believe LE is always right and their processes are always above-board and efficient in determining the truth, we should know better. There are too many examples to the contrary.

Finding a lucrative job as a college student is tough. She got tips, and I'm guessing good tips, from flirting with her customers.... Her next choice, if she couldn't find another bar job would be a lot less well paid.... I don't think any of this is the sole reason for her behavior....

My experience of the restaurant/bar industry is that employment is rather fluid. That isn't to say that AK couldn't have overreacted, just that I don't find this theory of motive very convincing; particularly not when one considers the overall theory that a group of three came together to commit the crime. If this was indeed a mob of three run amok, then a murder-for-hire (or revenge) motive strikes me as unlikely. Prosecutors can be all too happy to invent clear, direct motives because they know jurors like them.

Well we know she claimed to have come back to the apt. at 10:30am. She said she was asleep til just before then, IIRC. We also know that a shopkeep says he's pretty sure it was her who was waiting for him to open up and ran in for cleaning supplies at 7:45am. The receipt for these supplies with a time stamp matching the shopkeeps memory were found in her or her boyfriends possession.

I didn't know about the time-stamped receipt until you and some other posters mentioned it. That does indeed back up the shop owner's recollection and make this claim more damning.

My opinion is that they committed the murder and looked around. They realized there was a lot of evidence and decided to clean it up. AK got the cleaning supplies and they tried to clean it up. However, it was too much for them to do and so she popped into the shower to clean herself up while her boyfriend went home. Then...

This makes sense to me and seems emminently possible.

True, but it doesn't pass the smell test. His father is uber wealthy and he has a relative in the police force. All of his father's money and his ties to the PD couldn't get him off which, IMO, means they had a solid case against him.

Or a famous prosecutor was single-mindedly determined to prove he hadn't made a mistake. But I agree that the prosecution of RS makes it difficult to attribute this case to anti-Americanism.

I also don't believe she'll come out and admit to lying about it. A small slap can't be verified and, as far as I know, there are no pictures of bruises on her.

I certainly admit the possibility that AK is lying about the physical abuse, but I'm also not so naive as to think such things don't happen (and not just in Italy, of course). My understanding of the testimony I saw wasn't that she was literally beaten into making one statement or another, but that she broke down under the pressure of the process. This could also be a lie, but it is also something that happens during interrogations, and it is one explanation for the conflicting and false statements.

I heard somewhere, can't find it now, that the 53 hour questioning took place over a few days. She had time to get sleep and solidify her story and she still couldn't keep things straight.

I don't have a cite, but one of the links in this thread says "53 hours over 5 days". That's nearly 10 1/2 hours per day, shortly after a traumatic event. I don't think we should kid ourselves that we know how we would hold up or respond under that sort of pressure.

 

[Steely Dan]

Good post Nova.

It seems we are coming closer to each others views.

 

[kemo]

The "pink" color is not blood, its luminal. While the picture may be misleading, the jury was shown both the "pre-luminal" and the "post luminal" photos so they knew what was going on. The phots prove there had recently been a great deal of blood; both Merideth's and Amanda's that had been cleaned up. There could have been an "innocent" explaination for this but there was also very strong evidence that Amanda bought "cleaning supplies" at 7:45 that morning.

 

[Nova]

Have you actually read any of the "facts" about this case?.... Before I post on a subject I try to do some research, read various articles, and check around on the net. That way at least I can post some facts hopefully, not just my own "thoughts"

LM, I've been careful to the point of tedium to explain what "facts" I think I know and where I got them. I've been equally candid as to what I don't know.

I saw a news account on TV that painted the entire affair as a case of rogue prosecution and anti-American blowback. Included in that presentation was a claim that most of the commonly known "facts" are actually prosecutorial inventions spoonfed to European tabloids.

Rather than assuming that was a fair summary of the matter, I came here to learn more. I went back six months in this thread and read forward, including numerous links. But most of what I encountered were either editorials and blogs railing against the Italians, or posts insisting AK is guilty because she did cartwheels and wore certain colors to court.

I'm very uncomfortable with such "affect" evidence because I doubt the ability of anyone to know what is a "normal" response. (And I very much appreciate that in another post, you decline to use such evidence to make a case for AK's guilt.)

I still refuse to assume this was a miscarriage of justice and have been asking questions of posters such as yourself and Isabelle. I believe I have been entirely respectul of and humble before such posters' knowledge of this case. On occasion, I have asked where certain claims originated and I have suggested alternate interpretations of reported behavior, but I have never questioned any poster's expertise in this matter, nor have I demanded that anyone "prove" what he or she knows.

As such, I don't think it's necessary for you to lecture me on how things work here. If it's too much trouble to reply to a post of mine, by all means ignore it.

THAT BEING SAID, you did respond and I appreciate it. You (and others) have convinced me that the apparent post-murder clean-up and staged break-in are indeed troubling. If you know where I can read what the defense said about these things, I could love to know it.

 

[Isabella]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but how does police video end up on YouTube? (and maybe it doesn't matter anyway...)

The person claims its a police video..has it been confirmed? I thought the idea of the video was to try and disprove the Mail article.

 

[Nova]

My math above was off. "53 hours over 5 days" is slightly more than 10 1/2 hours per day, not less.

(I swear I finished elementary school, despite such evidence to the contrary.)

 

[Steely Dan]

LM, I've been careful to the point of tedium to explain what "facts" I think I know and where I got them. I've been equally candid as to what I don't know.

I saw a news account on TV that painted the entire affair as a case of rogue prosecution and anti-American blowback. Included in that presentation was a claim that most of the commonly known "facts" are actually prosecutorial inventions spoonfed to European tabloids.

Rather than assuming that was a fair summary of the matter, I came here to learn more. I went back six months in this thread and read forward, including numerous links. But most of what I encountered were either editorials and blogs railing against the Italians, or posts insisting AK is guilty because she did cartwheels and wore certain colors to court.

I'm very uncomfortable with such "affect" evidence because I doubt the ability of anyone to know what is a "normal" response. (And I very much appreciate that in another post, you decline to use such evidence to make a case for AK's guilt.)

I still refuse to assume this was a miscarriage of justice and have been asking questions of posters such as yourself and Isabelle. I believe I have been entirely respectul of and humble before such posters' knowledge of this case. On occasion, I have asked where certain claims originated and I have suggested alternate interpretations of reported behavior, but I have never questioned any poster's expertise in this matter, nor have I demanded that anyone "prove" what he or she knows.

As such, I don't think it's necessary for you to lecture me on how things work here. If it's too much trouble to reply to a post of mine, by all means ignore it.

THAT BEING SAID, you did respond and I appreciate it. You (and others) have convinced me that the apparent post-murder clean-up and staged break-in are indeed troubling. If you know where I can read what the defense said about these things, I could love to know it.

IMO, you always should. Some people, including myself, have poor memories. Others just make crap up. Nobody here I've found, but it does happen.

The person claims its a police video..has it been confirmed? I thought the idea of the video was to try and disprove the Mail article.

The video, IMO, is definitely pre-Luminol. The floor has a #9 card on it and I'm assuming that was put there by police. Like any good PD they wanted a before and after the Luminol spraying. JMO

 

[arielilane]

I have yet to see any evidence and truthful motive established for Amanda Knox to have committed this crime.

 

[Infojunkie]

Thanks for that video....I am sorry I posted the other pics they are from a British newspaper

yes, the video does look different...I will search around for another picture I remember seeing not too long ago however, of blood streaks on the walls

I wonder if the "cleaner" bathroom is what she cleaned up..and washed herself?? I wonder if the Italians checked the drains like they might do here?

Can you share why YOU think that the guilty verdict was correct??

MY own feelings came from the timeline of how long they messed around before calling police...seems the "postal police" came upon Amanda and Rafaelle
'
Why would anyone wait so long? why go in an apt with a broken window, messed up room *the Italian roommate....open door..and take a shower??

I do feel the broken window is important...it was 15 feet about the ground, under a highly sloped eave...and the glass went "outward" ...like someone broke it from inside??

The turning off of both their cell phones within minutes bothers me. I don't know what her normal cell phone behaviour is though. The video of AK entering the home that evening. The knife with AK's and MK's DNA on it. So many individual things that when taken together leaves me feeling that the verdict was logical.

The broken window thing as well for me. As well as the roomates room being ransacked but nothing taken even though there were valuables in plain sight (I cannot remember which article I read this in) and the fact that the glass was on top of the clothes and the roomate said she hadn't left her clothes strewn about.

And why you would enter your home when the door that is normally closed is wide open and then you are confronted by a broken window? Why would you just go have a shower, even if she wasn't concerned about MK was she not concerned for her own safety? She had to pass by that room, a ransacked room to get to the shower.

I still have a lot of reading to do, but it gets difficult to find places that will just share evidence without leading me to the opinion of the author...I prefer to come up with my own opinions. :banghead:

Eesh...sorry so long!

 

[Steely Dan]

I have yet to see any evidence and truthful motive established for Amanda Knox to have committed this crime.

Same here, but the motives are all "could be's" because she won't cough up a motive. IMO, the evidence proves she was heavily involved in all of this. I'd like a motive but I don't need one to find her guilty.

 

[SleuthyMama]

Just wanted to bump the link that Isabella posted pages back. http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C356/

I have followed this case since the beginning. Not as closely as I would have liked to but I do have a general knowledge of the basics. Isabella's link however, provided some tidbits and insight I hadn't seen before/hadn't given thought to.

That being said, it is my opinion that Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy are all guilty.

 

[arielilane]

The broken window is 15 feet over a steep slope, not a plausible way in. The authorities believe the so-called break-in was staged, suspicious from first glance.

From Cliff Van Zant, noted FBI profiler who seems to think Amanda is guilty...good article from MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22332240//

the "break in" was so totally "staged

I did not interpret that Cliff Van Zant thought Amanda Knox was guilty. Even if he did, which he did not; I wouldn’t give him much creditability. Insert: John Douglas and the Ramseys. I lost a lot of respect for John Douglas and his profession due to his example - if the price is right…However, I know not all are like him.

 

[2goldfish]

The "pink" color is not blood, its luminal. While the picture may be misleading, the jury was shown both the "pre-luminal" and the "post luminal" photos so they knew what was going on. The phots prove there had recently been a great deal of blood; both Merideth's and Amanda's that had been cleaned up. There could have been an "innocent" explaination for this but there was also very strong evidence that Amanda bought "cleaning supplies" at 7:45 that morning.

interestingly, luminol will also react to more than just blood - including bleach. so while I agree the bathroom was cleaned of bloods, if you look at the way the pink looks, it's possibly a hefty mix of blood and bleach from cleaning supplies (if whatever was used to clean with contained bleach of course) ...done in a not very thorough manner - because it was only spot cleaning where the blood was? who knows?

I always found that interesting and not a lot of resources on it. I mean assuming I murder someone and clean with bleach, does LE just assume it is all blood, all bleach, or what? and can they test aside from that to determine which?

 

[Albert18]

It doesn't matter what Amanda may have seen or not seen when she took a shower. It really doesn't matter.

What the photo and video show is that there was a cleanup. This matters. This was not a crime scene cleanup, this was a partial crime scene cleanup. This is a big deal.

At the very least it tells you Guede didn't act alone. This matters.

So all these hack US journalists and others trying to pin this entirely on Guede don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Brwnigirl]

This case does not add up for me. I am leaning towards no involvement by Amanda which I am sure won't be popular here. Just don't see the evidence of it. I cannot find the following:

Is there a link to the text messages exchanged in the preceding days before the murder between Amanda, Meredith, Raf?
What was the relationship between this Rudy guy and Amanda if any?
Whose foot does the footprint match on the bath mat. What are the sizes of Raf or Rudy?
Is anyone disturbed that the prosecutor seems to have a history of trying to link crimes to satanic activity when there is no evidence of that?

I think it is possible that Rudy followed Meredith home, raped her and killed her. The most significant thing here is his semen, definitely evidence, is there.

Wonder what we would be talking about if the police had filmed their interrogation.

 

[arielilane]

Absolutely, makes no sense that Amanda Knox would murder her friend, her roommate over a job. A job that she was not in jeopardy of losing.

Meredith was possibly going to be added to the staff because of a drink she made.

In addition, it makes no sense that she was killed because she wouldn’t partake in a sexual affair with three others. No DNA belonging to Raffaele Sollecito was found on Meredith (the bra clip thingy is not applicable). Amanda roomed with Meredith and Amanda slept with Raffaele. DNA will mix and be inconclusive.

However, Rudy Guede’s DNA was found in Meredith. Rudy has never implemented Amanda or Rafaela.

One has to ask why Rudy would not call for help after witnessing what he stated he witnessed (the murder of Meredith). Instead he flees…

Rudy’s history is not spotless.